Ethereium Classic is a reminder of why Bitcoin must never hard fork

[Pursuer]

This is a fucking disaster. 2 coins are surviving for a long time now, they are even in huge exchanges together like Poloniex, and solid developers are joining the project too.

Idiots like Brian Amrstrong saying that they were sure the fork would disappear quick and 2 coins would not survive together... well guess what, you morons are WRONG. Now you have 2 fucking coins to worry about, good luck with that. Meanwhile in Bitcoin we stick together with the best team (Core) that has been delivering the best code for years now. We will never be subjected to his amateurism. Bitcoin lives on as the king and haters are as salty as ever. Let's keep on winning.

excellent points.
there was a time -at the start of the arguments for increasing bitcoin block size- that I was mad why don't they just fork it and get it over with. but I read a very good topic with arguments about this issue on reddit that helped me understand why it is a terrible idea to just jump in and change things without everybody on board. and now this is the living proof for all those arguments back then.
this really shows the power of bitcoin and the developers team and the community it has over a pump and dump altcoin with no (decent) developer and a community that doesn't even support the blockchain by running a full node and every single one of them are either holding their coins at exchanges or in online wallets.

[dontetris]

ETC is the DAO attackers little sideproject to make some value for his coins. And to be able to sell them at all. Prepare for the dump, lol...

[dinofelis]

And today?

Ethereum Classic is excellent proof that forks absolutely must happen, to release pressure of unhappy users from the cooker. Forking is a healthy process in open-source crypto, forking should be celebrated by all freedom lovers. You are not confined to the boundaries of a tyrannical chain, you're free to fork away.

Amen !

[dinofelis]

ETC is the DAO attackers little sideproject to make some value for his coins. And to be able to sell them at all. Prepare for the dump, lol...

What shall we then say about the ETH fork ?  Whose project was that ?

[European Central Bank]

Eth is the alt dump project of the original developers.

Only the market can decide which is their favorite dumper. I like dao guy. You know where you stand with him.

[Hueristic]

This is a fucking disaster. 2 coins are surviving for a long time now, they are even in huge exchanges together like Poloniex, and solid developers are joining the project too.

Idiots like Brian Amrstrong saying that they were sure the fork would disappear quick and 2 coins would not survive together... well guess what, you morons are WRONG. Now you have 2 fucking coins to worry about, good luck with that. Meanwhile in Bitcoin we stick together with the best team (Core) that has been delivering the best code for years now. We will never be subjected to his amateurism. Bitcoin lives on as the king and haters are as salty as ever. Let's keep on winning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk

Yeah he does seem like an idiot from what I've read.

ETC is the DAO attackers little sideproject to make some value for his coins. And to be able to sell them at all. Prepare for the dump, lol...

I heard he's going to use the funds to help develop and increase his net worth. Why did you hear differently?

[Mastercon]

I heard he's going to use the funds to help develop and increase his net worth. Why did you hear differently?

Where did you hear about that? That will be an interesting development if that is true. But I would doubt that.

[dumpida]

I heard he's going to use the funds to help develop and increase his net worth. Why did you hear differently?

Where did you hear about that? That will be an interesting development if that is true. But I would doubt that.

After the big ETC holders who are the large owners of the ETH as well dump the ETC, the ETC price could drop.

[Mjbmonetarymetals]

I see ETC becoming the dominant chain paving the way for a big block bitcoin hard fork, both these events will shift power away from the cental planners and miners back to the users.

[hatshepsut93]

Ethereum's fork is awesome, that's the real decentralization and empowerment.

Some people agree with fork, some don't, now everyone has their own chain, no one dictates the rules to each other.

[dinofelis]

Ethereum's fork is awesome, that's the real decentralization and empowerment.

Some people agree with fork, some don't, now everyone has their own chain, no one dictates the rules to each other.

Amen to that !

[adhitthana]

In a few days, when the DAO hacker starts to dump the stolen ETC, the ETC price will be dumped to zero.

Once the hacker dumps the price will likely go up a long way

[TomPetty]

All systems are rigged from the stock markets to crypto currencies. There is too many early btc stakeholders in ETH to let it die, they will keep the market propped up and hope for the best. There is no real price discovery in the alt coin market.

[dumpida]

All systems are rigged from the stock markets to crypto currencies. There is too many early btc stakeholders in ETH to let it die, they will keep the market propped up and hope for the best. There is no real price discovery in the alt coin market.

You might be right. The big Ethereum holder will keep the ETH alive. It is in their best interest to do so.

[ArticMine]

This is a fucking disaster. 2 coins are surviving for a long time now, they are even in huge exchanges together like Poloniex, and solid developers are joining the project too.

Idiots like Brian Amrstrong saying that they were sure the fork would disappear quick and 2 coins would not survive together... well guess what, you morons are WRONG. Now you have 2 fucking coins to worry about, good luck with that. Meanwhile in Bitcoin we stick together with the best team (Core) that has been delivering the best code for years now. We will never be subjected to his amateurism. Bitcoin lives on as the king and haters are as salty as ever. Let's keep on winning.

I have to disagree. What has happened with the Ethers, ETH/ETC has nothing to do with the situation in Bitcoin. Bitcoin has successfully hard forked on one or more occasion and may well do so in the future. The reason there has not been a hard fork in Bitcoin over the blocksize issue is that nobody has proposed a real solution to the blocksize scaling issue that actually works over the long term. Without such a solution the necessary consensus in the Bitcoin community is simply not there.

What makes the Ethereum hard fork different and a very dangerous precedent is that this hard fork was not about significantly improving Ethereum or about fixing a vulnerability in the Ethereum code. These are situations where immutability of coin ownership on the blockchain is preserved, It was about reversing a particular set of transactions. The prevention of this kind of transaction censorship is why Bitcoin was invented in the first place. If one reads Satoshi's original Bitcoin paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf this becomes readily apparent.

What Vitalik has done here is actually prove Satoshi wrong, since a highly distributed Proof of Work blockchain is not enough to prevent this kind of attack. This attack worked because it used persuasion rather than force. It relies on manufacturing a clearly identified  enemy and then persuading the majority that attacking this enemy is in the majority's best interest. History has many examples where this approach has led to war, genocide etc. A critical component of this attack is that the majority must be able to clearly identify the enemy and then launch the targeted attack.

ETC is just as vulnerable here as the pre fork ETH. Consider for example if the enemy was a "really evil" bank that had just been bailed out by the taxpayers at great expense. In that respect so is Bitcoin and any in the clear blockchain, including Litecoin for example. One solution worth considering here is to blind the censor by using an anonymous blockchain. For example it is next to impossible to pull of this kind on attack in Monero, in spite of the fact that Monero has hard forked in the past and is scheduled to hard fork in the future. What the Ethereum hard fork has done here is make the case for anon coins much stronger.  

Edit: The answer here is not to prevent a hard fork, it is instead to prevent a hard fork that only targets specific transactions.

[RoseMann]

Every Alt coin is only as good as the Devs who pick it up, no? I'm a little new to the altcoin world but my perception is why fork unless you have the devs plans in advance to capitalize on it?

For the Eth fundsters and bag holders its a disaster for THEM.

For the rest of us ETC could really turn out to be a good thing, a unforked version that holds true to its core values instead of throwing all your morals out the window.  This is literally the same ethereum from a week ago so in the future things could end up being really good for us.

A lot of people were against the fork so this could drawl some talented dev to take care of whatever contract problems and dapp problems that could rise from having 2 chains, im really uninformed in that area.  Its a HUGE risk at this point but the fact remains you can get ethereum coins at around 60 cents a piece instead of 13 bucks and that price could explode in the future.

Then again ETC could drift off into the sunset never to be seen again.

either way I would never expect any less of the altcoin market, this is the shit we live for.

[RoseMann]

what ethereum developer did on his own was the argument between bitcoin giants a year ago! and the decision was that hard fork is never good and forks should only happen if everybody (or at least the majority) are agreeing with it so that you prevent this disaster that we are seeing today with ethereum
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Just getting into this thread now, so Im a bit late to the party but I 100% agree with this post, an Altcoin is about the community, and forking with out consent from the majority of shareholders of the coin wanting to do so, leaves initially funders wondering if they just got scammed, and also where the future of their investment will end up, most people will sell and rive the price down. #ForkingisADickMove

[dinofelis]

I have to disagree. What has happened with the Ethers, ETH/ETC has nothing to do with the situation in Bitcoin. Bitcoin has successfully hard forked on one or more occasion and may well do so in the future. The reason there has not been a hard fork in Bitcoin over the blocksize issue is that nobody has proposed a real solution to the blocksize scaling issue that actually works over the long term. Without such a solution the necessary consensus in the Bitcoin community is simply not there.

What makes the Ethereum hard fork different and a very dangerous precedent is that this hard fork was not about significantly improving Ethereum or about fixing a vulnerability in the Ethereum code. These are situations where immutability of coin ownership on the blockchain is preserved, It was about reversing a particular set of transactions. The prevention of this kind of transaction censorship is why Bitcoin was invented in the first place. If one reads Satoshi's original Bitcoin paper https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf this becomes readily apparent.

What Vitalik has done here is actually prove Satoshi wrong, since a highly distributed Proof of Work blockchain is not enough to prevent this kind of attack. This attack worked because it used persuasion rather than force. It relies on manufacturing a clearly identified  enemy and then persuading the majority that attacking this enemy is in the majority's best interest. History has many examples where this approach has led to war, genocide etc. A critical component of this attack is that the majority must be able to clearly identify the enemy and then launch the targeted attack.

ETC is just as vulnerable here as the pre fork ETH. Consider for example if the enemy was a "really evil" bank that had just been bailed out by the taxpayers at great expense. In that respect so is Bitcoin and any in the clear blockchain, including Litecoin for example. One solution worth considering here is to blind the censor by using an anonymous blockchain. For example it is next to impossible to pull of this kind on attack in Monero, in spite of the fact that Monero has hard forked in the past and is scheduled to hard fork in the future. What the Ethereum hard fork has done here is make the case for anon coins much stronger.  

Edit: The answer here is not to prevent a hard fork, it is instead to prevent a hard fork that only targets specific transactions.

Brilliant analysis.  We've explored the limits of block chain technology and its failure to deliver immutability, we've seen the first successful sustained 51% attack, and a genuine fork at the same time, in not even 2 weeks time.

I fully agree with you, and for a long time I've been arguing that anonymity is a necessary component, exactly because you can't identify the enemy.

[RoseMann]

OK look I agree that under the right circumstances a hard fork can be beneficial but it all depends on full disclosure, what was the announcement for it (i know im very behind here and trying to understand) Im reading through this thread and reading things about "trying to hide a particular set of transactions"

does anyone know the official reason from the devs for a hard fork?

[ArticMine]

OK look I agree that under the right circumstances a hard fork can be beneficial but it all depends on full disclosure, what was the announcement for it (i know im very behind here and trying to understand) Im reading through this thread and reading things about "trying to hide a particular set of transactions"

does anyone know the official reason from the devs for a hard fork?

... We would like to congratulate the Ethereum community on a successfully completed hard fork. Block 1920000 contained the execution of an irregular state change which transferred ~12 million ETH from the “Dark DAO” and “Whitehat DAO” contracts into the WithdrawDAO recovery contract. The fork itself took place smoothly, with roughly 85% of miners mining on the fork: ...

from:  https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/

Edit 1: The "enemy" here is the Dark DAO.
Edit 2: On July 20th, 2016 12 Million ETH were worth approximately 145 Million USD. The seizure of funds was done with no due process of law. It remains an open legal question where this seizure of funds was even lawful or even if the "DAO Hacker" was legally in the right. Can someone please point out to me a court of law in a competent jurisdiction that has actually ruled on the matter.  
Edit 3: Even the US Government is not immune from this attack if they are branded "the enemy" as this old thread illustrates. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=306809.0;all