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Author Topic: EU Manipulating BTC price and how to profit -  (Read 1680 times)
FandangledGizmo
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March 23, 2013, 02:22:56 PM
 #1

It looks like there may already be some attempted manipulation of BTC.
Well it seems a bit suspicious as there was no security event and it is probably one of the quietest trading times.

https://mtgox.com


From what I can gather from the graph, an incredibly high volume for BTC - 70 000 BTC was traded over a 3 hour period between 5am-8am on a Saturday morning (Obv. a very quiet trading time) this drove the price from 68 to a low of 52, almost a 25% drop, the price has already recovered in the last 3 hours to $67.

In one hour nearly 39 000 BTC were traded, even on the 12th of March when they had the biggest security event of the year it didn't reach that volume.

Maybe some attempt to bring down the price with all the bad Cyprus news going on?

If this is the case then they are doing something similar to what they attempt with gold & silver, dumping big volumes in thinly traded times.
It drives down the price quickly, makes it look volatile and can therefore discourages new investors.


If you are interested in buying BTC or know people that are it may be worth waiting for these thinly traded times when they may attempt to slam the price. 1. You will pick up your BTC for a great discount and 2. You will thwart their strategy.

Edit: Changed some BC to BTC

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MaxCoins
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March 23, 2013, 02:39:10 PM
 #2

Given the developments in the EU, that we can anticipate in the early days of the coming week, it makes no sense for Bitcoin to be dropping right now, quite the opposite, IMO. Very strange indeed.
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March 23, 2013, 02:53:37 PM
 #3

No doubt they will try this play in the future.  But they have deep pockets.  They would have made their play with a far greater sell off then this...until the job was done.

I think what you saw is simply a way overbought situation because of the fear the Cyprus event caused.

Too far, too fast.  It had to rebound.

The banksters still aren't taking Bitcoin that serious (good for them).  By the time they do it will be too late for them.
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March 23, 2013, 03:07:37 PM
 #4

I think you should use "BTC", instead of BC.  Grin

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March 23, 2013, 03:17:29 PM
 #5

Given the developments in the EU, that we can anticipate in the early days of the coming week, it makes no sense for Bitcoin to be dropping right now, quite the opposite, IMO. Very strange indeed.

Let's say someone had 100,000 BTC and doesn't hold a lot of gold/silver or something else - it'd perfectly make sense to push some BTC to other things just in case. Of course Bitcoin is great, but it's not exactly a wise strategy to put everything in Bitcoin (or anything else). The growth rate of Bitcoin is still very high. The situation of the EU isn't too bad: the ECB doesn't print as fast as the FED and Cyprus is like less than what Portland is to the US. The media hype about this could be pushed by banksters to make profits out of it similiar to the "fiscal cliff" thing in the US in January and then suddenly: "oh wait, everything's fine here"....
FandangledGizmo
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March 23, 2013, 03:26:14 PM
 #6

Quote
Let's say someone had 100,000 BTC and doesn't hold a lot of gold/silver or something else - it'd perfectly make sense to push some BTC to other things just in case.


Yes but if you were the person you were describing that wanted to shift 50 000 BTC, you would shift them by at most maybe 5000 BTC an hour and probably do it in peak trading times. This would get you the best possible price for your BTC.

What you wouldn't do is try sell 30 000 BTC at the most thinly traded hour of the day when even in peak times, the volume is only 10-15k. This cause the price to drop sharply and would get you the lowest possible price for your BTC.
nobbynobbynoob
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March 23, 2013, 03:31:19 PM
 #7

Kinda what chmod755 said.

The recent BTC price rally began well before the Cypriot news went global.
Gold and silver have been flat on their faces during all of this saga.
The cryptocurrency markets are still nascent and constitute less than a flea upon the banksters' elephant's back - for now.
If someone wants to take a BTC20k dump, they are altruistic because the coins are redistributed to more, and perhaps "stronger", hands.

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chmod755
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March 23, 2013, 03:35:21 PM
 #8

If someone wants to take a BTC20k dump, they are altruistic because the coins are redistributed to more, and perhaps "stronger", hands.

Yes, the new wealth distribution could make us even stronger. Imagine someone having 100k when the price of 1 bitcoin buys you a new car.... this could be very bad for everyone.

Edit: Of course not everyone is selling in exchange for government money - I heard there are actually many people spending BTC now.
Lucifer
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March 23, 2013, 04:30:35 PM
 #9

I also noticed a huge dip and then slow recovery in the Canadian exchange (cavertex.com) in the past 24 hours as well. There wasn't a particularly large volume traded today, but of course all the exchanges influence one another and there are some who trade in benefit in price differences between exchanges.
nobbynobbynoob
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March 23, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
 #10

With my BTC I either hold, buy tangible goods or buy LTC, mainly. I usually don't convert to bankster paper.

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Gator-hex
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March 23, 2013, 04:49:10 PM
 #11

It's an old (illegal) trading trick called a "wash trade".   Wink

You put a huge sell order in to flush out trades then follow it with a larger buy order mop up the cheap sells.

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March 23, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
 #12

It's an old (illegal) trading trick called a "wash trade".   Wink

You put a huge sell order in to flush out trades then follow it with a larger buy order mop up the cheap sells.
so opposite of pump and dump?

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Sage
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March 24, 2013, 03:58:48 AM
 #13

It's an old (illegal) trading trick called a "wash trade".   Wink

You put a huge sell order in to flush out trades then follow it with a larger buy order mop up the cheap sells.

...And can only be done in an overbought environment (which is what we had).  Likely some serious, and unethical traders have entered this game.

Bitcoin is traded thinly enough to make these kind of manipulations very doable.
Sage
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March 24, 2013, 04:39:33 AM
 #14

Likely some serious, and unethical traders have entered this game.

I don't think I would call them unethical as long as they aren't committing fraud.

If they own the coins, and want to sell them all at once, so be it. It's a risky game they play and the market will grow immune to this behavior over time, costing them money.

Unethical would be selling one "paper Bitcoin" to two or more individuals at the same time, much like many people suggest happens in the PM markets.

Manipulating the market I would always put in the unethical basket.

On the other side of the trade would you want the market manipulated against you?  Then why would you consider it "ethical" to do it to someone else?

Profit isn't the only variable to consider in a trade... unless your name is Bernie Madoff.
Sage
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March 24, 2013, 04:57:44 AM
 #15

Ethics, my friend, I would define as simply the golden rule.

Would you want it done to you?

Dumping 100,000 coins to intentionally crash the market only to buy back cheap may be profitable.  But it sure isn't ethical to all those that you affected by that action.

Just because it's not illegal sure as hell doesn't make it ethical.  Just ask Goldman Sacks.
w33mhz
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March 24, 2013, 05:06:19 AM
 #16

Not trying to argue with the ethics comments out there but you know if you see the price falling from someone putting a 100,000 BTC sale out there (and it is not a black pool ask) you have just as far a chance to cash in as well...... 

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Sage
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March 24, 2013, 05:28:50 AM
 #17

Ethics, my friend, I would define as simply the golden rule.

Would you want it done to you?

Dumping 100,000 coins to intentionally crash the market only to buy back cheap may be profitable.  But it sure isn't ethical to all those that you affected by that action.

Just because it's not illegal sure as hell doesn't make it ethical.  Just ask Goldman Sacks.

Would I want what done to me? Someone selling 100,000 Bitcoins is doing nothing to me. I choose to hold Bitcoins and because of that choice I must accept the consequences of any exchange rate fluctuations. Anyone who is "affected" by someone selling Bitcoins has put themselves in that position by holding Bitcoins. The seller is not to blame for any losses the holder incurs. It's such a ridiculous proposition that it would render all trade unethical (it's simply a matter of scale)! As long as I am not forced to use Bitcoin (through legal tender laws, etc.) the question of ethics does not come up.

Banks like Goldman Sacks work inside a system built with rules they've chosen themselves. This is the type of market I would call unethical. This is why I say there should be no rules about who I can sell to (buy from), when I can sell (buy), or how much I can sell (buy). The rules which apply to some, but not all, are what allows these unethical practices to occur. When everyone plays by the same rules, everyone encounters the same risk.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother trying to convince you further.

Lots of new investors are entering this market now.  And are easy prey for a hardened trader with resources to move the market. That sure as hell doesn't make it right to prey on them when the situations develop.

Your intentions and your ethics in your trades is your business.  At the end of the day you have to look yourself in the mirror.

You, I, everyone, creates all kinds of confabulations to justify our unethical behavior.  And the danger is self-delusion covers its own tracks.  We don't even realize we are doing it.

...they key then, is to recognize when we are confabulating to ourselves.  And oh, how few have that kind of self-awareness.

Careful the road you're going down, defining something as an "inside system" or whatever creative confabulation to make what Goldman Sacks did wrong, and manipulating the Bitcoin market right.

Confabulations only blind ourselves to the underlying truth.

At the end of the day, if you're preying on someones ignorance or simple naivety you're being unethical regardless of the context.

...And that always carries a consequence. No one is an island.



SilverVigilante
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March 24, 2013, 05:35:16 AM
 #18

For those who don't know sunday may 1 2011 silver was sold off sunday evening in the us resulting in its fall From 50. I write about this at silver vigilante and goldsilverbitcoin.com. good thread.

advisers
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March 24, 2013, 09:32:05 AM
 #19

Until btc becomes widely used and accepted, which will take years, expect mega fluctuations in its price... just read that someone might be holding 25% of the total btc reserves... just imagine the market manipulation power that this means...
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