Incentivizing Bitcoin Nodes

[TransaDox]

And the school pf thought seems to be that we need to pay people so they keep their making their throne bigger rather than keeping the system small enough to still run on a mobile phone.

You're in denial.

A mobile phone is the wrong use-case for a full node. Mobile phones run on batteries and need to sleep as much as possible. A bitcoin node needs to actively process transactions 24/7. A mobile phone is a good place to run a SPV node. My SPV node uses 15 MB. It does everything it needs to.

There is no use case for a full node. It is a required part of the infrastructure. If  it cannot run on a mobile phone then just use a web wallet and let the miners - who actually do need them and have lots of hardware - run the full nodes. If you come back and say "but, but, but...decentralization". That boat sailed long ago with mining.

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[rico666]

You guys with your $20 hard drives and your weird cost computations are a bunch of miserable lowlifes.

That's where I currently run my VMs on:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/system/2U/2028/SYS-2028TP-DC1FR.cfm

The cheapest SAS 2TB Hard drive costs around 340 EUR in Europe

http://geizhals.de/seagate-enterprise-capacity-2-5-512e-sed-2tb-st2000nx0343-a1202542.html?hloc=de

Then you run the HDDs of course in a RAID configuration, so the net capacity you get is less than what you read on the box.

Ok - I admit - the /scrap partition I use for the blockchain is a non-RAID configuration on even cheaper WD-RED hard drives (960GB around $60). Your cost computations are still nothing but ridiculous.


and hey @franky1: Since when do the HDDs alone the job? Isn't some CPU, Memory, mainboard, network, internet cost, power cost necessary too?


Rico

[Syke]

Thanks for the laugh. That's like driving a Ferrari to your next door neighbor's house. OVERKILL. You can run a bitcoin node on a Raspberry Pi. It doesn't need server-grade hardware.

[TransaDox]

You guys with your $20 hard drives and your weird cost computations are a bunch of miserable lowlifes.

That's where I currently run my VMs on:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/system/2U/2028/SYS-2028TP-DC1FR.cfm

The cheapest SAS 2TB Hard drive costs around 340 EUR in Europe

http://geizhals.de/seagate-enterprise-capacity-2-5-512e-sed-2tb-st2000nx0343-a1202542.html?hloc=de

Then you run the HDDs of course in a RAID configuration, so the net capacity you get is less than what you read on the box.

Ok - I admit - the /scrap partition I use for the blockchain is a non-RAID configuration on even cheaper WD-RED hard drives (960GB around $60). Your cost computations are still nothing but ridiculous.


and hey @franky1: Since when do the HDDs alone the job? Isn't some CPU, Memory, mainboard, network, internet cost, power cost necessary too?


Rico

I wouldn't worry about it. It's all turned into a big ponzi scheme and all this talk about the cheap future unicorns is just a distraction technique..

They are just butt-hurt because they couldn't compete with the mining farms so are trying to find something else to shake some coin out of. They'll fight tooth and nail for it then the miners will screw them over that too when they spin up their 10,000 VM instances in one corner of their cluster.

Then the next big shakedown will be ever increasing Tx fees as the coins become hard to find and they wind down their mining operations; selling the hardware to banks for their back end services.

Calling it now so QFT me.

[rico666]

Thanks for the laugh. That's like driving a Ferrari to your next door neighbor's house. OVERKILL. You can run a bitcoin node on a Raspberry Pi. It doesn't need server-grade hardware.

I am not sure what's more sad. Someone not laughing because he doesn't get the joke or if someone laughing where there is no joke at all.

I didn't say this hardware is used exclusively for a bitcoin node. Just a VM on it. Probably using 1/100th of the capacity of the hardware. Still - 1/100th means around 130 EUR if you consider the total purchase price. And if you consider the monthly cost, then that is 1.58 EUR for the Bitcoin node.

What does your Raspi do when it has to bootstrap and index currently 93GB of blockchain?
How much does a Raspi cost with a 256GB memory (provided you want to participate for longer than 6 months)?
Ok - you will have no Gigabit Ethernet throughput no matter what you do, you will probably not get it run 24/7 at some ISP, but hey!

We're the Bitcoin community - right? We are ok to be miserable running 3rd grade hardware in moms basement as long as we show it those darn evil banks!


Rico

[Syke]

We are ok to be miserable running 3rd grade hardware in moms basement as long as we show it those darn evil banks!

You finally got it! A bitcoin node run on "3rd grade hardware in moms basement" runs perfectly well. There're a billion old PCs out there usable for running bitcoin nodes on. The cost? Virtually zero.

[TransaDox]

We are ok to be miserable running 3rd grade hardware in moms basement as long as we show it those darn evil banks!

You finally got it! A bitcoin node run on "3rd grade hardware in moms basement" runs perfectly well. There're a billion old PCs out there usable for running bitcoin nodes on. The cost? Virtually zero.

That's great then. We'll just give them all to the miners and they can use their time to get the software images working properly and the diskspaid for and installed. Use their unlimited bandwidth (24/7) connections and run them on their cheap bulk tariff electricity. Us real people can then get on and use Tap&Pay on our phones and cards via webwallets.

So pleased it all worked out so cheap. Excellent example of recycling too.

[Sontoloyo]

are you sure, i think this is can make a problem with your bitcoin, full nodes are not incentivized and can open the security codes. please be carefully

[zimmah]

The best way to really make mining more fair is by making a mining algorithm that favors mobile phones as miners.

Even poor people have mobile phones, and the difference in performance in mobile phones is small (compared to the difference in CPU/GPU/ASIC,  am well aware some phones have quadcore processors and others don't, but still, most phones are at least within the same order of magnitude in performance).

The main problem is how do we find an algorithm that can run on a phone 24/7 in the background, that stll allows you to use your phone for general purpose, and does not allow for asics and computers to dominate the algorithm.

Is such a thing even possible in theory and in practice?

If it s possible, it should definitely be explored because it seems the most fair. Most people own 1 mobile phone and most people do not own more then 3 or so. And it would probably not be profitable to get a farm full of mobile phones.

I think it will be hard or impossible to do though, as there are so many different phones and even different operating systems for phones, and I think any algorithm that would work on all (or most) phones, would probably work better on an ASIC or on a computer.

But even an algorithm that only works on computers would be better because even though large miners could get server rooms full of computers, they would still have much less of an unfair advantage as they have now.

Bitcoin was meant to be 'easily' mined by anyone who wants to. It needs to be at least somewhat accessible for everyone who wants to mine.

[kushti]

I have heavily updated the paper with my proposal: http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07926 . I think the whole paper is more understandable now, algos description in pseudocode is pretty straightforward. also some proofs of security have been added.

[mmortal03]

The main problem is how do we find an algorithm that can run on a phone 24/7 in the background, that stll allows you to use your phone for general purpose, and does not allow for asics and computers to dominate the algorithm.

The hit on battery life, the data usage, and the leg burns are not worth it.

[TransaDox]

The best way to really make mining more fair is by making a mining algorithm that favors mobile phones as miners.

Even poor people have mobile phones, and the difference in performance in mobile phones is small (compared to the difference in CPU/GPU/ASIC,  am well aware some phones have quadcore processors and others don't, but still, most phones are at least within the same order of magnitude in performance).

The main problem is how do we find an algorithm that can run on a phone 24/7 in the background, that stll allows you to use your phone for general purpose, and does not allow for asics and computers to dominate the algorithm.

Is such a thing even possible in theory and in practice?

If it s possible, it should definitely be explored because it seems the most fair. Most people own 1 mobile phone and most people do not own more then 3 or so. And it would probably not be profitable to get a farm full of mobile phones.

I think it will be hard or impossible to do though, as there are so many different phones and even different operating systems for phones, and I think any algorithm that would work on all (or most) phones, would probably work better on an ASIC or on a computer.

But even an algorithm that only works on computers would be better because even though large miners could get server rooms full of computers, they would still have much less of an unfair advantage as they have now.

Bitcoin was meant to be 'easily' mined by anyone who wants to. It needs to be at least somewhat accessible for everyone who wants to mine.

Mining is different to what full nodes do. The full nodes only need to confirm the maths is correct rather than find a new solution. That is very doable on mobile devices without burning legs. Mining is a much tougher nut to crack since the resources required are designed to be a limit on circumventing the security. If you could try to mine a single transaction once only, rather than many multi-megabyte blocks full of them, then it might be possible. This would require huge changes and the miners wouldn't allow it (because....money)

[cannonballsontherun77]

I recieved this from someone claiming to be Satoshi Nakamoto:

If this is real, then he is already working on a new cryptocurency  to address this issue:
*************************************************************************************************
To: Bitcoin Developers Everywhere

Constructive Imagination is everything when it comes to cross-platform integration of data services. You will rarely ever see a world-class architect doing drywall work at the construction site where his concept will be erected; nor will you ever see him floating the cement foundation after it has been poured. The people doing the construction work are needed for the architect's project; however, it's his concept that brought them there to work. Everyone that works on the architect's project needs to get paid. I want to take crypto-currency in a totally new direction; however, as payment, I want to give you a pre-issuance of the proposed new currency as the payment for your work; meaning, its the project itself that will pay you in virtual currency.

I want to create a new distributed peer-to-peer cryptocurrency that is more efficient and sustainable than Bitcoin. Using a PoQN (Proof of Qualified Node) that requires each miner to run and maintain a qualified node before being allowed to mine.

A "qualified node" is essentially an online server with a FQDN that must be running the blockchain checkpoints within its operational protocols. Each qualified node must run its own "blockchain explorer" and have visibility online to a FQDN. The code should be checked against sha-512 encryption checkpoints for conformity to preset network conditions.

Each qualified node will have full mining rights, and each node operator will be able to setup their own online storefront that represents the IP of the qualified node. Using automated API POS (point of sale) address assignments, each node operator can assign a "receive address" for each product on their site. Each transaction that runs off a qualified node will provide the person who sent the funds with the opportunity to leave feedback for that purchase on the blockchain explorer. Every product listed on every qualified node will be seachable by the product description provided on the node operators blockchain explorer.

Everytime a transaction occurs on any qualified node, the value of that tranaction and the item being sold will will go into a GVG (Gross Volume Generated) calcualtion report on each indepentantly run blockchain explorer. This will ensure that every qualified miner is updated with the current statistical value of the underlining cryptocurrency.
********************************************************************************************
There is much more to his email but I am keeping to myself for the time being. The email address that it came from is:
satoshi.t.nakamoto@protonmail.com

I think this guy might be the real Satoshi

[achow101]

I recieved this from someone claiming to be Satoshi Nakamoto:

If this is real, then he is already working on a new cryptocurency  to address this issue:
*************************************************************************************************
To: Bitcoin Developers Everywhere

Constructive Imagination is everything when it comes to cross-platform integration of data services. You will rarely ever see a world-class architect doing drywall work at the construction site where his concept will be erected; nor will you ever see him floating the cement foundation after it has been poured. The people doing the construction work are needed for the architect's project; however, it's his concept that brought them there to work. Everyone that works on the architect's project needs to get paid. I want to take crypto-currency in a totally new direction; however, as payment, I want to give you a pre-issuance of the proposed new currency as the payment for your work; meaning, its the project itself that will pay you in virtual currency.

I want to create a new distributed peer-to-peer cryptocurrency that is more efficient and sustainable than Bitcoin. Using a PoQN (Proof of Qualified Node) that requires each miner to run and maintain a qualified node before being allowed to mine.

A "qualified node" is essentially an online server with a FQDN that must be running the blockchain checkpoints within its operational protocols. Each qualified node must run its own "blockchain explorer" and have visibility online to a FQDN. The code should be checked against sha-512 encryption checkpoints for conformity to preset network conditions.

Each qualified node will have full mining rights, and each node operator will be able to setup their own online storefront that represents the IP of the qualified node. Using automated API POS (point of sale) address assignments, each node operator can assign a "receive address" for each product on their site. Each transaction that runs off a qualified node will provide the person who sent the funds with the opportunity to leave feedback for that purchase on the blockchain explorer. Every product listed on every qualified node will be seachable by the product description provided on the node operators blockchain explorer.

Everytime a transaction occurs on any qualified node, the value of that tranaction and the item being sold will will go into a GVG (Gross Volume Generated) calcualtion report on each indepentantly run blockchain explorer. This will ensure that every qualified miner is updated with the current statistical value of the underlining cryptocurrency.
********************************************************************************************
There is much more to his email but I am keeping to myself for the time being. The email address that it came from is:
satoshi.t.nakamoto@protonmail.com

I think this guy might be the real Satoshi

It's not satoshi. He never used that email.

[barrysty1e]

I recieved this from someone claiming to be Satoshi Nakamoto:

If this is real, then he is already working on a new cryptocurency  to address this issue:
*************************************************************************************************
To: Bitcoin Developers Everywhere

Constructive Imagination is everything when it comes to cross-platform integration of data services. You will rarely ever see a world-class architect doing drywall work at the construction site where his concept will be erected; nor will you ever see him floating the cement foundation after it has been poured. The people doing the construction work are needed for the architect's project; however, it's his concept that brought them there to work. Everyone that works on the architect's project needs to get paid. I want to take crypto-currency in a totally new direction; however, as payment, I want to give you a pre-issuance of the proposed new currency as the payment for your work; meaning, its the project itself that will pay you in virtual currency.

I want to create a new distributed peer-to-peer cryptocurrency that is more efficient and sustainable than Bitcoin. Using a PoQN (Proof of Qualified Node) that requires each miner to run and maintain a qualified node before being allowed to mine.

A "qualified node" is essentially an online server with a FQDN that must be running the blockchain checkpoints within its operational protocols. Each qualified node must run its own "blockchain explorer" and have visibility online to a FQDN. The code should be checked against sha-512 encryption checkpoints for conformity to preset network conditions.

Each qualified node will have full mining rights, and each node operator will be able to setup their own online storefront that represents the IP of the qualified node. Using automated API POS (point of sale) address assignments, each node operator can assign a "receive address" for each product on their site. Each transaction that runs off a qualified node will provide the person who sent the funds with the opportunity to leave feedback for that purchase on the blockchain explorer. Every product listed on every qualified node will be seachable by the product description provided on the node operators blockchain explorer.

Everytime a transaction occurs on any qualified node, the value of that tranaction and the item being sold will will go into a GVG (Gross Volume Generated) calcualtion report on each indepentantly run blockchain explorer. This will ensure that every qualified miner is updated with the current statistical value of the underlining cryptocurrency.
********************************************************************************************
There is much more to his email but I am keeping to myself for the time being. The email address that it came from is:
satoshi.t.nakamoto@protonmail.com

I think this guy might be the real Satoshi

It's not satoshi. He never used that email.

Please tell me thats not the only flaw you've identified in that text..

Also; bitcoind absolutely chugs along on ARM, i think earlier poster in regards to SAS raid and bit of decent hardware is more than reasonable.. otherwise, your node can process blocks.. behind the rest of the world, but what else?

[barrysty1e]

It appears my sarcasm wasn't obvious, this guy is not Satoshi because its written like a typical hoaxer idiot; not to mention the writer doesn't understand a great deal about programming/networking.

I want to create a new distributed peer-to-peer cryptocurrency that is more efficient and sustainable than Bitcoin. Using a PoQN (Proof of Qualified Node) that requires each miner to run and maintain a qualified node before being allowed to mine.

A "qualified node" is essentially an online server with a FQDN that must be running the blockchain checkpoints within its operational protocols. Each qualified node must run its own "blockchain explorer" and have visibility online to a FQDN. The code should be checked against sha-512 encryption checkpoints for conformity to preset network conditions.

He has just described a centralized node system.
Why would Satoshi so eagerly swap to a centralized setup, when the entire beauty of his creation was the fact the nodes didn't need to know each other beforehand?

A FQDN (fully qualified domain name) is not required for this to work; 'visibility online to a FQDN' demonstrates he has basic issues understanding what DNS is and how it operates.

The code should be checked against sha-512 encryption checkpoints for conformity to preset network conditions.

What checkpoints? Code isn't checked against checkpoints, blocks are..
Satoshi would have written SHA512 (as it's written).

Each qualified node will have full mining rights, and each node operator will be able to setup their own online storefront that represents the IP of the qualified node.

Oh dear.. the end part is the topper, a storefront representing an IP address? But what about the FQDN?
This entire thing is written like a early 2014 DogeCoin enthusiast, with a sheet of buzzwords and the literary skills of an eleven year old.

Move along folks.

[calkob]

you forgot the one reason to run a node,  the fact that you hold bitcoin and if there are not enough nodes which is bad for bitcoin then that is bad for the bitcoin price which hurts the average user who holds..... i run a full node and it is not all that expensive and in years to come it will be even less so..... moores law comes into play here also

[barrysty1e]

you forgot the one reason to run a node,  the fact that you hold bitcoin and if there are not enough nodes which is bad for bitcoin then that is bad for the bitcoin price which hurts the average user who holds..... i run a full node and it is not all that expensive and in years to come it will be even less so..... moores law comes into play here also

moores law has been broken for years bro..

all the big players (bitcoin pools) have a large set of nodes, both to keep the bitcoin network alive and also so they can apply their standard sneaky tricks whilst mining blocks (mining ahead as a group or singular, flatout spv mining, ignoring tx with transaction fees below 0.000xx etc).

what hardware you using for a full node?

[mrsky]

I believe the best solution is: Educate people about the need for nodes. Give them a easy SD card image LINUX system for Raspberry PI with pre-installed and clean Bitcoin client.
Make them run a 24/7 raspberry PI node - very cheap to buy and run. Will be run on altruism and self-preservation (for people who have stake on the BTC network - own BTCs)

That's it!

Cheers,
Sky

[barrysty1e]

I believe the best solution is: Educate people about the need for nodes. Give them a easy SD card image LINUX system for Raspberry PI with pre-installed and clean Bitcoin client.
Make them run a 24/7 raspberry PI node - very cheap to buy and run. Will be run on altruism and self-preservation (for people who have stake on the BTC network - own BTCs)

That's it!

Cheers,
Sky

that will leave them with a sort of 'blackbox' knowledge as to what is actually going on.
to be fair, after linux is installed, bitcoind can be up and running/syncing within 7-10 typed lines.

people these days seem to want their cryptocurrency with the least technical involvement; but have the most to say.