FinCEN guidance: BIG application to U.S. Miners

[Big Time Coin]

U.S. miners, all I have to say is read it and weep 

http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/pdf/FIN-2013-G001.pdf

[simerol]

What me worry?

Thanks for your concern Big Time Coin.

You are missing the point here. This "legal action" being issues by the United States government is rendering it "illegal" to perform such transactions.

Worried? The rest of the world, no. For US citizens dealing with bitcoins in any way shape or form concerning other currencies, yes.

This was an inevitable. In that sense, the whole idea behind a currency by the people for the people is one to be fought by the organization that has managed to set up a system that places and keeps itself in power in the first place. Evolution at a tipping point in it's most natural form.

We all know that what needs to happen in order to change the way the world is run is to restore balance. The main cause of unbalance at this point in time is the way power/energy/service is exchanged in the form of the current monetary system.

Let's brainstorm this one for a bit shall we?

[odolvlobo]

What me worry?
Thanks for your concern Big Time Coin.

You are missing the point here. This "legal action" being issues by the United States government is rendering it "illegal" to perform such transactions.

Actually, he is right. Miners can spend BTC on gold without the risk of being classified as an exchanger. However, that particular gold coin is legal tender and therefore "real money". A miner that spends BTC on "real money" becomes an exchanger.

[SZD]

Looks like mining and converting BTC to USD is now illegal unless you are a licensed corporation with hundreds of thousands for licenses and bonding requirements.  

[jgarzik]

Looks like mining and converting BTC to USD is now illegal unless you are a licensed corporation with hundreds of thousands for licenses and bonding requirements.  

Hardly.  US miners will just have to AML/KYC with a regulated US bitcoin exchange, to get US Dollars.

It is also doubtful that regulators even care about small time miners.

Pool operators might be a grey area, on the other hand.

[thebaron]

If you are into Bitcoin to follow laws, I will just laugh at you.

[jgarzik]

If you are into Bitcoin to follow laws, I will just laugh at you.

Some of us want bitcoin to be useful to the whole world, not just the teenaged lawless/anarchist part of it.

[SZD]

Looks like mining and converting BTC to USD is now illegal unless you are a licensed corporation with hundreds of thousands for licenses and bonding requirements.  

Hardly.  US miners will just have to AML/KYC with a regulated US bitcoin exchange, to get US Dollars.

It is also doubtful that regulators even care about small time miners.

Pool operators might be a grey area, on the other hand.

If you are a money transmitter, don't you need a money transmitter license?

[thebaron]

If you are into Bitcoin to follow laws, I will just laugh at you.

Some of us want bitcoin to be useful to the whole world, not just the teenaged lawless/anarchist part of it.

So how is it going to get anywhere by following laws and regulations? It's the greatest threat to the biggest power structure. They're going to make it illegal at some point. Period. Prison terms for drug dealers will pale in comparison to being caught possessing a Bitcoin private key.

[Vladimir]

If you are into Bitcoin to follow laws, I will just laugh at you.

Some of us want bitcoin to be useful to the whole world, not just the teenaged lawless/anarchist part of it.

As if regulating how people (specifically US citizens) can use Bitcoin makes it more useful...

It does. It removes, at least some, uncertainty. And the one thing that is rather difficult to sell to investors is uncertainty.

Less uncertainty -> more investors -> more adoption -> Bitcoin is more useful -> higher BTC value.

As simple as that.

[justusranvier]

If you say so. Sounds like you are more concerned about it being useful for institutional investors than for the common citizen. Great, wall street is less uncertain about Bitcoin now, but I need a license to sell a friend a few coins. The usefulness is overwhelming me!

The sliver lining is that if Bitcoin is useful for the institutional investors the price would need to be such that, if you own some now, you'll be able to relocate to a more bitcoin-friendly country in the future.

[thebaron]

If you say so. Sounds like you are more concerned about it being useful for institutional investors than for the common citizen. Great, wall street is less uncertain about Bitcoin now, but I need a license to sell a friend a few coins. The usefulness is overwhelming me!

The sliver lining is that if Bitcoin is useful for the institutional investors the price would need to be such that, if you own some now, you'll be able to relocate to a more bitcoin-friendly country in the future.

Then nothing will have changed.

[inge]

We will see how long it will take Europe to write a “document” like this one….

Inge

[zeroday]

Don't you think such "regulations" may also benefit bitcoin by encouraging people avoid fiat and use btc directly to pay for goods/services and legally avoid sales taxes.

[zeroday]

No. You can't legally avoid sales tax...

Probably you are right. IRS requires 1099-B on barter deals.

[hanwong]

IRS does not administer sales tax. IRS administers income tax which applies to barter transactions.

[zeroday]

Does this mean that every bitcoin transaction can be defined as barter and requires the filling of IRS form?

[odolvlobo]

If you are into Bitcoin to follow laws, I will just laugh at you.

Some of us want bitcoin to be useful to the whole world, not just the teenaged lawless/anarchist part of it.

As if regulating how people (specifically US citizens) can use Bitcoin makes it more useful...

It does. It removes, at least some, uncertainty. And the one thing that is rather difficult to sell to investors is uncertainty.
Less uncertainty -> more investors -> more adoption -> Bitcoin is more useful -> higher BTC value.
As simple as that.

It also removes some opportunity.

Less opportunity -> Bitcoin is less useful -> lower BTC value

[christop]

Don't you think such "regulations" may also benefit bitcoin by encouraging people avoid fiat and use btc directly to pay for goods/services and legally avoid sales taxes.

From what I understand about sales tax, the seller of a product or service is responsible for paying sales tax, but most sellers in the US pass the added costs to the customer by simply adding the tax to the advertised price at time of sale. In Britain, on the other hand, the sales tax (VAT) is generally included in the advertised price, so what you see is what you pay.

[Severian]

Some of us want bitcoin to be useful to the whole world, not just the teenaged lawless/anarchist part of it.

Cheap shot, j. I'm well into my 50's, far from being a teenaged anarchist. The government has proven itself to be the lawless entity in most matters as of late, not Bitcoin users. Bitcoin already provides its own rules that apply to everyone that uses it, unlike this decree from an arbitrary body of questionable pedigree.

This move by FinCEN as about as impotent an adminstrative ruling as they could make. This is good because bureaucratic critters are slow and lumbering specimens that don't move from a position very quickly once they take a stand. That being said, why is this incessant need for approval from authority so prevalent in parts of the Bitcoin community?