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Author Topic: Thing-O-Matic Fundraising  (Read 4367 times)
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 06:01:22 PM
 #1

Anybody who help fund the purchase of a thing-o-matic will get a share of 50% in the profit-sharing scheme based on how much they funded. People can call for an assembly and vote on business decisions. Otherwise, I will be responsible for the day-to-day business decisions and such. Note this is only tentative.

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

The business proposal: A thing-o-matic hooked up to a bitcoin based interface. Basically, I will be the first business to manufacture items on a mass production scale for bitcoins.


Why trust me?

1. I been an escrow for the EFF and now the CCC and help organized the letter writing campaign to the EFF and the CCC.
2. A highly active and interested poster in this forum.
3. A 500 dollars bet/stake into the success of the bitcoin economy.

PENDING TRUST(Not fulfilled yet)

1. Run a web app that accept bitcoin.
2. Run bitpredict.


The fundraising effort will target 612.5 dollars worth of bitcoins. You invest at your own risk.

All bitcoins will go to this address:

[redacted for the time being]

Also notes, I will need to exchange bitcoins for dollars. That will take time.

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grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 06:09:10 PM
 #2

Anybody who help fund the purchase of a thing-o-matic will get a share of 50% in the profit-sharing scheme based on how much they funded. I assume all business decisions.

You're going a bit fast, imo.

What about writing a clear and exhaustive company status document ?


If you want to raise say 2,000$, you must sell say 100 shares at 20$ each.  I.e about 200 BTC / share.

I'd be ok to buy one share, but you have to formalize all this much better.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
 #3

Anybody who help fund the purchase of a thing-o-matic will get a share of 50% in the profit-sharing scheme based on how much they funded. I assume all business decisions.

You're going a bit fast, imo.

What about writing a clear and exhaustive company status document ?


If you want to raise say 2000$, you must sell say 100 at 20$ each.  I.e about 200 BTC / share.

I'd be ok to buy one share, but you have to formalize all this much better.


Alright. It would be helpful if a lawyer can give his opinion on it, too.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 06:21:22 PM
 #4

Alright. It would be helpful if a lawyer can give his opinion on it, too.

We don't need a lawyer, but a few precautions.

First, you should publish your GnuPG key.  Your reputation worths nothing if it is not associated to a secure way to identify yourself.

Second, if I send some bitcoins to your address, you have to send me a signed document proving that I actually contributed to your fundraising.

Also, you have to publish somewhere about how much exactly has been raised so far.  Such publicaction should be as regular as possible.

Moreover, if I buy shares of your microcompany, I expect a bit more than a right to receive a share of your future profits.  There should be the possibility to attend to an assembly and to vote for decisions.  You can't claim "all business decisions" once you're not the only one who brought the capital.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 06:23:48 PM
 #5

Alright. It would be helpful if a lawyer can give his opinion on it, too.

We don't need a lawyer, but a few precautions.

First, you should publish your GnuPG key.  Your reputation worths nothing if it is not associated to a secure way to identify yourself.

Second, if I send some bitcoins to your address, you have to send me a signed document proving that I actually contributed to your fundraising.

Also, you have to publish somewhere about how much exactly has been raised so far.  Such publicaction should be as regular as possible.

Moreover, if I buy shares of your microcompany, I expect a bit more than a right to receive a share of your future profits.  There should be the possibility to attend to an assembly and to vote for decisions.  You can't claim "all business decisions" once you're not the only one who brought the capital.


Suggestions noted. I'll change so that people can call assembly and vote for decisions, but it will be noted that the document is not finalized yet.

I am also unfamiliar with signing document with my key and such...so there will be some time.

Also, I will be responsible for most the daily decisions making.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 06:27:25 PM
 #6


Suggestions noted. I'll change so that people can call assembly and vote for decisions, but it will be noted that the document is not finalized yet.

I am also unfamiliar with signing document with my key and such...so there will be some time.

Good.  I'm glad you are willing to do things in the proper way.

I very much think your project is possible.  1,225$ is not that much money, anyway Smiley
S3052
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October 24, 2010, 07:20:19 PM
 #7

Anybody who help fund the purchase of a thing-o-matic will get a share of 50% in the profit-sharing scheme based on how much they funded. People can call for an assembly and vote on business decisions. Otherwise, I will be responsible for the day-to-day business decisions and such. Note this is only tentative.

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

The business proposal: A thing-o-matic hooked up to a bitcoin based interface. Basically, I will be the first business to manufacture items on a mass production scale for bitcoins.

Could you explain a bit better what the business idea is? Sorry but I am not the expert in thing-o-matic stuff.

What will it produce?
How should things be sold?
etc

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kiba
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October 24, 2010, 07:33:09 PM
 #8

Anybody who help fund the purchase of a thing-o-matic will get a share of 50% in the profit-sharing scheme based on how much they funded. People can call for an assembly and vote on business decisions. Otherwise, I will be responsible for the day-to-day business decisions and such. Note this is only tentative.

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

The business proposal: A thing-o-matic hooked up to a bitcoin based interface. Basically, I will be the first business to manufacture items on a mass production scale for bitcoins.

Could you explain a bit better what the business idea is? Sorry but I am not the expert in thing-o-matic stuff.

What will it produce?
How should things be sold?
etc

Thing-o-matic is a 3D printer. Basically, it will produce a 3D object out of ABS plastic. People will be charged primary on the size of the object and than how many objects that will be produced.

The bigger the order the bigger the cost but they will also benefit from bulk discount.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 07:50:01 PM
 #9

Thing-o-matic is a 3D printer. Basically, it will produce a 3D object out of ABS plastic. People will be charged primary on the size of the object and than how many objects that will be produced.

The bigger the order the bigger the cost but they will also benefit from bulk discount.

I'd like to add that such a service is not new (I think it's called "rapid prototyping"), but this one would be the first one to charge in bitcoins.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 07:52:55 PM
 #10

Thing-o-matic is a 3D printer. Basically, it will produce a 3D object out of ABS plastic. People will be charged primary on the size of the object and than how many objects that will be produced.

The bigger the order the bigger the cost but they will also benefit from bulk discount.

I'd like to add that such a service is not new (I think it's called "rapid prototyping"), but this one would be the first one to charge in bitcoins.


It is not just "rapid prototyping" but "mass produciton rapid prototyping".

FreeMoney
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October 24, 2010, 09:42:39 PM
 #11

I might be interested.

If you are going to need dollars then I think you need to make the offer as x% of profits for $y.

Of course you can accept payment in btc at whatever rate you expect to be able to get. Well, actually at a worse rate for exchange rate risk because you have to get $1225 at least.

Also, you are presumably going to be adding labor for a long time, but we will get a permanent share of unlimited profit? Perhaps it makes sense to cap investors return at 5-10 times initial investment? This helps us get your incentives right too, if you put a lot of god effort in then you can get to the point of keeping all your labor.

A rough timeline would be nice too. For example, if you only have $400 in a month are you going to keep trying or return investments?

And what about ongoing costs? What is the price of the plastic? Is electricity an issue?

Just some thoughts, I'm interested to hear what people think. It seems like an appropriately sized project to me.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 09:50:16 PM
 #12

I might be interested.

If you are going to need dollars then I think you need to make the offer as x% of profits for $y.

Of course you can accept payment in btc at whatever rate you expect to be able to get. Well, actually at a worse rate for exchange rate risk because you have to get $1225 at least.

Investment are entirely in bitcoin, and profit sharing are entirely in bitcoin.

Quote
Also, you are presumably going to be adding labor for a long time, but we will get a permanent share of unlimited profit? Perhaps it makes sense to cap investors return at 5-10 times initial investment? This helps us get your incentives right too, if you put a lot of god effort in then you can get to the point of keeping all your labor.

The labor is in assembling in the kit, the coding of the website, customer support, and then the delivery of boxes. However, I expect the operation to mostly scale.

Then, there's also the maintenance and upgrade cost for the bots too. My reputation is also at risk. Not just if I screwed you guys out but if I make money for you guys too.

Keep in mind, I get 50% of the profit. You guys get maybe only 1% of the 50% leftover and you get to stay anonymous.
Quote
A rough timeline would be nice too. For example, if you only have $400 in a month are you going to keep trying or return investments?

That's a good question. I don't know what to decide yet.
Quote
And what about ongoing costs? What is the price of the plastic? Is electricity an issue?

A pound of plastic is included with the kit. But to buy more plastic, it cost 15 bucks for a pound of plastic, 65 dollars for 5 pound of plastic. I assume electricity isn't a problem.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 09:56:19 PM
 #13

Keep in mind, I get 50% of the profit. You guys get maybe only 1% of the 50% leftover and you get to stay anonymous.

This is just not acceptable.  You should receive in porportion to the part of the capital that you own.

If your machine costs 1250$, you'll get 50% of the profit if and only if you bring 625$.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 09:57:35 PM
 #14

Keep in mind, I get 50% of the profit. You guys get maybe only 1% of the 50% leftover and you get to stay anonymous.

This is just not acceptable.  You should receive in porportion to the part of the capital that you own.

If your machine costs 12500$, you'll get 50% of the profit if and only if you bring 625$.


If you get 1 share out of 100, you get only 1%.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 10:07:30 PM
 #15

If you get 1 share out of 100, you get only 1%.

Indeed.  But that's not possible if you already get 50% of the profit without owning 50% of the shares.

It seems that what you really want to do is to open only half of the capital.  In that case, the amount you want to raise is not 1250$, but 625$.  You will provide the second half of it.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 10:10:05 PM
 #16

If you get 1 share out of 100, you get only 1%.

Indeed.  But that's not possible if you already get 50% without owning 50% of the shares.


I am sorry? You mean I have to purchase it myself? I am the guy who will put in the code and the labor and direct the operation.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 10:14:22 PM
 #17

I am sorry? You mean I have to purchase it myself? I am the guy who will put in the code and the labor and direct the operation.

That is not how things work.  What you are talking about is a labour.  It requires a salary.  This can be negociated.  A director can perfectly be a simple employee.  Same for any technician.

But this is different from the way profits are distributed.

This is basic capitalism.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 10:23:00 PM
 #18

I am sorry? You mean I have to purchase it myself? I am the guy who will put in the code and the labor and direct the operation.

That is not how things work.  What you are talking about is a labour.  It requires a salary.  This can be negociated.  A director can perfectly be a simple employee.  Same for any technician.

But this is different from the way profits are distributed.

Than you'll have to wait until I make enough money from other business venture before I'll consider raising capitals for thing-o-matic. This is as far as I goes.

grondilu
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October 24, 2010, 10:27:01 PM
 #19

Than you'll have to wait until I make enough money from other business venture before I'll consider raising capitals for thing-o-matic.

I understand.  It's perfectly normal from you to want to make money with your idea, without giving half of it to investors.

To do so, you need to raise half of the price of the device.

But you can also accept the idea that investors will gain more money than you, at least at the beginning.  Then, with the money you'll earn, you will buy their shares back, until you eventually own more than 50% of the company.
kiba
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October 24, 2010, 10:30:43 PM
 #20

Than you'll have to wait until I make enough money from other business venture before I'll consider raising capitals for thing-o-matic.

I understand.  It's perfectly normal from you to want to make money with your idea, without giving half of it to investors.

To do so, you need to raise half of the price of the device.

But you can also accept the idea that investors will gain more money than you, at least at the beginning.  Then, with the money you'll earn, you will buy their shares back, until you eventually own more than 50% of the company.


I lowered the fundraising target to 612.5. Until I can front the other half, it will remain no go.

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