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Author Topic: MTGOX is manipulating BTC Value.  (Read 7330 times)
bitcon
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March 18, 2013, 09:15:49 PM
 #21

mtgox is bitcoin's FED.


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March 18, 2013, 09:19:34 PM
 #22

mtgox is bitcoin's FED.

There is a small difference in that the FED can print as much money as they want, MtGox does not print any money, the FED sets interest rates for lending, MtGox has nothing to do with lending ... oh, wait, they really have nothing in common after all.

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March 18, 2013, 09:26:37 PM
 #23

yea, i don't think gox would be dumb enough to get into the lending business.


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March 18, 2013, 09:48:59 PM
 #24

MtGox are currently the biggest exchange, but could be replaced anytime when they make a serious mistake. They only exist by having the trust of the traders.
They don't do filler trades, just check the Euro market depth, sometimes there is a bid-ask gap for hours.

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March 18, 2013, 11:22:15 PM
 #25

MtGox are currently the biggest exchange, but could be replaced anytime when they make a serious mistake. They only exist by having the trust of the traders.
They don't do filler trades, just check the Euro market depth, sometimes there is a bid-ask gap for hours.

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March 19, 2013, 12:43:51 AM
 #26

Mark my words.

I have marked your words as F-.

I cross referenced your marking, and downgraded it to a G-
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March 19, 2013, 12:49:21 AM
 #27

I said it is dangerous to speculate about market manipulation when a) you demonstrate a lack of  understanding how an exchange works b) not providing evidence of these manipulation, only a "feeling".

Try quoting me next time.  Thanks


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The OP has a lack of knowledge of how inflation and economics works (not saying 'no knowledge', just a lack of).
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March 19, 2013, 10:32:24 AM
 #28


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March 19, 2013, 11:12:49 AM
 #29

but why would the competitor sell Bitcoins for less than they can get for them?

Theres ways to profit when selling at a loss

btc-e probably have a ton a coins in circulation (much more then mtgox) which gives them better leverage on the price. Its like I have 4000 BTC here selling at $46.7 but then 13000 btc on another exchange selling them at $44.2. The later would profit a considerable amount more because of the volume...

Selling at a loss is also a way you can get rid of competition that doesn't have many funds at it's disposal, everyone will go to the cheapest price and the people competing will go out of business because they can't afford to keep the prices so low. I don't think anything that shady is going on though but Bitcoins are getting very expensive for the paper bugs.
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March 19, 2013, 11:49:35 AM
 #30

There's something called arbitrage.
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March 19, 2013, 11:55:10 AM
 #31

Quote
MTGOX is manipulating BTC Value

I can confirm that this is bullshit!
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March 19, 2013, 11:55:59 AM
 #32



that would be too much, more like 1 USD cent would make sense Smiley
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March 19, 2013, 01:00:24 PM
 #33

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Socialists might like a totally centralised system, top down control and wonder why its too inefficient and never works as planned.
Libertarians might want totally decentralised systems with control being bottom up, and wonder why monopolies and cartels are created despite their best efforts

Eh, example completely incorrect, centralization is implicit in the formation of monopolies (the state giving violence-derived power in multiple forms to private entities)
The argument that "centralization causes inefficiency but decentralization causes monopolies" is completely invalid although it seems like a nice cute little duality that most of the sheeple will eat right up.
Markets are now micromanaged by socialist governments to an almost Orwellian extent never seen in the history of the world and we are still blaming monopolies and cartels on a lack of centralization/top-down control? Your argument is just a cute duality that seems believable at face value prior to analysis.

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March 19, 2013, 01:21:39 PM
 #34

Quote
Socialists might like a totally centralised system, top down control and wonder why its too inefficient and never works as planned.
Libertarians might want totally decentralised systems with control being bottom up, and wonder why monopolies and cartels are created despite their best efforts

Eh, example completely incorrect, centralization is implicit in the formation of monopolies (the state giving violence-derived power in multiple forms to private entities)
The argument that "centralization causes inefficiency but decentralization causes monopolies" is completely invalid although it seems like a nice cute little duality that most of the sheeple will eat right up.
Markets are now micromanaged by socialist governments to an almost Orwellian extent never seen in the history of the world and we are still blaming monopolies and cartels on a lack of centralization/top-down control? Your argument is just a cute duality that seems believable at face value prior to analysis.



The problem is that with the size of the global market even a relatively small company (compared to the multinational giants) on that market can have a big impact on a local economy.
The global population wants financial stability and so demands that market players play along certain rules.

People want a certain ammount of top down control by a cantral authority.
This is because big organisations have shown throughout history that they can become de-humanized and can turn against society.

But too much control and there is no more market.
So it's always a balance.
Meanwhile the players are changing all the time and technology puts new challenges on our doorsteps every day.
You may be worrying about markets, i'm worrying about biotech and if there will still be something like a genetically normal human being in 50 years.
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March 19, 2013, 02:01:58 PM
 #35

People want a certain ammount of top down control by a cantral authority.

I wish people would refrain from making statements such as this one. It would add much clarity to discussion.

You don't know what people want. I for one don't desire any amount of top down control and I suspect there are others like me. You can guess, suspect and you're welcome to back it up by anecdotal or statistical evidence. But be clear about what you're actually saying. Try saying "I guess that many people want a certain amount of top down control, because of anecdotal evidence xy or because of my beliefs and convictions." or outright say that YOU want a certain amount of top down control and maybe try explaining why.

I look at it much like BitcoinAshley: we have unprecedented amounts of central control in many aspects of our lives and yet the proposed solutions to systemic problems (many caused mainly by said central control in my opinion) always seem to center around more central control.

The way I look at it, there is not much control that Gox can exert over the bitcoin economy. They may try to influence it with their policies or try to abuse their dominant position as an exchange platform, but I don't think there's much they could do and if they found ways how to exert negative influence, competition would soon grow and overtake them. I'll admit here that I haven't thought about this very much and don't know very much about Gox and the bitcoin market in general.

It's all bullshit. But bullshit makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.
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March 19, 2013, 03:06:01 PM
 #36

People want a certain ammount of top down control by a cantral authority.

I wish people would refrain from making statements such as this one. It would add much clarity to discussion.

You don't know what people want. I for one don't desire any amount of top down control and I suspect there are others like me. You can guess, suspect and you're welcome to back it up by anecdotal or statistical evidence. But be clear about what you're actually saying. Try saying "I guess that many people want a certain amount of top down control, because of anecdotal evidence xy or because of my beliefs and convictions." or outright say that YOU want a certain amount of top down control and maybe try explaining why.

I look at it much like BitcoinAshley: we have unprecedented amounts of central control in many aspects of our lives and yet the proposed solutions to systemic problems (many caused mainly by said central control in my opinion) always seem to center around more central control.

The way I look at it, there is not much control that Gox can exert over the bitcoin economy. They may try to influence it with their policies or try to abuse their dominant position as an exchange platform, but I don't think there's much they could do and if they found ways how to exert negative influence, competition would soon grow and overtake them. I'll admit here that I haven't thought about this very much and don't know very much about Gox and the bitcoin market in general.

You can think what you think. You are not the people. The people is a mean of the population. They are the ones doing most of the hard labour, they have the shittiest lifes and they have very little to say about their current situation.
People want food and security first and foremost. They want to be able to feed their families and they want to be protected (within reason) against agression. That is what most people want at the basis. The rest is luxury.

I agree that the current situation is becoming problematic but i refute that less control is the best solution per se.
I propose that we need the right ammount of control, whatever that may be. Also it needs to be structured right. And propably needs to be less than it is now but more effective.

The problem is that society has become incredibly complex in the past few decenia. It was never like this before in history and we are facing lots and lots of new problems. For one, things are changing faster than society including (or maybe especially) institutions can keep up with. But at the same time society relies on these institutions to function properly.
The push for development has reached most of its goals in the western world and resources need to be allocated precisely to maintain a status quo and not make the whole thing collapse under its own weight. But at least we have relative stability, food, healthcare etc.
This technological changeover makes any long-term plans more and more futile. What we see is that the whole world starts to bend to these technological changes by becoming ever more short sighted.
This is definitely a destabilizing factor in society and the institutes that gave shape to society start to crumble in unexpected ways.
The long timescale structures that held society together start to lose grip on how society develops.
No one wants to invest in something that will become obsolete before they can get their investment back.
The only short term option is to increase control.

But you must realize, like the issuers of this control, that this is a temporary situation because it will escalate if pushed through far enough.
There is no long term solution to this porblem (except slowing down the technological revolutions and stop saturating the world with useless crap that nevertheless takes heaps of energy to produce) so in all propablility this western civilization will eat itself up and be replaced by something else (Bitcoin won't be part of it tho, because bitcoin requires the current economy to function properly).

I want to remind you of the universal fact that any usefull system has both static and dynamic parts. It is an entropy thing.
If a system is too stable it cannot interact. If it is too unstable, it will be eaten up by its environment.
So any practical system needs structures that provide it with stability and it needs structures that are free enough to interact with the environment but not so free that they lose coherence with the stable part.

So the question is, and always has been, what is the right ratio of stability and instability for a given situation.
An that is why i can say that people seek governance without misrepresenting the truth. Smiley
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March 19, 2013, 04:23:59 PM
 #37

I've never seen this much bs before. people should educate themselves before engaging in forum activities. ;-)

Normal exchanges dealing with fiat buy low and sell higher, it does not apply to btc exchanges. As previously said it's a trading platform nothing more.
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March 21, 2013, 12:52:04 AM
 #38

its all a facade.


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March 22, 2013, 08:58:00 PM
 #39

MTGOX is Bitcoin's central bank.  when someone dumps of coins through MTGOX.  MTGOX sells them at an inflated price because they know they have a monopoly on the entire exchange system. They are making money both on exchange fees and by controlling what the masses think Bitcoin is actually worth. Mark my words.
The only way they are influencing the price is by their freaking lag. MtLag.

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March 23, 2013, 05:18:24 AM
 #40

MTGOX is Bitcoin's central bank.  when someone dumps of coins through MTGOX.  MTGOX sells them at an inflated price because they know they have a monopoly on the entire exchange system. They are making money both on exchange fees and by controlling what the masses think Bitcoin is actually worth. Mark my words.
The only way they are influencing the price is by their freaking lag. MtLag.

its all good as long as the lag is +/-$10 from what the actual going rate is, then those of you outsiders have nothing to worry about. Grin


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