I am a certified Anti-Money Laundering agent. (AMLCA)

[flavius]

It's funny because like half the point of bitcoin is to launder money while earning some interest. You can't make us pay taxes on something that isn't a government issued currency, because at it's very core it isn't money.

If you want me to pay taxes on bitcoins, I will send you the owed amount in bitcoins, not dollars. However, if the government accepts bitcoins as a tax payment then they are outright violating several laws and world goes ballistic.

There will always be ways to turn bitcoins into cash anonymously, and in large amounts. I could care less about whatever laws you pass, there are anonymous debit cards everywhere. I don't even need to mention the secondary p2p market for btc to cash because there are so many loopholes for turning it into cash through automatic websites and such.

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[TheDarkBanker]

The hackers and whistleblower groups like wikileaks must really be getting to these "regulators" XDDDD

Well I guess cybercrime just got a little more annoying for the average skiddie XDDDD

[Kluge]

How long has FinCEN known about Bitcoin and been planning to regulate it?

I don't know how long FinCEN has truly considered Bitcoin a serious player, but likely not very long knowing government bureaucracy.

But frankly, I am not seeing FinCEN going after Bitcoin itself. I'm sure they are quite dumbfounded as to how to do such a thing. But what they can do is put pressure on any legitimate entity that hooks up to it in a formal way.

The government, then, is effectively ensuring all "ideals" of Bitcoin come through. Decentralization will flourish, because once you're "big," you're in their crosshairs. Regulating demanded business (especially when it affects consumers) to the point of effective de-legalization isn't going to create a couple giants, but push market-share to p2p and otherwise-decentralized (and non-compliant) solutions. Government can either back down and at least ensure they collect tax revenues from entities like Dwolla, or kill those companies giving into fear of government by boosting consumer appeal of organizations with no single point of failure. By encouraging a downward trend of compliance, they destabilize the entire country (with regards to subject/ruler relationship). - And remember, the American Revolution encouraged many others' subjects to follow suit.

Given management is on a failed path, a "National Union" might later be a solid bet against open rebellion. Timid enough for the government to reluctantly go along with, but bold enough to keep the citizens complacent. If government covertly controlled it...  they could just transfer the title of "United States" over to them. 

[IveBeenBit]

Btcinvestor - I may have missed it, but do you have an opinion on how these regulations would affect people listed on sites like localbitcoins.com?

[jgarzik]

BTW, Jeff...You are always welcome to any information from me free of charge on here or any other way. (And that goes for any of the other Bitcoin devs) Just happy to know you. Contact me anytime. You guys are the front lines of a very important work.

PM sent

[catcow]

is arbitration between bitcoin exchanges considered "money transmission"

[Zaih]

Interesting. Best of luck getting things under control!

[AnonyMint]

I am a miner, if I use Mt. Gox to trade BTC and USD back and forth (to make more money) will I have to get a money transmitter license as long as i keep it under $1000 of trades per day?

No.

1. Can he remain anonymous?

2. Does a USA citizen abroad have to comply when dealing with non-USA affiliated exchanged in foreign currencies?

3. Is law retroactive?

[AnonyMint]

I am a miner, if I use Mt. Gox to trade BTC and USD back and forth (to make more money) will I have to get a money transmitter license as long as i keep it under $1000 of trades per day?

No.

Thank you, was seriously worried about this.  Also if I do more than $1000 per day in trading would I have to get a license right? I think I would if I'm understanding the FinCEN document correctly

Very doubtful. Of course it depends on volume and some other things, but you will not hit any radars easily. ;^}

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

You are saying that he incurs no liability if he can avoid compliance radars?

I read the FinCEN statement and I read it as saying each individual is a money transmitter and is responsible for filing.

With the shit coming with global economic collapse and rabid tax authorities in near future, I would not try to skirt the edge of the literal statements.

[AnonyMint]

I personally believe that BitCoin will be entirely resistant to regulation in-and-of itself. I am an expert in the financial and payments industry. BitCoin, in my estimation, is one of the greatest financial forces unleashed in the history of time. We will see that bear out many fold in our lifetimes. Get as many of them as you possibly can. Now.

Why not buy Litecoin, they are still much cheaper?

Buy low, sell high.

[AnonyMint]

4)Practically impossible to regulate direct miner-to-people transactions...This is why we have all fallen in love with Bitcoins in the first place right? ;^)

I don't see it as a game of cat&mouse. I see it as the govt is giving you rope to hang yourself with.

The govt is tracking everything you do over the internet, and 10 years from now they can come knocking and say "where is your paper trail for the these transactions we know you did".

The global economy is going to utterly collapse into MADMAX.

Billions unemployed means millions hired to do tax collection and audits.

Bitcoin is not anonymous there is a permanent record on the internet forever.

Use physical gold and silver if you want anonymity. Otherwise keep a paper trail for everything in your safe...

[lorax2013]

I've watched bitcoin from a distance for awhile and this was always my main concern.  If you know how the banking industry controls our government, you know they will eventually cut off the legal links between bitcoin and dollars.  It was bound to happen and this is the first step.  Basically unless you can exchange bitcoins for dollars WITHOUT giving your identification - then it is not a viable long term solution.  

BUT.... having studied financial privacy for decades, there perhaps are viable permanent solutions to exchange bitcoins for dollars without ID.  

For one, it could be done through local individual networks - much like the drug market.  This would incur risk and fees, but it would be viable.  Decades ago, when some countries regulated the exchange rate, you'd very often see "black market" money changers provide this service in large numbers and relatively efficiently in those countries.

Secondly, and more hopefully, there are still a few countries free of the international bank cartel's domination.  Places like Liechtestein, Andorra, and to a degree China.  Exchanges based in those countries could perhaps resist outside pressure of requiring or at least disclosing ID.  Perhaps if exchanges were set up in those jurisdictions, then dollars going into our out of that country would basically be entering a black hole as far as the US / EU can tell.    Yes, in the case of small tax haven countries, these transfers back to a US bank would subject you to scrutiny from tax authorities, but in the case of a country like China, there could be legitimate business reasons for large transfers.  China is now too big to get pushed around by the US.  It would be much the same as the way the US thumbs its nose at African countries which futilely complain as their wealth is pilfered and laundered through US banks.  Yes, the US authorities would be upset to see large sums popping into your US bank account from behind the Chinese wall - but the US couldn't prove the source and there would be countless legitimate possibilities.   I'm not really an expert though in the ever changing field of international banking regulations.

Well, altogether I'm still unsure of the future of bitcoin but it does seem to have one and perhaps only one true advantage over precious metal - it can be carried unobtrusively on your person.  

[AnonyMint]

lorax, don't think of P2P currencies as a gold. Use gold for shit you want to hide. Use P2P currencies when you don't want to hide and hate your credit card.

They can be better than a credit card. But for the moment Bitcoin and Litecoin are not acceptable to me because they have a diabolical design:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160612.0

[lorax2013]

It's funny because like half the point of bitcoin is to launder money while earning some interest. You can't make us pay taxes on something that isn't a government issued currency, because at it's very core it isn't money.

If you want me to pay taxes on bitcoins, I will send you the owed amount in bitcoins, not dollars. However, if the government accepts bitcoins as a tax payment then they are outright violating several laws and world goes ballistic.

There will always be ways to turn bitcoins into cash anonymously, and in large amounts. I could care less about whatever laws you pass, there are anonymous debit cards everywhere. I don't even need to mention the secondary p2p market for btc to cash because there are so many loopholes for turning it into cash through automatic websites and such.

Could you please elaborate?  I'm a noob and unaware of any anonymous method - other than p2p - which can convert bitcoins to cash and vice versa.  What "automatic website" or combination of methods can take my cash and send me bitcoins at a low commission?  And then when I sell back to them how do they get the cash to me anonymously?

[MikeH]

since the government works for us, we'll let you know if we want any regulations re: money laundering.

k, thanks.

[AnonyMint]

since the government works for us...

Where do you get that delusion?