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Author Topic: BitcoPlay.com Online Casino Goes Live  (Read 3122 times)
TradeFortress
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March 26, 2013, 07:41:58 AM
 #21

The graphics are absolutely incredible. Far better looking than any other bitcoin casino I've played at. You're really raising the bar here.
Agreed, but it's not provably fair which means I'm not going to bet anything more than 1 btc on it.

Ahh, so? Then how about this...

We are ready to give a prize of 5 BTC to you (or anyone else) who can prove scientifically that the following statement is wrong:

You can develop a provably fair video slot game that has a payout of 75% only, yet players will not be able to prove this fact unless they do statistical analysis of the actual payouts of the game or have access to the server-side source code.

Unless the above statement is proved wrong, then ANY casino claiming to be provably fair CAN potentially CHEAT in video slot games.

Please note that this applies to video slots only! One more thing to keep in mind is that the above does not state that current provably fair slots are necessarily cheating. It just implies that there is a *possibility* for a provably fair slot to cheat players and thus we come to trust again.

BitcoPlay.com is a 100% fair and honest casino!

This isn't how it works. It's up to YOU to prove that a provably fair casino can cheat. A proper provably fair casino (that lets users give their own inputs) cannot because the user is able to directly influence the results.

Casinos can't generate secrets that are more likely to get the player to lose, because the player's input is ~dozens of characters long and it's simply impossible to brute force through that search space and see if this secret will on average give better results.
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March 26, 2013, 07:44:35 AM
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Instead of asking me to prove "provably fair casinos can still cheat" is wrong, it's up to you to prove that "provably fair casinos can cheat" is right.
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March 26, 2013, 08:21:49 AM
 #23

Instead of asking me to prove "provably fair casinos can still cheat" is wrong, it's up to you to prove that "provably fair casinos can cheat" is right.

We are not sure what sort of casinos you have dealt with but the platform that we use is fair and honest. Nothing is manipulated. Mersenne twister implementation is used for RNG and we are also discussing possibility of adopting a hardware RNG.

Well, we can understand a fierce reaction of the competition. A serious player has entered the arena with a serious product. But this is business. We don't care about competition much. Though, we do care about our customers, employees and shareholders. That's it.

So, until/unless anyone proves our previous statement and grabs the 5 BTC prize, we cannot accept any groundless claims re: credibility Smiley

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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March 26, 2013, 09:00:25 AM
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Instead of asking me to prove "provably fair casinos can still cheat" is wrong, it's up to you to prove that "provably fair casinos can cheat" is right.

We are not sure what sort of casinos you have dealt with but the platform that we use is fair and honest. Nothing is manipulated. Mersenne twister implementation is used for RNG and we are also discussing possibility of adopting a hardware RNG.

Well, we can understand a fierce reaction of the competition. A serious player has entered the arena with a serious product. But this is business. We don't care about competition much. Though, we do care about our customers, employees and shareholders. That's it.

So, until/unless anyone proves our previous statement and grabs the 5 BTC prize, we cannot accept any groundless claims re: credibility Smiley

I am not affiliated with any bitcoin gambling site. I just advertise them in my sig.

You don't ask someone to disprove cancer can't be cured. You prove it by curing cancer. Likewise, it's up to you to prove that a proper provably fair casino can be cheating.

Heck I'll even throw in a 10 BTC prize for you (or anyone else).
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March 26, 2013, 08:04:23 PM
 #25

Introducing BitcoPlay.com games

True 3D Classic Slot - as Real as Slots Can Be

True 3D Classic Slot is one of our games dedicated to realistic graphics, sounds, and interface. It is as real a representation of the classic Casino Slot Machine as it can be, right down to the knobbed handle for spins and glossed labels that declare winnings and values. The background noise is what can only be standard Casino ambient music with chatter of those other Casino frequenters as well. The reels mirror with amazing detail the slot machine of the casino, right down to the oblong images on the reel and the top bottom lighting.

http://cdn.bitcoplay.com/external/games/T3DClassicSlot.jpg

Each spin of the reel introduces those familiar melodies, with each stop giving the hard but familiar thunk. Using the knob to spin gives the sounds of falling coins, and winning reels play the buzz. In short, True 3D Classic Slot not only looks like you're in the casino, it sounds like it too, and the beautifully realized slot machine will make it feel like it.

Like what you see? We have more in stock. Come and play at BitcoPlay.com

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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March 26, 2013, 08:09:56 PM
 #26

Congrats on the launch! Your product looks amazing, and I wish you much success! I'm really glad to see bigger players entering the bitcoin gambling market.

I do want to address one issue you brought up:

Ahh, so? Then how about this...

We are ready to give a prize of 5 BTC to you (or anyone else) who can prove scientifically that the following statement is wrong:

You can develop a provably fair video slot game that has a payout of 75% only, yet players will not be able to prove this fact unless they do statistical analysis of the actual payouts of the game or have access to the server-side source code.

Unless the above statement is proved wrong, then ANY casino claiming to be provably fair CAN potentially CHEAT in video slot games.

I want to address this, because we do provide provably fair slots, and we specifically indicate that our game offers a 99% return-to-player. We spent a lot of time ensuring that our slots game is indeed provably fair, and even developed a novel technique for computing a slots outcome from any shuffled deck, so that our existing provably fair methodology could be applied to our slots game as well.

As long as the house provides the reel-configuration and the pay-table (which are both easy for players to verify without doing in-depth statistical analysis), it is possible for a player to calculate the return-to-player percentage of any slot machine. For an example, take a look at the wizardofodds.com game design for their slots game: http://wizardofodds.com/play/slots/australian-reels/5-line/math/. Given only the reel-configuration, and the pay-table, they calculate the exact payout.

As another example, our provably fair slots game has the following count of symbols per reel:

Code:
Symbol  Reel 1  Reel 2  Reel 3
b3      1       5       3
b2      5       1       6
b1      8       10      1
z3      5       3       6
z2      6       6       7
z1      7       7       9
        32      32      32

Combining the above with the pay table, you can calculate the following table:

Code:
Win       Payout  Combinations   Probability         Return
b3-b2-b1  500     1              3.0517578125E-05    0.0152587890625
b3-b3-b3  45      15             0.00045776367188    0.02059936523438
b2-b2-b2  35      30             0.00091552734375    0.03204345703125
b1-b1-b1  25      80             0.00244140625       0.06103515625
z3-z3-z3  20      90             0.00274658203125    0.054931640625
z2-z2-z2  15      252            0.0076904296875     0.1153564453125
z1-z1-z1  10      441            0.01345825195312    0.13458251953125
b-b-b     6       2114           0.06451416015625    0.3870849609375
z-z-z     1       5553           0.16946411132812    0.16946411132812

If you add up all the Returns, you get the following total return-to-player: 0.9903564453125.

So, as long as the house provides the accurate pay-table and reel-configuration, it is possible to independently calculate the return-to-player for a given slots game. Thus, it would not be possible for the house to deceive the player about the actual return-to-player for their slots games - as long as they provide the reel-configuration and pay-table.

I really do encourage you to look into making your games provably fair. It's good for you (because your players will trust you more), good for your players (because they'll know they weren't cheated), and good for bitcoin (because bitcoin casinos are leading the charge in revolutionizing the online gambling industry).

If you're serious about the 5 BTC, please donate it to the Bitcoin Foundation Smiley

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March 26, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
 #27

As long as the house provides the reel-configuration and the pay-table (which are both easy for players to verify without doing in-depth statistical analysis), it is possible for a player to calculate the return-to-player percentage of any slot machine.

Not to nitpick here, but that's not exactly true. At least not in Vegas. Reel configurations in physical slots stay the same, but the par sheet changes based on electronic weighting which is not disclosed to the player. A reel with 5 single cherry instances on it can be weighted to come up cherry an extra 1 time in a thousand, if they want it to. That's how they adjust RTP without changing the pay table.

Now it is true that a slot with a 1-to-1 instance to weight ratio of symbols on all reels -- or a game like VP where the deck odds are known -- can definitely be proven fair if the pay table and outcome are made known to the player. But it's worth pointing out that all that is needed to make the game provably fair is a pay table and raw data to conduct a statistical analysis. If you're providing that to the players, then actually giving cryptographic proof is kind of a pointless extra. It may make some players feel better, and I have no problem with that, but like you said once the player has the actual RTP values, the reel configs or basic odds of the game, and the outcomes of all the play sessions, that's already enough to prove whether the game is fair or show if it's rigged.

Of course a house could manipulate those figures. That's what licensing jurisdictions are supposed to audit, and why most reputable casinos operate out of Malta, Curacao, etc. It's worth pointing out that a "provably fair" casino using two keys could also cheat by discarding a hash that was unfavorable to the house without the player ever knowing about it. Unless all the stats are made visible at the end of the day, there's no way to know whether a skew like that is happening.

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March 26, 2013, 11:09:21 PM
 #28

As long as the house provides the reel-configuration and the pay-table (which are both easy for players to verify without doing in-depth statistical analysis), it is possible for a player to calculate the return-to-player percentage of any slot machine.

Not to nitpick here, but that's not exactly true. At least not in Vegas. Reel configurations in physical slots stay the same, but the par sheet changes based on electronic weighting which is not disclosed to the player. A reel with 5 single cherry instances on it can be weighted to come up cherry an extra 1 time in a thousand, if they want it to. That's how they adjust RTP without changing the pay table.

Now it is true that a slot with a 1-to-1 instance to weight ratio of symbols on all reels -- or a game like VP where the deck odds are known -- can definitely be proven fair if the pay table and outcome are made known to the player. But it's worth pointing out that all that is needed to make the game provably fair is a pay table and raw data to conduct a statistical analysis. If you're providing that to the players, then actually giving cryptographic proof is kind of a pointless extra. It may make some players feel better, and I have no problem with that, but like you said once the player has the actual RTP values, the reel configs or basic odds of the game, and the outcomes of all the play sessions, that's already enough to prove whether the game is fair or show if it's rigged.

Of course a house could manipulate those figures. That's what licensing jurisdictions are supposed to audit, and why most reputable casinos operate out of Malta, Curacao, etc. It's worth pointing out that a "provably fair" casino using two keys could also cheat by discarding a hash that was unfavorable to the house without the player ever knowing about it. Unless all the stats are made visible at the end of the day, there's no way to know whether a skew like that is happening.
The hash is shown to the player (hash of hash), and the player can specify their own secret. So the casino cannot discard a hash, because the player knows the hashed forms already.

Also, shady online casinos can make a slot or card come up more often than others if t can't be proved that it is decided beforehand or can be directly influenced by the player.
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March 27, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
 #29

Congrats on the launch! Your product looks amazing, and I wish you much success! I'm really glad to see bigger players entering the bitcoin gambling market.

I do want to address one issue you brought up:

Ahh, so? Then how about this...

We are ready to give a prize of 5 BTC to you (or anyone else) who can prove scientifically that the following statement is wrong:

You can develop a provably fair video slot game that has a payout of 75% only, yet players will not be able to prove this fact unless they do statistical analysis of the actual payouts of the game or have access to the server-side source code.

Unless the above statement is proved wrong, then ANY casino claiming to be provably fair CAN potentially CHEAT in video slot games.

I want to address this, because we do provide provably fair slots, and we specifically indicate that our game offers a 99% return-to-player. We spent a lot of time ensuring that our slots game is indeed provably fair, and even developed a novel technique for computing a slots outcome from any shuffled deck, so that our existing provably fair methodology could be applied to our slots game as well.

As long as the house provides the reel-configuration and the pay-table (which are both easy for players to verify without doing in-depth statistical analysis), it is possible for a player to calculate the return-to-player percentage of any slot machine. For an example, take a look at the wizardofodds.com game design for their slots game: http://wizardofodds.com/play/slots/australian-reels/5-line/math/. Given only the reel-configuration, and the pay-table, they calculate the exact payout.

As another example, our provably fair slots game has the following count of symbols per reel:

Code:
Symbol  Reel 1  Reel 2  Reel 3
b3      1       5       3
b2      5       1       6
b1      8       10      1
z3      5       3       6
z2      6       6       7
z1      7       7       9
        32      32      32

Combining the above with the pay table, you can calculate the following table:

Code:
Win       Payout  Combinations   Probability         Return
b3-b2-b1  500     1              3.0517578125E-05    0.0152587890625
b3-b3-b3  45      15             0.00045776367188    0.02059936523438
b2-b2-b2  35      30             0.00091552734375    0.03204345703125
b1-b1-b1  25      80             0.00244140625       0.06103515625
z3-z3-z3  20      90             0.00274658203125    0.054931640625
z2-z2-z2  15      252            0.0076904296875     0.1153564453125
z1-z1-z1  10      441            0.01345825195312    0.13458251953125
b-b-b     6       2114           0.06451416015625    0.3870849609375
z-z-z     1       5553           0.16946411132812    0.16946411132812

If you add up all the Returns, you get the following total return-to-player: 0.9903564453125.

So, as long as the house provides the accurate pay-table and reel-configuration, it is possible to independently calculate the return-to-player for a given slots game. Thus, it would not be possible for the house to deceive the player about the actual return-to-player for their slots games - as long as they provide the reel-configuration and pay-table.

I really do encourage you to look into making your games provably fair. It's good for you (because your players will trust you more), good for your players (because they'll know they weren't cheated), and good for bitcoin (because bitcoin casinos are leading the charge in revolutionizing the online gambling industry).

If you're serious about the 5 BTC, please donate it to the Bitcoin Foundation Smiley

Eventhough I was dubbed noob, and I don't take it as an offense as I am really noob with Bitcoin, I do have experience with design of slot machines. However, the problem that you have lies in this:

"So, as long as the house provides the accurate pay-table and reel-configuration, it is possible to independently calculate the return-to-player for a given slots game. Thus, it would not be possible for the house to deceive the player about the actual return-to-player for their slots games - as long as they provide the reel-configuration and pay-table."

Yes, it's up to the house to provide accurate pay-table. Nothing prevents the house from providing an inaccurate one. And that's the big problem and I am sure that's the point that Bitcoplay is trying to say.

I am currently consulting a group of people who are about to enter the Bitcoin gambling market and I have been telling them the same. Provably fair is not a panacea. You know that you artificially streched it to the slots. For card games where a deck is involved it works just fine but not for video slots. It's not something to trust a-priory. So, I think BitcoPlay guys (though I think those are more Playborne guys because they're the creators of the game) are right. It's possible to make a slot game that is provably fair and can still deceive.
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March 28, 2013, 11:29:56 AM
 #30

...explains provably fair slot technique...
Hi libertaad,

I don't think it makes any sense to explain this to BitcoPlay. They know it; they simply don't care about being fair. As they stated above they care about their profits. To maximize profits all traditional casino software uses psychological models to keep the player playing, even when losing, to get as much as possible out of each player. And the best thing about this psychological model manipulation is that it looks statistically fair. The whole concept this is the exact opposite of provably fair.

BitcoPlay walks seems to prefer that path while a provably fair casino like yours walks the honest and fair path. Unfortunately the honest players often cannot spot the difference, meaning those manipulations are still very very profitable for the casinos...

tl;dr: BitcoPlay will not join the light side of the Force

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March 28, 2013, 12:00:38 PM
 #31

...explains provably fair slot technique...
Hi libertaad,

I don't think it makes any sense to explain this to BitcoPlay. They know it; they simply don't care about being fair. As they stated above they care about their profits. To maximize profits all traditional casino software uses psychological models to keep the player playing, even when losing, to get as much as possible out of each player. And the best thing about this psychological model manipulation is that it looks statistically fair. The whole concept this is the exact opposite of provably fair.

BitcoPlay walks seems to prefer that path while a provably fair casino like yours walks the honest and fair path. Unfortunately the honest players often cannot spot the difference, meaning those manipulations are still very very profitable for the casinos...

tl;dr: BitcoPlay will not join the light side of the Force


Yes you're right. Bitcoplay is a profit only oriented, using magical phsychological tricks. OMG, I've just made a huge discovery. Provably fairs have positive EV! They are charity. Bravo. Did you notice how funny you sound?

I think for now I looked at all casinos where you can play with bitcoin and played a little bit here and there and Bitcoplay is by far the best, at least visually. I played some of their games and in fact the games are really nice, though not all are of the same quality and some are just ok. On the provably fairs front SD is really cool game and it was fun at other places too, especially when you're winning.

Honestly, I don't much care neither about bitcplay nor any other casino and i'm not affiliated with any of them. I'm just a casual gamer and I'm just saying what i see. And your post is totally misleadning (though I'm sure that's pretty much what its goal was, wasn't it?).
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March 28, 2013, 05:51:01 PM
 #32

Sorry to derail this thread. Ultimately, I just want to correct the facts regarding provably fair games. Mainly: it is possible to create provably fair slots, and it does provide a real benefit to players.

A reel with 5 single cherry instances on it can be weighted to come up cherry an extra 1 time in a thousand, if they want it to. That's how they adjust RTP without changing the pay table.

That's a good point: If you want to create provably fair slots, you cannot "weight" the reels. But, since you won't be adjusting the RTP on-the-fly for online games, then this really shouldn't be an issue anyway.

Of course a house could manipulate those figures. That's what licensing jurisdictions are supposed to audit, and why most reputable casinos operate out of Malta, Curacao, etc.

Provably fair systems allow players to independently verify every single wager they make - usually immediately after the wager is complete. Effectively, this is a zero-trust system: players don't have to trust third-party licensing providers to be confident they're getting a fair game. In many ways, this is a parallel to bitcoin itself being a zero-trust system that doesn't force you to trust bankers in order to store and transfer value. I think that is one reason why bitcoin users are drawn to provably fair games.

It's worth pointing out that a "provably fair" casino using two keys could also cheat by discarding a hash that was unfavorable to the house without the player ever knowing about it.

If the provably fair system is implemented correctly, then this is not true. A player would be able to detect that the house has discarded the hash, and would immediately know they are being cheated.

Yes, it's up to the house to provide accurate pay-table. Nothing prevents the house from providing an inaccurate one. And that's the big problem and I am sure that's the point that Bitcoplay is trying to say.

If the house is lying about their pay table, then the player would know something was wrong as soon as they won something and didn't get paid the correct amount. This deception wouldn't last long.

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April 03, 2013, 06:33:31 AM
 #33

Thank you for your feedback. However, you cannot make a video slot, at least one with a potential of jackpots and high payouts without weighing the reels. If you don't understand this, it means that you have not built a video slot at all. We have specifically pointed out that it is video slots that is problematic and not the classic slots (weighing is not relevant there, though can be used).

On the other hand, there are a lot if IFs in your analysis. But, what IF the provably fair system is not implemented correctly? The logic of the slots is on the server and without verifying the game engine's source code, you never know weather it is implemented correctly or not. The bottom line is that, the house can still cheat even with a provably fair system in place. The only way to be 100% sure that the house does not cheat, is to have the same source code that is used on the server.

We do not imply that provably fair systems are bad. On the contrary, we admit that they do provide a layer of protection for players, however, they also create an illusion that you cannot lose in a provably fair casino, which is far from being true. Another criticism that we have is that regular casino players are very far from hashes and cryptography and they can never really verify if the house is cheating or not. Early adopters of Bitcoin are mostly tech savvy and probably fair systems attract them and we do understand this. However, when the regulars hit the market, they won't care, because for them it still will be abracadabra.

If you do not believe that developing a provably fair video slot that cheats is a possibility, we recommend that you get in touch with our software provider.

On this, we would like to finish this discussion. Let the players decide what they want to play: crypto games with poor graphics and gameplay or truly entertaining casino games. In the long run, players do lose at both. That's why we are a strong advocate of responsible gaming. Gaming shall be approached as entertainment, not as a means to make money. Of course, sometimes players win and sometimes they win big, but in the long run, the law of large numbers takes the reign.

Sorry to derail this thread. Ultimately, I just want to correct the facts regarding provably fair games. Mainly: it is possible to create provably fair slots, and it does provide a real benefit to players.

A reel with 5 single cherry instances on it can be weighted to come up cherry an extra 1 time in a thousand, if they want it to. That's how they adjust RTP without changing the pay table.

That's a good point: If you want to create provably fair slots, you cannot "weight" the reels. But, since you won't be adjusting the RTP on-the-fly for online games, then this really shouldn't be an issue anyway.

Of course a house could manipulate those figures. That's what licensing jurisdictions are supposed to audit, and why most reputable casinos operate out of Malta, Curacao, etc.

Provably fair systems allow players to independently verify every single wager they make - usually immediately after the wager is complete. Effectively, this is a zero-trust system: players don't have to trust third-party licensing providers to be confident they're getting a fair game. In many ways, this is a parallel to bitcoin itself being a zero-trust system that doesn't force you to trust bankers in order to store and transfer value. I think that is one reason why bitcoin users are drawn to provably fair games.

It's worth pointing out that a "provably fair" casino using two keys could also cheat by discarding a hash that was unfavorable to the house without the player ever knowing about it.

If the provably fair system is implemented correctly, then this is not true. A player would be able to detect that the house has discarded the hash, and would immediately know they are being cheated.

Yes, it's up to the house to provide accurate pay-table. Nothing prevents the house from providing an inaccurate one. And that's the big problem and I am sure that's the point that Bitcoplay is trying to say.

If the house is lying about their pay table, then the player would know something was wrong as soon as they won something and didn't get paid the correct amount. This deception wouldn't last long.

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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April 03, 2013, 07:33:20 AM
 #34

100% WELCOME BONUS IS HERE!!!! CLICK HERE TO SNAP YOURS NOW

http://cdn.bitcoplay.com/external/promo/bonus.jpg

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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April 04, 2013, 02:26:11 AM
 #35

Bug? I already wagered some bitcoins but I still get this message:

Maximum amount that you can withdraw is 1.0140. You have a pending bonus of 1.0000. In order to get this reward, you need to wager 10.0000 more.

Went down a bit, but it doesn't go down anymore when I bet.
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April 04, 2013, 03:10:57 AM
 #36

The deposit bonus is +EV if you play jacks or better at least. However, the site does not calculate the wagers correctly.
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April 04, 2013, 05:37:28 AM
 #37

Bug? I already wagered some bitcoins but I still get this message:

Maximum amount that you can withdraw is 1.0140. You have a pending bonus of 1.0000. In order to get this reward, you need to wager 10.0000 more.

Went down a bit, but it doesn't go down anymore when I bet.

The rollover calculation is not instant. It is recalculated once the game session is complete. This happens approx. 10-15 minutes after the game is complete. If you still do not see your rollover increase, please let us know your username. The best way is to email support.

Thank you for playing at BitcoPlay.com and good luck.

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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April 04, 2013, 05:58:14 AM
 #38

Bug? I already wagered some bitcoins but I still get this message:

Maximum amount that you can withdraw is 1.0140. You have a pending bonus of 1.0000. In order to get this reward, you need to wager 10.0000 more.

Went down a bit, but it doesn't go down anymore when I bet.

The rollover calculation is not instant. It is recalculated once the game session is complete. This happens approx. 10-15 minutes after the game is complete. If you still do not see your rollover increase, please let us know your username. The best way is to email support.

Thank you for playing at BitcoPlay.com and good luck.
Thanks, probably a good idea to note it on the 100% bonus page
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April 05, 2013, 07:33:45 AM
 #39

When are withdraws processed?
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April 08, 2013, 11:04:02 AM
 #40

Bug? I already wagered some bitcoins but I still get this message:

Maximum amount that you can withdraw is 1.0140. You have a pending bonus of 1.0000. In order to get this reward, you need to wager 10.0000 more.

Went down a bit, but it doesn't go down anymore when I bet.

The rollover calculation is not instant. It is recalculated once the game session is complete. This happens approx. 10-15 minutes after the game is complete. If you still do not see your rollover increase, please let us know your username. The best way is to email support.

Thank you for playing at BitcoPlay.com and good luck.
Thanks, probably a good idea to note it on the 100% bonus page

May we remind you that our Terms and Conditions page clearly describes this? On the other hand, withdrawal processing has nothing to do with the bonus.

100% WELCOME BONUS * HIGH PAYOUTS * FANTASTIC GAMES * US PLAYERS WELCOME (https://www.bitcoplay.com)
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