Bitcoins existence has increased the spread of child pornography

[EthanB]

>The governments are stepping in
No, a bitcoin startup has partnered with a UK non-profit. Learn to read.


Stop playing dumb.

the government *will* regulate Bitcoin as it regulates every other currency, as in AML/KYC compliance. This is not something we can choose away or wish into the cornfield.
Suggesting that governments can't regulate Bitcoin is no smarter than flipping off a cop when your trunk is full of shit that shouldn't be there. Pro tip: don't do it.

And centralization is neither here nor there. Bitcoin is not a special snowflake just because it's decentralized.

I read about the non-profit, but you added quite a bit to that as well. You made things confusing when you say that governments will regulate bitcoin no matter what, as it does with every other currency, and then return to me and say "The governments are not stepping in". Can you clarify what the hell you're talking about then, or why the non-profit was relevant to my original point or this thread to begin with?

No again. Decentralization is important to Bitcoin.

Which MayorMccheese do I side with?

And centralization is neither here nor there.

But it doesn't exempt Bitcoin from the same laws which apply to other currencies.

You just had this conversation with RodeoX, so I'll leave it at that :

I am just pointing out that when you want to stop illegal activity you should consider who's law you are talking about. In Saudi Arabia it is punishable by death to not believe in God. So if someone buys a book like the God Delusion should they be turned in to be executed? In the DPRK a person who does not recognize the divinity of the leader meets the definition of "criminally insane" and is subject to death, is that cool? In some countries it is illegal to be gay, should we stop them from using BTC?
And what about guns and drugs bought legally? It is a more complicated question that child exploitation, which has been used for decades to spy on us and deny our rights.  

What internationally acknowledged laws is bitcoin currently not abiding by that would fight child-pornography? This is where our argument comes to a concise and clean conclusion, I pray.

[MayorMccheese]

Internet's existance also has increased the spread of child porn, should we ban internet now?

If internet caused more harm than good, we should. Since that's not the case, we shouldn't.

You can't cure an illness by banning technological inventions. You cure them by raising educated and wealthy people, healthy families etc.

Who said anything about curing an illness? Did you bother reading the linked article before spouting platitudes?
Since I know you're not going to bother, here's a TL;DR:

"On Wednesday (July 6), London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic announced that it was teaming up with International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, to curb the cryptocurrency’s role in the spread of child pornography."

I can assure you, the article does not propose to ban Bitcoin, and teh gubermint is never mentioned.

[EthanB]

Internet's existance also has increased the spread of child porn, should we ban internet now?

If internet caused more harm than good, we should. Since that's not the case, we shouldn't.

Are you saying that bitcoin has done more harm than good? If you are, can you please elaborate?
Bitcoin is a child of the internet, so if you argue that bitcoin is harmful than the internet is at least as harmful as bitcoin.

You can't cure an illness by banning technological inventions. You cure them by raising educated and wealthy people, healthy families etc.

Who said anything about curing an illness? Did you bother reading the linked article before spouting platitudes?
Since I know you're not going to bother, here's a TL;DR:

"On Wednesday (July 6), London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic announced that it was teaming up with International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, to curb the cryptocurrency’s role in the spread of child pornography."

I can assure you, the article does not propose to ban Bitcoin, and teh gubermint is never mentioned.

The illness he's referring to is pedophilia. That article addresses some wonderful points, and this is why I'm not interested in arguing back and forth, but simply ask the question
"How can we make bitcoin "safer"? , but it is not the greatest evil at play in these scenarios.

[MayorMccheese]

>The governments are stepping in
No, a bitcoin startup has partnered with a UK non-profit. Learn to read.


Stop playing dumb.

the government *will* regulate Bitcoin as it regulates every other currency, as in AML/KYC compliance. This is not something we can choose away or wish into the cornfield.
Suggesting that governments can't regulate Bitcoin is no smarter than flipping off a cop when your trunk is full of shit that shouldn't be there. Pro tip: don't do it.

And centralization is neither here nor there. Bitcoin is not a special snowflake just because it's decentralized.

I read about the non-profit, but you added quite a bit to that as well. You made things confusing when you say that governments will regulate bitcoin no matter what, as it does with every other currency, and then return to me and say "The governments are not stepping in". Can you clarify what the hell you're talking about then, or why the non-profit was relevant to my original point or this thread to begin with?

ELY5:
If we don't police ourselves, which is what the bitcoin startup is trying to do, the gubermint *will* step in and do it for us. Without asking EthanB for his consent.

No again. Decentralization is important to Bitcoin.

Which MayorMccheese do I side with?

And centralization is neither here nor there.

But it doesn't exempt Bitcoin from the same laws which apply to other currencies.

What part of "decentralization does not exempt Bitcoin from currency laws, which means decentralization is neither here nor there" are you failing to grasp, EthanB?

You just had this conversation with RodeoX, so I'll leave it at that <snip>

I didn't see that post, have not replied to it, and thus was not a part of a conversation. Will read and reply.

What internationally acknowledged laws is bitcoin currently not abiding by that would fight child-pornography? This is where our argument comes to a concise and clean conclusion, I pray.

"Internationally acknowledged laws" WTF would those be, and how is this relevant to our conversation? We're talking about a bitcoin startup partnering with a non-profit to fight child porn.

[MayorMccheese]

Internet's existance also has increased the spread of child porn, should we ban internet now?

If internet caused more harm than good, we should. Since that's not the case, we shouldn't.

Are you saying that bitcoin has done more harm than good? If you are, can you please elaborate?

Sure. It made it much easier to create scam companies (see securities section of this forum), steal people's money (Pirateatfourty, TradeFortress, Mt.Gox, etc.), enabled illegal internet gambling (which preys on the poorest and dumbest), is consuming as much energy as a small country, etc., etc. And, of course, there's the topic of this thread: child porn.

Now you tell me the good things Bitcoin has done, and I want specifics.

Bitcoin is a child of the internet, so if you argue that bitcoin is harmful than the internet is at least as harmful as bitcoin.

Nonsense. Every serial killer and child molester is some mother's child. By your logic, those women are evil too.

You can't cure an illness by banning technological inventions. You cure them by raising educated and wealthy people, healthy families etc.

Who said anything about curing an illness? Did you bother reading the linked article before spouting platitudes?
Since I know you're not going to bother, here's a TL;DR:

"On Wednesday (July 6), London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic announced that it was teaming up with International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, to curb the cryptocurrency’s role in the spread of child pornography."

I can assure you, the article does not propose to ban Bitcoin, and teh gubermint is never mentioned.

The illness he's referring to is pedophilia. That article addresses some wonderful points, and this is why I'm not interested in arguing back and forth, but simply ask the question
"How can we make bitcoin "safer"? , but it is not the greatest evil at play in these scenarios.

The article is not trying to cure pedophilia, it is trying to curb child porn. How is this difficult to understand?
Feel free to go and work with the pedos, and, as soon as they stop molesting kids and making/distributing child porn, aforementioned bitcoin sturtup will become irrelevant. Easy.

[RodeoX]

What internationally acknowledged laws is bitcoin currently not abiding by that would fight child-pornography? This is where our argument comes to a concise and clean conclusion, I pray.

Ethan I am playing devil's advocate here. I would burn a pedophile in a fire as quick as anyone. But it is a tricky thing when you get into the details. For example I would be appalled at a website that connects grown men with 13 year old girls. But what if that practice was the norm in some country? Should my ideas about how people should live be imposed on the rest of the world? Why, cause I'm a rich white American? And should women here be arrested for not covering their hair because it is a law somewhere else? What if in their country it is far worse a crime than child porn?
Our own (U.S.) history is also filled with immoral laws. When I was born you could be jailed for marrying a black person. Therefore this argument would have supported tracking bitcoins so that no one buys a marriage licenses outside of their race.  Addressing the worst things on the darknet is going to be difficult if we are to preserve our rights.  


EDIT: @MayorMccheese about the post below.

All good points. I agree with those methods. My concern is any system that devolves into a which hunt.

[MayorMccheese]

We should also crack down on people disrespecting the supreme leader. Everyone knows that only a disturbed criminal can disrespect Kim Jong Un. Come on North Korea, let's kill these rats.
 

It's not a question of what we should do, it's a question of what will be done to us.
Now then, WTF are you talking about?

I am just pointing out that when you want to stop illegal activity you should consider who's law you are talking about.

Activity illegal in my country, e.g. raping prepubescent children on camera.

In Saudi Arabia it is punishable by death to not believe in God. So if someone buys a book like the God Delusion should they be turned in to be executed?

You're comparing religious freedom with raping loli?
Let me explain how this goes: Neither the London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic nor the International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, have enforcement wings. This means that at best, they could report child rape to relevant authorities.
Now, you may feel that child abuse laws are random and arbitrary, and, in a way, they are, but that's a different conversation altogether.

And what about guns and drugs bought legally? It is a more complicated question that child exploitation, which has been used for decades to spy on us and deny our rights.  

Guns and drugs bought legally are legal guns and drugs, thus neither the London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic nor the International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, have any fricking thing to do with them. Simple.

[EthanB]

We're talking about fighting child-porn entirely, through policing ourselves (bitcoin community / protocol) and you seem to be stuck on a single non-profit organization.. which is actually a great example of somebody doing something. I don't understand your need to insult or to be hostile, when I'm agreeing that it's a very convenient medium for this activity and asking you what you think should be done. It seems as though your only response is "The government is gonna take care of it, because we're incapable".

ELYS: If we don't police ourselves, which is what the bitcoin startup is trying to do, the gubermint *will* step in and do it for us. Without asking EthanB for his consent.

I keep asking you, What would you like to see changed within bitcoin that would make it "safer" and fight child-pornography? In an attempt to "police ourselves"

What part of "decentralization does not exempt Bitcoin from currency laws, which means decentralization is neither here nor there" are you failing to grasp, EthanB?

No part of it, I'm just wondering why you're directly contradicting yourself within 15-minutes of conversation, talking in circles when I'm asking a very direct question.

"Internationally acknowledged laws" WTF would those be, and how is this relevant to our conversation? We're talking about a bitcoin startup partnering with a non-profit to fight child porn.

You keep going on and on about how bitcoin needs to comply with the same laws that other currencies do, because it would help fight child-pornography and illegal activity, and I'm asking, What laws specifically are you talking about?

Sure. It made it much easier to create scam companies (see securities section of this forum), steal people's money (Pirateatfourty, TradeFortress, Mt.Gox, etc.), enabled illegal internet gambling (which preys on the poorest and dumbest), is consuming as much energy as a small country, etc., etc. And, of course, there's the topic of this thread: child porn.

 By that logic we should dismantle the entire idea of currency, because it mediates between every profitable criminal act ever committed. Is USD / EUR somehow a moral high-ground?

Nonsense. Every serial killer and child molester is some mother's child. By your logic, those women are evil too.

 Wrong, the criminals you speak of are independent of their mother. If the mother carried the serial killer and child molesters while they carried out this evil, then they are evil. If the mother knew of the evil being committed and that is was entirely dependent upon her, yet she continued to allow it, then yes she is evil.

[CIYAM]

Watching an image (or a film) is not the same as "making it" (this does not mean I am condoning that).

The serious issue here is not at all associated with the selling of images or videos but with the making of them.
(as bad as such things are you can't claim that 1K people watching such a thing hurt the child more than 1 person watching it)

And I think everyone here knows that the vast majority of such material has been paid for in USD (so ban that first please).

[MayorMccheese]

Ethan I am playing devil's advocate here. I would burn a pedophile in a fire as quick as anyone. But it is a tricky thing when you get into the details. For example I would be appalled at a website that connects grown men with 13 year old girls. But what if that practice was the norm in some country? Should my ideas about how people should live be imposed on the rest of the world? Why, cause I'm a rich white American? And should women here be arrested for not covering their hair because it is a law somewhere else? What if in their country it is far worse a crime than child porn?
Our own (U.S.) history is also filled with immoral laws. When I was born you could be jailed for marrying a black person. Therefore this argument would have supported tracking bitcoins so that no one buys a marriage licenses outside of their race.  Addressing the worst things on the darknet is going to be difficult if we are to preserve our rights.  

You, as "a rich white American," should keep your ideas of right and wrong to yourself, and stop sticking your nose into other people's business. If beheading non-believers is what they do, that's none of your rich white American business.

You should also let the London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic and the International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, do what they do, and keep your ethics to yourself.
Is that what you want to hear?

[MayorMccheese]

Watching an image (or a film) is not the same as "making it" (this does not mean I am condoning that).

No it is not. And that's why the punishments are different.
Knowingly buying stolen goods is also not the same as stealing, and that's why the punishment is different there too.
Now you know.

The serious issue here is not at all associated with the selling of images or videos but with the making of them.

A factory that makes widgets which no one buys is a bankrupt factory, there's that. If child porn can't be monetized, it removes money as an incentive for making it. Sure, it would still exist, there are sick people out there, but fewer kids will get fucked up.

[CIYAM]

A factory that makes widgets which no one buys is a bankrupt factory, there's that.

So show us the "proof" that factories based upon BTC (and not USD) are the major creators of child porn please.

(my guess is you can't do that because it is just bullshit that you have made up)

[MayorMccheese]

^
Non-sequitur?
Did I say there are "factories based upon BTC (and not USD) are the major creators of child porn"?
Do you know what an analogy is?

[CIYAM]

Did I say there are "factories based upon BTC (and not USD) are the major creators of child porn"?

So what exactly is it that you are saying?

You know that USD is the major currency for child porn but you think that people should hate BTC because it "possibly could be used" for the same thing?

Your point has no point - it is just stupid (perhaps you are paid to make such stupid posts here).

[EthanB]

Ethan I am playing devil's advocate here. I would burn a pedophile in a fire as quick as anyone. But it is a tricky thing when you get into the details. For example I would be appalled at a website that connects grown men with 13 year old girls. But what if that practice was the norm in some country? Should my ideas about how people should live be imposed on the rest of the world? Why, cause I'm a rich white American? And should women here be arrested for not covering their hair because it is a law somewhere else? What if in their country it is far worse a crime than child porn?
Our own (U.S.) history is also filled with immoral laws. When I was born you could be jailed for marrying a black person. Therefore this argument would have supported tracking bitcoins so that no one buys a marriage licenses outside of their race.  Addressing the worst things on the darknet is going to be difficult if we are to preserve our rights.  

You, as "a rich white American," should keep your ideas of right and wrong to yourself, and stop sticking your nose into other people's business. If beheading non-believers is what they do, that's non of your rich white American business.

You should also let the London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic and the International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, do what they do, and keep your ethics to yourself.
Is that what you want to hear?

Anyone culturally /ethically / religiously different should have no part in the rest of humanity's affairs? We should let non-profit organizations "do what they do, and keep our ethics to ourselves", is there no accountability on their behalf or limit to their reach of discretion?

I'm a very poor white american, 90% of the people I have ever known don't even make Poverty wages. I come from a ghetto in New York where multiple people are shot and killed every single month over drugs and pocket-change. I personally know multiple woman who were raped and abused by the hands of family members or friends. I know too well what it's like to lose someone to violence, or to lose someone psychologically to abuse. It's insulting as hell to make assumptions about "white americans".

As a white-american who knows women who are ruined emotionally/psychologically from rape and abuse as a little girl, I definitely see child-pornography and how it's monitored/prosecuted as my damn business.

Humanity , Civility is ALL our business, especially when it comes to how we treat the children of the world.

[CIYAM]

Oh - "the humanity" and "what about the children".

Guys - do you know that gold can be used as a medium of payment for "child porn".

I suggest you try and get gold banned immediately worldwide!
(and in fact all money - as surely any money could be used to procure child porn)

[MayorMccheese]

Ethan I am playing devil's advocate here. I would burn a pedophile in a fire as quick as anyone. But it is a tricky thing when you get into the details. For example I would be appalled at a website that connects grown men with 13 year old girls. But what if that practice was the norm in some country? Should my ideas about how people should live be imposed on the rest of the world? Why, cause I'm a rich white American? And should women here be arrested for not covering their hair because it is a law somewhere else? What if in their country it is far worse a crime than child porn?
Our own (U.S.) history is also filled with immoral laws. When I was born you could be jailed for marrying a black person. Therefore this argument would have supported tracking bitcoins so that no one buys a marriage licenses outside of their race.  Addressing the worst things on the darknet is going to be difficult if we are to preserve our rights.  

You, as "a rich white American," should keep your ideas of right and wrong to yourself, and stop sticking your nose into other people's business. If beheading non-believers is what they do, that's non of your rich white American business.

You should also let the London-based bitcoin startup Elliptic and the International Watch Foundation (IWF), a non-profit in the UK that monitors online child abuse, do what they do, and keep your ethics to yourself.
Is that what you want to hear?

Anyone culturally /ethically / religiously different should have no part in the rest of humanity's affairs? We should let non-profit organizations "do what they do, and keep our ethics to ourselves", is there no accountability on their behalf or limit to their reach of discretion?

ELY5: If he feels that it is not his rich white American place to dictate what constitutes child rape, it is also not his rich white American place to tell others which laws are *UN*just, e.g. beheading non-believers.
Because intrinsic consistency.

I'm a very poor white american, 90% of the people I have ever known don't even make Poverty wages. I come from a ghetto in New York where multiple people are shot and killed every single month over drugs and pocket-change. I personally know multiple woman who were raped and abused by the hands of family members or friends. I know too well what it's like to lose someone to violence, or to lose someone psychologically to abuse. It's insulting as hell to make assumptions about "white americans".

As a white-american who knows women who are ruined emotionally/psychologically from rape and abuse as a little girl, I definitely see child-pornography and how it's monitored/prosecuted as my damn business.

Humanity , Civility is ALL our business, especially when it comes to how we treat the children of the world.

And that's fine. As long as you understand that you're imposing your cultural bias and arbitrary mores on others, which Rodeo finds so abhorrent.

[EthanB]

Oh - "the humanity" and "what about the children".

Guys - do you know that gold can be used as a medium of payment for "child porn".

I suggest you try and get gold banned immediately worldwide!

Don't be cruel .  
My point is that human beings should be able to live without feeling like they're a monetize-able object from birth (girls), and no one should fear a be-heading for seeking wisdom/knowledge.

To say we have no right to regulate monitoring/prosecuting, yet those who monitor/prosecute can regulate all that we do.. Is just a damn scary idea to me.

[CIYAM]

To say we have no right to regulate monitoring/prosecuting, yet those who monitor/prosecute can regulate all that we do.. Is just a damn scary idea to me.

You are making zero sense.

If you want to control everything then you should control the USD and all other cash - is that your goal?

(and if that is not your goal then why on earth are you picking on Bitcoin that is a fraction of the USD being used for "child porn" and any other illegal thing you can think of)

[EthanB]

To say we have no right to regulate monitoring/prosecuting, yet those who monitor/prosecute can regulate all that we do.. Is just a damn scary idea to me.

You are making zero sense.

If you want to control everything then you should control the USD and all other cash - is that your goal?

(and if that is not your goal then why on earth are you picking on Bitcoin that is a fraction of the USD being used for "child porn" and any other illegal thing you can think of)

I'm probably "making zero sense" because that quote was for MayorMccheese telling us to leave the Non-profit monitoring organization to their own devices without imposition of ethics. I've agreed with everything you have said so far, so...