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Author Topic: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin  (Read 28110 times)
d'aniel
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March 19, 2013, 12:30:50 AM
 #21

Well, the way I read it:

Quote from: FinCEN
An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.
emphasis added

While it is possible to "destroy" Bitcoin units, nobody has the authority to redeem it. So there is no such thing as "administrator" of Bitcoin.
The 'De-Centralized Virtual Currencies' section was obviously written with Bitcoin as the prototypical example, and it's pretty clear what the spirit of the law is there IMO.
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March 19, 2013, 12:32:09 AM
 #22

"An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency. "

This is absurd, no one can withdraw bitcoin from circulation, maybe they think bitcoin is the same as FED's money printing business

There will be better exchanges appear in bahamas and virgin island

d'aniel
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March 19, 2013, 12:33:37 AM
 #23

tl;dr...  bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes Smiley
I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.
You're not happy about having legal certainty, finally?
repentance
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March 19, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
 #24

Well, the way I read it:

Quote from: FinCEN
An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.
emphasis added

While it is possible to "destroy" Bitcoin units, nobody has the authority to redeem it. So there is no such thing as "administrator" of Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is covered under (c), quoted in the OP.  Other virtual currencies do meet the criteria for having an administrator.  Don't confuse the two.

Quote
A final type of convertible virtual currency activity involves a de-centralized convertible virtual currency (1) that has no central repository and no single administrator, and (2) that persons may obtain by their own computing or manufacturing effort.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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March 19, 2013, 12:37:23 AM
 #25

tl;dr...  bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes Smiley
I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.
You're not happy about having legal certainty, finally?

See some people have not contacted lawyers before jumping into bitcoin businesses, if you contacted your lawyer before doing business in bitcoin, you would know it was always legal.

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bitlizard
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March 19, 2013, 12:38:59 AM
 #26

This is pretty much the best news regarding bitcoin we could have gotten from the government.

Are you out of your fucking mind???

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d'aniel
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March 19, 2013, 12:40:15 AM
 #27

See some people have not contacted lawyers before jumping into bitcoin businesses, if you contacted your lawyer before doing business in bitcoin, you would know it was always legal.
It's about the law going forward.  Nobody had any certainty about that before.  Jesus, you're such a fucking buzzkill Smiley
David M
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March 19, 2013, 12:40:27 AM
 #28

I don't think this has anything to do with legality.

This is about regulation: The bureaucrats weapon of choice.
bitlizard
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March 19, 2013, 12:41:22 AM
 #29

Anyone who thinks this is a good thing for bitcoin is in for a rude awakening.
I had my fingers crossed that bitcoin would get much further along before this happened.

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March 19, 2013, 12:41:49 AM
 #30

I don't think this has anything to do with legality.

This is about regulation: The bureaucrats weapon of choice.

You act as if this is a bad thing.
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March 19, 2013, 12:42:37 AM
 #31

tl;dr...  bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes Smiley
I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.

They've been a legal gray area since they were created. We've always known that the Government would get into regulating them someday, but nobody knew what form that regulation would take. They could be all but ignored or they could do their level best to squash it like a bug. I believe this is a good sign in that it seems to be pretty light regulation and provides some security - the more official recognition Bitcoin gets, the less likely the Government is to try to crush it.
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March 19, 2013, 12:43:00 AM
 #32

This is pretty much the best news regarding bitcoin we could have gotten from the government.

Are you out of your fucking mind???

No I agree, it is the best news US peoples could have hoped for. Bitcoin is now explicitly legal and will be regulated like real money (we knew it was already real money, but now the "normal business community" will as well).  I've long said that Amazon will not accept Bitcoin until the legal uncertainty is removed. This just removed it.

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.
matonis
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March 19, 2013, 12:44:21 AM
 #33

Well, the way I read it:

Quote from: FinCEN
An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.
emphasis added

While it is possible to "destroy" Bitcoin units, nobody has the authority to redeem it. So there is no such thing as "administrator" of Bitcoin.

Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet in the law. The law will be adjusted if the nuance of bitcoin doesn't fit the "redeem" and "administrator" paradigm. The goal is to bring exchangers directly under the MSB and MT regulations. No more casual preemptive compliance like Bitinstant because it will be required and they did it without declaring bitcoin real currency.

Also, a decentralized convertible virtual currency has no single administrator as stated in the FinCEN guidance.

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gweedo
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March 19, 2013, 12:45:00 AM
 #34

See some people have not contacted lawyers before jumping into bitcoin businesses, if you contacted your lawyer before doing business in bitcoin, you would know it was always legal.
It's about the law going forward.  Nobody had any certainty about that before.  Jesus, you're such a fucking buzzkill Smiley
tl;dr...  bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes Smiley
I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.

They've been a legal gray area since they were created. We've always known that the Government would get into regulating them someday, but nobody knew what form that regulation would take. They could be all but ignored or they could do their level best to squash it like a bug. I believe this is a good sign in that it seems to be pretty light regulation and provides some security - the more official recognition Bitcoin gets, the less likely the Government is to try to crush it.

Another two people who never talked to a lawyer before getting into bitcoin, it isn't a buzzkill, if the news was the other way, I be very sad, but we are talking about something that must people already knew. Bitcoins are legal, and if your exchanging a high volume of them get your wallet out and license up. Nothing new here.

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SBC
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March 19, 2013, 12:47:14 AM
 #35

There will be better exchanges appear in bahamas and virgin island

Not really sure how well that's going to work out. Although those territories are outside of US jurisdiction, fiat funds wired to US bank accounts would not be. Unless you either launder the money through third party countries (which requires wealth and contacts), or you maintain your entire life in crypto-currencies - you'll fall foul of the regulation.

The problem is much as we all love Bitcoin (it is awesome), it's a) still not a mass market technology and b) now likely to face heavy commercial resistance from the entrenched monopolies (e.g. Mastercard, Visa) as a consequence of this ruling. As a result it's not likely to replace the Dollar, Euro, Yuan etc - physically or electronically - anytime soon a unit of transaction in day-to-day life. That of course is unless you go specifically out of your way to pay for your life with Bitcoins (or other crypto-currencies)... which the average person won't do.

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David M
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March 19, 2013, 12:48:01 AM
 #36

You act as if this is a bad thing.

I have had no issues (and no special paperwork) in my dealings with Australian government & Tax Office in regards to my businesses accepting Bitcoin before this announcement.  

I cannot say the same for the future thanks to our FTA with the yanks.
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March 19, 2013, 12:48:44 AM
 #37

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.

I just wonder how miners will cope with this news. Technically they could just buy gold and silver and sell that to avoid needed a license.. but still..

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March 19, 2013, 12:54:27 AM
 #38

Money Services Business - The term "money services business" includes any person doing business, whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized business concern, in one or more of the following capacities:

(1) Currency dealer or exchanger.
(2) Check casher.
(3) Issuer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(4) Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(5) Money transmitter.
(6) U.S. Postal Service.

An activity threshold of greater than $1,000 per person per day in one or more transactions applies to the definitions of: currency dealer or exchanger; check casher; issuer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value; and seller or redeemer of travelers' checks, money orders or stored value. The threshold applies separately to each activity -- if the threshold is not met for the specific activity, the person engaged in that activity is not an MSB on the basis of that activity.

Source:  http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html

So, stay below $1,000 a day and a miner should be okay?

jgarzik
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March 19, 2013, 12:55:16 AM
 #39

tl;dr...  bitcoins are legal


And you need a +$1million dollar worth money transmitter license if you want to mine and sell them for fiat  Roll Eyes

I don't read it that way at all...  assuming that the miner is selling via a licensed bitcoin exchange (MSB/MT).


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March 19, 2013, 12:56:35 AM
 #40

They'll keep trying to change the rules if local retailers start accepting BTC.
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