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Author Topic: Ledger wallet - How to make an address totally disconnected from another?  (Read 3142 times)
MyBTT
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July 27, 2016, 10:22:04 AM
 #1

Thinking it would be cool to do this. If you can't do it already, it should be a thing!

Let's say I have one Ledger wallet. I understand that any address it generates will be a derivative of the private key. In this way, any addresses generated can be linked through something like walletexplorer.

But I've just realised after months of using my Ledger wallet that you can make new accounts inside the same wallet. So if I create an address here, will this address be totally disconnected from one that is in a different account? (Not connectable by something like walletexplorer)

Or is it just a UI thing, your addresses are in actuality together, but in the wallet are just shown seperately?

Also, if these addresses are actually unconnected, would this be be a security hazard for something like the forum

Regards.


 
 
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August 02, 2016, 08:45:44 PM
 #2

Well technically all your addresses are derived from the seed.
They are linked in a way, but figuring out how without the seed is nearly impossible.

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August 05, 2016, 04:55:03 AM
 #3

They are connected, no matter what. But it is impossible to find an address that belongs to the same seed another, unless the two are combined in the same transaction. But even this can mean that they are owned by the same user, but not derived from the same seed.
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August 05, 2016, 08:09:53 PM
 #4

This is an interesting thread.  I suppose the Ledger must work differently than the Trezor.  I know with a Trezor you can use infinitely many passphrases and generate wallets that cannot be associated with the other wallets (even though the core Trezor seed is the same).  To restore you need the seed + the appropriate passphrase for each wallet.  Using your word "disconnected" the varying passphrases accomplish that task well, especially if the passphrases are complex!

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August 19, 2016, 04:10:58 AM
 #5

This is an interesting thread.  I suppose the Ledger must work differently than the Trezor.  I know with a Trezor you can use infinitely many passphrases and generate wallets that cannot be associated with the other wallets (even though the core Trezor seed is the same).  To restore you need the seed + the appropriate passphrase for each wallet.  Using your word "disconnected" the varying passphrases accomplish that task well, especially if the passphrases are complex!

I don't own a trezor, so I don't know if they use hierarchical deterministic wallets or not. But after doing some research, I've found out I was mistaken. It is impossible to link an address to another without knowing the private seed. The way walletexplorer works by finding addresses that are send-linked to each other. They may not technichally be connected by the same private key either, they could just be signed together.


 
 
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August 20, 2016, 04:05:33 PM
 #6

This is an interesting thread.  I suppose the Ledger must work differently than the Trezor.  I know with a Trezor you can use infinitely many passphrases and generate wallets that cannot be associated with the other wallets (even though the core Trezor seed is the same).  To restore you need the seed + the appropriate passphrase for each wallet.  Using your word "disconnected" the varying passphrases accomplish that task well, especially if the passphrases are complex!

I don't own a trezor, so I don't know if they use hierarchical deterministic wallets or not. But after doing some research, I've found out I was mistaken. It is impossible to link an address to another without knowing the private seed. The way walletexplorer works by finding addresses that are send-linked to each other. They may not technichally be connected by the same private key either, they could just be signed together.

What Coin-Keeper is referring to is the fact that when you log in to your Trezor, you can provide a password. This password is then used together with your seed words to generate your private key. In this case, no password is "wrong" as any password provided will generate a different privatre key. In this way, you can use the trezor to get unlimited private keys from the same set of key words.

When you use the trezor with electrum or their web wallet, you can simple generate multiple accounts and use the different passwords to access them. This way they can never be linked together.

But, as you already say, you cannot link the generated addressess even if you use the same private key.
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August 20, 2016, 06:15:52 PM
 #7

This is an interesting thread.  I suppose the Ledger must work differently than the Trezor.  I know with a Trezor you can use infinitely many passphrases and generate wallets that cannot be associated with the other wallets (even though the core Trezor seed is the same).  To restore you need the seed + the appropriate passphrase for each wallet.  Using your word "disconnected" the varying passphrases accomplish that task well, especially if the passphrases are complex!

I don't own a trezor, so I don't know if they use hierarchical deterministic wallets or not. But after doing some research, I've found out I was mistaken. It is impossible to link an address to another without knowing the private seed. The way walletexplorer works by finding addresses that are send-linked to each other. They may not technichally be connected by the same private key either, they could just be signed together.

What Coin-Keeper is referring to is the fact that when you log in to your Trezor, you can provide a password. This password is then used together with your seed words to generate your private key. In this case, no password is "wrong" as any password provided will generate a different privatre key. In this way, you can use the trezor to get unlimited private keys from the same set of key words.

When you use the trezor with electrum or their web wallet, you can simple generate multiple accounts and use the different passwords to access them. This way they can never be linked together.

But, as you already say, you cannot link the generated addressess even if you use the same private key.


Exactly!  I use quite complex and unique passwords among my wallets to make relatively certain the keys are absolutely different.  The mathematics, and I love math, demonstrate squarely that this is a solid approach.  A good software package such as Electrum supports a full restore using this method on the Trezor.  Of course, you can't only know your seed words you must also know the associated passphrase or your bitcoins are gone!  You need both no exceptions!  You also get to in essence create a "decoy" wallet on a Trezor by using what I call a simple passphrase and if forced you can reveal that passphrase under threat.  There is NO way to determine other wallets have ever been generated by that device unless you reveal those passphrases as well.  Not even if they disassamble the device in a "3 letter agency" lab. 

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August 23, 2016, 08:33:50 PM
 #8

Wow! I have never used Trezor, but from what I have been reading so far, it looks like a full-proof desktop wallet to own. It's a pity it does not come with a free version, I use electrum wallet because it's free.
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August 24, 2016, 06:11:25 AM
 #9

This sounds like Trezor is utilizing the BIP39 "Passphrase" option.

https://dcpos.github.io/bip39/

This is a fantastic idea!
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August 25, 2016, 05:47:25 AM
 #10

Wow! I have never used Trezor, but from what I have been reading so far, it looks like a full-proof desktop wallet to own. It's a pity it does not come with a free version, I use electrum wallet because it's free.

Trezor is not a desktop wallet, it is a hardware wallet.

You can connect it to some popular desktop wallets though, such as electrum, and use the device to sign your transactions. This way, no password is needed on your desktop wallet, since everything is confirmed using the trezor device.

In my opininion it is great to have the option to have an easyily accessible wallet, with the security that comes close to cold storage.
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August 29, 2016, 04:59:08 AM
 #11

Wow! I have never used Trezor, but from what I have been reading so far, it looks like a full-proof desktop wallet to own. It's a pity it does not come with a free version, I use electrum wallet because it's free.


You can connect it to some popular desktop wallets though, such as electrum, and use the device to sign your transactions. This way, no password is needed on your desktop wallet, since everything is confirmed using the trezor device.

Like just put the trezor in the desktop and later opening the desktop wallet and can synchronize for automatically? Wow, that is a real sound is good for using a trezor at this time. But this is my first time heard about the hard wallet can connect into the desktop wallet without any problem. Huh

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August 29, 2016, 06:47:54 AM
 #12

Wow! I have never used Trezor, but from what I have been reading so far, it looks like a full-proof desktop wallet to own. It's a pity it does not come with a free version, I use electrum wallet because it's free.


You can connect it to some popular desktop wallets though, such as electrum, and use the device to sign your transactions. This way, no password is needed on your desktop wallet, since everything is confirmed using the trezor device.

Like just put the trezor in the desktop and later opening the desktop wallet and can synchronize for automatically? Wow, that is a real sound is good for using a trezor at this time. But this is my first time heard about the hard wallet can connect into the desktop wallet without any problem. Huh

Not really like that. First, you setup the trezor hardware wallet through the usual method (their website), you get a seed which is used to generate your private key. This is important, as this key never leaves the device  and therefore cannot be compromised.

Next, you initialize a trezor desktop wallet. Because it is a light wallet, it is automatically synchronized with the network, and doesn't need a lot of time. When you set it up using the trezor, the electrum wallet will show all the normal information as when you set it up differently (e.g. amount of coins, adresses, etc), BUT you cannot password protect it.

The only way to send a transaction is to connect your trezor to your pc, create a transaction in the wallet and than physically press a button on the trezor device (which is protected by a 4-10 digit pin and cannot be brute forced).

As you can see, this greatly improves the security of a desktop wallet, as you don't have the risk of your password being compromised. The only important things you will enter are only shown on your device, not your screen. You can still get compromised by address changing software though.
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October 16, 2016, 05:16:05 PM
 #13

I have a ledger wallet and it keeps addresses different from each other 90% of the time. 10% of the time they can be found in walletexplorer.com but this can be done only when you send almost all the amount you store in your ledger and send it from different addresses. Still this HW.1 hardware wallet I have it keeps creating a lot of different addresses every time I request to be paid. I have also checked these addresses in the walletexplorer.com website and they cannot be correlated in most of the time.




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November 15, 2016, 04:09:43 AM
 #14

I never used Ledger wallet, I assume you can create multiple wallets.

You would have to create separate wallets, that's how you get unrelated btc addresses.
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