Why do you need to download 7 years of chain block

[sandaq]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

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[mocacinno]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

That's just the basic concept of bitcoin, it's a decentralised ledger, no authority, no banks... All users can (and should) download the full blockchain. If you would use 1 or 2 centralised servers, it wouldn't be a decentralised system

That being said, there are alternatives... If the synchronisation of the blockchain is to much for you: you can use an SPV client.

Examples are: electrum and multibit HD

[sandaq]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

That's just the basic concept of bitcoin, it's a decentralised ledger, no authority, no banks... All users can (and should) download the full blockchain. If you would use 1 or 2 centralised servers, it wouldn't be a decentralised system

Well, I look at linux as an example of decentralized system. poeple download it online. I doesn't have 1 or 2 servers but houndreds of independent mirror servers and you can download it from any of them. or is it a bad example?

Also, I might not grasp the subject fully, but where is the blockchain downloaded from?

[mocacinno]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

That's just the basic concept of bitcoin, it's a decentralised ledger, no authority, no banks... All users can (and should) download the full blockchain. If you would use 1 or 2 centralised servers, it wouldn't be a decentralised system

Well, I look at linux as an example of decentralized system. poeple download it online. I doesn't have 1 or 2 servers but houndreds of independent mirror servers and you can download it from any of them. or is it a bad example?

Also, I might not grasp the subject fully, but where is the blockchain downloaded from?

Hi,

I edited my previous post, but apparently you already quoted it before i saved my edits (i was a bit to slow ) .

To answer these questions:
Question 1: the example of comparing bitcoin to linux is not a very good one, that being said, you can actually use an SPV client (like i mentioned above).
This client will connect to a central server that has has been synched. Those SPV clients will only manage your private keys, labels and adresbook. That way you have most of the security of a desktop wallet without having to download all blocks.

Question 2: The blockchain is downloaded from other peers, but not from a centralised server.

[achow101]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

The entire purpose of downloading the entire blockchain is to independently verify it and allow for the independent verification of every single block and transaction that occurs later. The only thing that a full node needs to "trust" is the genesis block, the very first block of the blockchain. This is actually hard coded into the software so that there is a defined starting point. After that, the node downloads all of the blocks from its peers. It will check each transaction in the block, and then check the block to ensure that it is valid. Because each block is chained together and transactions are also chained together, it is not possible to start from any point in the blockchain other than the beginning and still maintain trustlessness.

[HCP]

Well, I look at linux as an example of decentralized system. poeple download it online. I doesn't have 1 or 2 servers but houndreds of independent mirror servers and you can download it from any of them. or is it a bad example?

Also, I might not grasp the subject fully, but where is the blockchain downloaded from?

Your example is pretty much what Electrum and other SPV wallets do... it allows you to just connect to one of these "mirrors" and get the bits important to you... ie. the inbound and outbound transactions on your wallet.

Effectively, these SPV systems are "thin clients" onto the Blockchain... connecting to compatible "full nodes" that have the full blockchain. Unsurprisingly, one of the main reasons they came into being is for the very reason you are posting... that is, the storage requirements of the blockchain

It also helps with mobility. Can you imagine putting the full blockchain on a mobile device? 

[belcher]

You download the entire blockchain to check for yourself that:

1. nobody created more bitcoins than are allowed
2. that nobody spent a bitcoin not belonging to them
3. that all the other rules of bitcoin were followed. (e.g. difficulty)

[Ned Kelly]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

You do not. Problem is that you have a wrong mindset. You say

wasted disk space

It the same as saying: Why bank vaults need all these security? Just buy a garden shed and put all your valuables in it. Why waste all steel, concrete ect.? 

[Laviathon]

Eventually they need to find some way to better compress the chain would be nice for a start.

[Ned Kelly]

Eventually they need to find some way to better compress the chain would be nice for a start.

I think no need for that. Even if all blocks will be full, blockchain will grow by 52G per year. And modest 1T hard drive, will be enough for ~20 years. Such HDD costs $50 it's BTC0.1.

[shorena]

Eventually they need to find some way to better compress the chain would be nice for a start.

I think no need for that. Even if all blocks will be full, blockchain will grow by 52G per year. And modest 1T hard drive, will be enough for ~20 years. Such HDD costs $50 it's BTC0.1.

Block must be bigger in the future, they will indirectly with SegWit already. Keep in mind that someone new must also be able to download all that data in reasonable time. Its not only about diskspace.

[bill gator]

Eventually they need to find some way to better compress the chain would be nice for a start.

I think no need for that. Even if all blocks will be full, blockchain will grow by 52G per year. And modest 1T hard drive, will be enough for ~20 years. Such HDD costs $50 it's BTC0.1.

Block must be bigger in the future, they will indirectly with SegWit already. Keep in mind that someone new must also be able to download all that data in reasonable time. Its not only about diskspace.

I just moved out to a rural area, and I have the fastest internet available to me. I recently accidentally corrupted my Core Client with a bad re-boot.. So I had to completely re-sync the entire blockchain. This took me literally 56-Hours of leaving my laptop running with exclusively Core Open. It definitely is about being about to get that data in a reasonable time, which currently is constrained and only getting worse.

[Gahs]

The block chain should be placed in segments: year by year. So the miner selects the year(s) he wants to download, you can imagine the data load 50 years from now. How do you download tons of Gigabyte?

[DannyHamilton]

How do you download tons of Gigabyte?

You mean Terabytes?

Patiently.

According to speedmatters.org, average USA broadband speed is 11.7 Mbps.

If you want to download 3 Terabytes (3,000 Gigabytes) at that speed it would take you about 23.75 days.

Of course if the blocksize stays at 1 megabyte per block, it will take more than 50 years to reach 3 Terabytes.

Do you really think that communication speeds for the average person will still only be 11.7 Mbps 50 years from now?  Doesn't it seem much more likely that faster forms of communication will be developed and implemented over the next few decades?  How fast was electronic communication for the average person 50 years ago (back in 1966)?

If communications in 50 years is 10 times faster than it is today, then it will only take about 2.5 days to download a 3 Terabyte blockchain.

Now, if we increase the blocksize, then we'll need storage space and communications speeds to increase fast enough to keep up.

[cr1776]

How do you download tons of Gigabyte?

...
According to speedmatters.org, average USA broadband speed is 11.7 Mbps.
...

Danny is right, and that is just the average. 

xfinity runs at least 88 Mbps right now or 8.8 MBps  => 528MB/minute = >31GB/hour => 744GB/day.

AT&T Fiber (GigaPower) 300Mbps = about 2.5TB/day.

In 1980 one was lucky to get 300bps (or 180bps).  No one serious thinks this has peaked.

[TransaDox]

Danny is right, and that is just the average. 

xfinity runs at least 88 Mbps right now or 8.8 MBps  => 528MB/minute = >31GB/hour => 744GB/day.

AT&T Fiber (GigaPower) 300Mbps = about 2.5TB/day.

In 1980 one was lucky to get 300bps (or 180bps).  No one serious thinks this has peaked.

So now bandwidth is being dismissed by the same flawed arguments as the disk space?  

Completely ignoring data caps and low speed restrictions imposed by providers. Completely ignoring that only first world countries have these sorts of high speed infrastructures (the US is hardly the worst performer in the world). Completely ignoring that most people want to run more than just one application that sucks up all their bandwidth. Completely ignoring that while writing a technology cheque way into some mythical rose-tinted future, the only ones that are likely to be able to afford it are corporations, governments and fat cats.

Bitcoin wasn't around in 1980 and has gone from zero to datacenter in a couple of years (let alone 40) due to the resources required to run the system and we are supposed to believe the tech available to the average Joe will be good enough in another 10 when it's struggling now?

Makes my blood boil!    

[TransaDox]

ok, so I installed bitcoin core latest version and it downloaded over 80G of chain block. Let's assume, just for the fun of it, there are 1000 bitcoin core users out there. That's ~8T of wasted disk space. and considering bitcoin will live another 7 years and it will grow of couse, that's like ~20T of disk space (1000 users remember?) for what? couldn't be a centerlaize, maybe mirrored, location that the client will ask for the chain block from there? Why do we need to download it?

The short answer is you don't. They could make it a distributed file system but all the people that actually know how it all works are tied up working on schemes to try and screw as much money out of the users rather than improving the protocol.

I don't know why they don't just put the thing on newsgroups and we all use web wallets seeing as the only people that really matter are the miners.

[DannyHamilton]

So now bandwidth is being dismissed by the same flawed arguments as the disk space?  

Now?

Always has been.

(the US is hardly the worst performer in the world)

Nor the best.

Completely ignoring data caps and low speed restrictions imposed by providers. Completely ignoring that only first world countries have these sorts of high speed infrastructures (the US is hardly the worst performer in the world). Completely ignoring that most people want to run more than just one application that sucks up all their bandwidth. Completely ignoring that while writing a technology cheque way into some mythical rose-tinted future, the only ones that are likely to be able to afford it are corporations, governments and fat cats.

Bitcoin wasn't around in 1980 and has gone from zero to datacenter in a couple of years (let alone 40) due to the resources required to run the system and we are supposed to believe the tech available to the average Joe will be good enough in another 10 when it's struggling now?

Makes my blood boil!    

So invent a better decentralized system.  Until you do (or someone else does), this is the best we've got.  Might as well calm down and accept it (or abandon bitcoin) or you'll kill yourself over the stress of it all.  Complaining about the way it works isn't going to get it fixed any faster.

[cr1776]

I am not dismissing concerns about bandwidth or disk space.  I am merely pointing out that arguments that don't take into account exponential increases in capacity in both bandwidth and storage space with stable or decreasing costs are (a) purposefully avoiding reality, (b) purposefully trying to mislead people, OR (c) trolling.  

If you or anyone wishes to code the "distributed file system" and integrate it with Bitcoin Core and convince people it is a better solution so that a majority if people adopt it, please go ahead.  Is there a technical paper of how this would work in bitcoin and an analysis as to how it would provide the same security that Bitcoin does now?

I am sure that any well-tested code that the people who are complaining about the block chain size (and the like) are willing to commit to Bitcoin Core to decrease the sizes would be more than welcome.  

Danny is right, and that is just the average. 

xfinity runs at least 88 Mbps right now or 8.8 MBps  => 528MB/minute = >31GB/hour => 744GB/day.

AT&T Fiber (GigaPower) 300Mbps = about 2.5TB/day.

In 1980 one was lucky to get 300bps (or 180bps).  No one serious thinks this has peaked.

So now bandwidth is being dismissed by the same flawed arguments as the disk space?  

Completely ignoring data caps and low speed restrictions imposed by providers. Completely ignoring that only first world countries have these sorts of high speed infrastructures (the US is hardly the worst performer in the world). Completely ignoring that most people want to run more than just one application that sucks up all their bandwidth. Completely ignoring that while writing a technology cheque way into some mythical rose-tinted future, the only ones that are likely to be able to afford it are corporations, governments and fat cats.

Bitcoin wasn't around in 1980 and has gone from zero to datacenter in a couple of years (let alone 40) due to the resources required to run the system and we are supposed to believe the tech available to the average Joe will be good enough in another 10 when it's struggling now?

Makes my blood boil!    

[AmDD]

I think that in the future there wont be one blockchain downloaded for each user as it is today but more like one per household. A family will setup a computer and download the blockchain and keep it up to date while useing other wallets to point to that BC for verification and use. A family shares resources, there is only 1 fridge, 1 stove, 1 safe,  etc. Yes more can be had but typically only 1 per household. Same will happen with businesses and such.

The chain is growing pretty fast and maybe one day we will reach a point where its tough to download but technology is also fast moving. I remember using dialup to downlaod Photoshop years ago.... took 3 days, but it was worth the trouble. Bitcoin is the same, if you want to use it then you'll do whats needed.