Diff thread Aug 2 to Aug 16. Picks are yet to start. prize =0.00

[philipma1957]

If sufficient number of bitcoiners start running graphic cards in support of etc-eth (and they/we probably do this kind of thing already judging by some here), what may stop developers to release a "GPU only"-fork for bitcoin?
This is basically a sword of Damocles that they have over Chinese miner farms and pools.
People will switch their gear from etc-eth to btc if ASICs are ruled out, I think.
It probably would be the best, anyway.

I have become anti-asic.  This idea is pretty good.  BTC-GPU  


Here is my thought plain and simple.

Intel
AMD
Nvidia     as my suppliers of gear.   Vs  Bitmaintech and Avalon

1, 2, 3 year real warranties vs 90 day fuck you warranties.

Actual real world use of the gear for shit other then mining.

Lastly since the pc is mining how about a bonus if you run a node. Say 0.5% extra for running a node.

China needs a good dose of reality about BTC. The current setup is not good for the game.

I like the way you think. 

I have four s-9s. But frankly my pc gpu rigs mining eth and or etc are making more money .  They cost lest to build they use less power and they have long warranties

[Quickseller]

If sufficient number of bitcoiners start running graphic cards in support of etc-eth (and they/we probably do this kind of thing already judging by some here), what may stop developers to release a "GPU only"-fork for bitcoin?
This is basically a sword of Damocles that they have over Chinese miner farms and pools.
People will switch their gear from etc-eth to btc if ASICs are ruled out, I think.
It probably would be the best, anyway.

I don't think it is possible to prevent ASICs from ever being used to mine. LTC was suppose to be mined by not ASICs however after a while, companies invested in R&D necessary to manufacture ASICs because there would be enough demand because the value of LTC was high enough.

I think the same would probably happen if the mining algo were to change for Bitcoin.

[philipma1957]

If sufficient number of bitcoiners start running graphic cards in support of etc-eth (and they/we probably do this kind of thing already judging by some here), what may stop developers to release a "GPU only"-fork for bitcoin?
This is basically a sword of Damocles that they have over Chinese miner farms and pools.
People will switch their gear from etc-eth to btc if ASICs are ruled out, I think.
It probably would be the best, anyway.

I don't think it is possible to prevent ASICs from ever being used to mine. LTC was suppose to be mined by not ASICs however after a while, companies invested in R&D necessary to manufacture ASICs because there would be enough demand because the value of LTC was high enough.

I think the same would probably happen if the mining algo were to change for Bitcoin.

it would set the asic builders backwards for a long time.

If you added a dag file over 4gb it would force you to have 8gb gpus. That would mean costly development for asic builders.
Better yet if you made it that 2x 8gb cards in crossfire would be the next change after 1x 8gb gpu card was the first change as soon as the the new asic came out switch to the 2 x 8gb  algo  so   the entire time spent building an asic  to mine the 'new' btc would  have been wasted.
  I am pretty much ready for an attack against asic building companies.  I have a lot invested in s-9's  but frankly  if they were rendered useless for btc  I switch them over to another 256 coin. I got back a decent amount already from my s-9's

BTC  has a lot of real problems at this time.  I don't like the asic lock on the coin. As I see it harming expansion of BTC.

[edonkey]

My bitfinex account was reduced in ETC and in ETH
What does it mean?  So far I don't know  but if I ever get into it instead of looking at it I will pull the ETH.

Leave the ETC  and the BFX

This is why I hold everything on a Trezor. I only use exchanges as briefly as possible to buy and sell coin.

can you easily pay from that Trezor thingie? The description is kind of open to interpretation and/or opaque.
I also looked at Ledger Nano S. Anybody uses that one?

Yes, it's easy to pay from a Trezor. Basically you start the payment from their web app, or other supporting wallet software (like electrum), then you confirm it on the device. The Trezor itself does the signing so there's no exposure of your private keys.

One downside to the Trezor screen is small. It's getting a little tough to read as I get older. I've heard that the KeepKey (which is a Trezor clone) has a bigger screen. And Trezor is working on a 2.0 unit. Unclear what that will be.

I rarely send from the Trezor anyway. I use it as a kind of vault. Periodically I'll send spending money to my phone wallet from the Trezor. But I'm pretty much a hodler anyway.

I have no experience with the Ledger. Looks similar to the Trezor though.

[edonkey]

If sufficient number of bitcoiners start running graphic cards in support of etc-eth (and they/we probably do this kind of thing already judging by some here), what may stop developers to release a "GPU only"-fork for bitcoin?
This is basically a sword of Damocles that they have over Chinese miner farms and pools.
People will switch their gear from etc-eth to btc if ASICs are ruled out, I think.
It probably would be the best, anyway.

I don't think it is possible to prevent ASICs from ever being used to mine. LTC was suppose to be mined by not ASICs however after a while, companies invested in R&D necessary to manufacture ASICs because there would be enough demand because the value of LTC was high enough.

I think the same would probably happen if the mining algo were to change for Bitcoin.

it would set the asic builders backwards for a long time.

If you added a dag file over 4gb it would force you to have 8gb gpus. That would mean costly development for asic builders.
Better yet if you made it that 2x 8gb cards in crossfire would be the next change after 1x 8gb gpu card was the first change as soon as the the new asic came out switch to the 2 x 8gb  algo  so   the entire time spent building an asic  to mine the 'new' btc would  have been wasted.
  I am pretty much ready for an attack against asic building companies.  I have a lot invested in s-9's  but frankly  if they were rendered useless for btc  I switch them over to another 256 coin. I got back a decent amount already from my s-9's

BTC  has a lot of real problems at this time.  I don't like the asic lock on the coin. As I see it harming expansion of BTC.

As interesting and appealing as this sounds, changing Bitcoin's proof of work algorithm seems pretty unlikely. That change is far more contentious than the other contemplated changes, like block size expansion.

If the PoW were to change, ASIC companies and the miners that have invested in them would resist it. There would be two Bitcoins, like Eth/Etc today. The original SHA256 algorithm would be much more secure because they would have way more hash power. That would only change if an overwhelming number of people adopt the new algorithm.

If the new PoW algorithm caught on, then the ASIC manufacturers would move to support it. I don't believe it's possible to create an algorithm that cannot be implemented more efficiently in hardware. If there's enough financial incentive, ASICs designers will find a way.

Basically this would be a replay of SHA256 with the only effect of a reset for a few years. But in the end there would still be two Bitcoin chains, end-user confusion, merchant adoption would be hampered, and there would probably be less investment from VC's because the double chain mess would make Bitcoin investment even more risky. Bitcoin's first mover network effect advantage might even be lost to an alt.

I don't see this happening at all. There's too much at stake for the current Bitcoin movers and shakers to allow this.

Instead there will always be alts, like Eth/Etc, some of which will be profitable enough to draw miners away.

[Biodom]

I am also against asics now, obviously, and I do mine (in hosting now due to noise) with asics.
Simple economic truth-90 days 'warranty' made some sense when machine was profitable in 2-3 mo.
It makes absolutely no sense when machine is profitable in a year or so.
I am not even talking about NOT honoring warranty and have some strange features in warranty.
In addition, i see asics as unsustainable long term.
I would very much like an idea of bitcoin switching to GPU-BTC with long warranties, less noise, supported by premier hardware companies, etc.
I think that many would welcome it eventually.
As far as it being contentious-so be it, the time has come, in my opinion.
Let's see if there will be willing developers to do just that.

[philipma1957]

If sufficient number of bitcoiners start running graphic cards in support of etc-eth (and they/we probably do this kind of thing already judging by some here), what may stop developers to release a "GPU only"-fork for bitcoin?
This is basically a sword of Damocles that they have over Chinese miner farms and pools.
People will switch their gear from etc-eth to btc if ASICs are ruled out, I think.
It probably would be the best, anyway.

I don't think it is possible to prevent ASICs from ever being used to mine. LTC was suppose to be mined by not ASICs however after a while, companies invested in R&D necessary to manufacture ASICs because there would be enough demand because the value of LTC was high enough.

I think the same would probably happen if the mining algo were to change for Bitcoin.

it would set the asic builders backwards for a long time.

If you added a dag file over 4gb it would force you to have 8gb gpus. That would mean costly development for asic builders.
Better yet if you made it that 2x 8gb cards in crossfire would be the next change after 1x 8gb gpu card was the first change as soon as the the new asic came out switch to the 2 x 8gb  algo  so   the entire time spent building an asic  to mine the 'new' btc would  have been wasted.
  I am pretty much ready for an attack against asic building companies.  I have a lot invested in s-9's  but frankly  if they were rendered useless for btc  I switch them over to another 256 coin. I got back a decent amount already from my s-9's

BTC  has a lot of real problems at this time.  I don't like the asic lock on the coin. As I see it harming expansion of BTC.

As interesting and appealing as this sounds, changing Bitcoin's proof of work algorithm seems pretty unlikely. That change is far more contentious than the other contemplated changes, like block size expansion.

If the PoW were to change, ASIC companies and the miners that have invested in them would resist it. There would be two Bitcoins, like Eth/Etc today. The original SHA256 algorithm would be much more secure because they would have way more hash power. That would only change if an overwhelming number of people adopt the new algorithm.

If the new PoW algorithm caught on, then the ASIC manufacturers would move to support it. I don't believe it's possible to create an algorithm that cannot be implemented more efficiently in hardware. If there's enough financial incentive, ASICs designers will find a way.

Basically this would be a replay of SHA256 with the only effect of a reset for a few years. But in the end there would still be two Bitcoin chains, end-user confusion, merchant adoption would be hampered, and there would probably be less investment from VC's because the double chain mess would make Bitcoin investment even more risky. Bitcoin's first mover network effect advantage might even be lost to an alt.

I don't see this happening at all. There's too much at stake for the current Bitcoin movers and shakers to allow this.

Instead there will always be alts, like Eth/Etc, some of which will be profitable enough to draw miners away.

  I bolded what I believe will happen to BTC due to asic control in the hands of a few companies.

If I was a big money guy  I would prefer a gpu coin over an asic coin.  Unless Amd, Nividia or Intel were selling the asic gear.

Plain and simple the fail is not on BTC as much as it is on asic companies.  

I see a lot of green blood split over this.  As in fiat cash.


oh look here


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1580285.0

you think there is a link?

[vapourminer]

Yes, it's easy to pay from a Trezor. Basically you start the payment from their web app, or other supporting wallet software (like electrum), then you confirm it on the device. The Trezor itself does the signing so there's no exposure of your private keys.

One downside to the Trezor screen is small. It's getting a little tough to read as I get older. I've heard that the KeepKey (which is a Trezor clone) has a bigger screen. And Trezor is working on a 2.0 unit. Unclear what that will be.

I rarely send from the Trezor anyway. I use it as a kind of vault. Periodically I'll send spending money to my phone wallet from the Trezor. But I'm pretty much a hodler anyway.

I have no experience with the Ledger. Looks similar to the Trezor though.

same here. long term bulk in paperwallets (too lazy to xfer to trezor). then trezor for a decent amount (a few months worth say). then core and phone for day to day.

trezor is very easy though. probably get a second.

[Mikestang]

If there was enough value to be had, then it would only be a matter of time before someone figured a way around no-asic mining.  Where there is a will there is a way, especially if there's a bunch of money to be made.

Big peak has backed way off and is trending back down again.

[notlist3d]

Yes, it's easy to pay from a Trezor. Basically you start the payment from their web app, or other supporting wallet software (like electrum), then you confirm it on the device. The Trezor itself does the signing so there's no exposure of your private keys.

One downside to the Trezor screen is small. It's getting a little tough to read as I get older. I've heard that the KeepKey (which is a Trezor clone) has a bigger screen. And Trezor is working on a 2.0 unit. Unclear what that will be.

I rarely send from the Trezor anyway. I use it as a kind of vault. Periodically I'll send spending money to my phone wallet from the Trezor. But I'm pretty much a hodler anyway.

I have no experience with the Ledger. Looks similar to the Trezor though.

same here. long term bulk in paperwallets (too lazy to xfer to trezor). then trezor for a decent amount (a few months worth say). then core and phone for day to day.

trezor is very easy though. probably get a second.

Paperwallets will always remain king, due to being free and can get them anytime you need it.  But Trezor is a great wallet I tried a few and it has the biggest following without a doubt.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1298917

I love that it actually signs the transactions on the hardware wallet.  Keep's it where even the computer cannot sign transaction's.  And the lcd screen to randomize digit's so even if screen is being captured it does not reveal pin is awesome.  Great investment for those long term and you still have  the seed words so even if it breaks you can recover so kinda goes back to paper wallet there.    But many good hardware wallets out there.

Biggest thing is just don't keep on hot wallets like exchanges as they are such a big target for "bad guy's".   Were at 589 right now on coinbase I'm actually pretty happy with that considering Bitfinex.   Bitwisdom went down just a little:

Bitcoin Difficulty:    201,893,210,853
Estimated Next Difficulty:    213,860,627,514 (+5.93%)
Adjust time:    After 919 Blocks, About 6.0 days
Hashrate(?):    1,447,126,871 GH/s

[NeuroticFish]

It seems miners not much concerned about short-term Bitcoin price and continue hashing as usual. Bit weird as there must be a lot of S5 and older unprofitable hardware (I guess phil estimated about 500 ph) unless you pay nothing or like 1-2 cents from nearby power plant. Hard to believe last week hashrate drop included disconnecting all of the older and unprofitable equipment and the spike we see last few days is the new bitmain in house S9s (or privately sold to some big mining farm).

I'm not surprised the hash rate continues to climb as S9 type miners trickle out. If S9 type systems were available to the public tens of thousands would be sold. The last batch of 999 sold out in hours.  

Each S9 has the hash rate of at least 10 S5s.

Currently the S9 is profitable to power up even if you pay 20 cents per kWh.  If you have cheap electricity the profit margin is huge.  

It is quite possible the network hash rate will come close to doubling by the end of the year.   The limit is the availability of 14/16 nm miners.

I would expect the difficulty increase this period to be at least 5% and probably close to 10%.    

I think that the hash rate drop was related to the flooding in China. Maybe now the things came back to normal and they started producing again.

Phil, I've just read that Bitfinex is about to reopen (trading and withdrawals) sometime in the next 2 days.

[philipma1957]

It seems miners not much concerned about short-term Bitcoin price and continue hashing as usual. Bit weird as there must be a lot of S5 and older unprofitable hardware (I guess phil estimated about 500 ph) unless you pay nothing or like 1-2 cents from nearby power plant. Hard to believe last week hashrate drop included disconnecting all of the older and unprofitable equipment and the spike we see last few days is the new bitmain in house S9s (or privately sold to some big mining farm).

I'm not surprised the hash rate continues to climb as S9 type miners trickle out. If S9 type systems were available to the public tens of thousands would be sold. The last batch of 999 sold out in hours.  

Each S9 has the hash rate of at least 10 S5s.

Currently the S9 is profitable to power up even if you pay 20 cents per kWh.  If you have cheap electricity the profit margin is huge.  

It is quite possible the network hash rate will come close to doubling by the end of the year.   The limit is the availability of 14/16 nm miners.

I would expect the difficulty increase this period to be at least 5% and probably close to 10%.    

I think that the hash rate drop was related to the flooding in China. Maybe now the things came back to normal and they started producing again.

Phil, I've just read that Bitfinex is about to reopen (trading and withdrawals) sometime in the next 2 days.

Yeah and my losses may only be 250 out of 700.
The peak and the drop look like bitmaintech loaded all their hashnest with s-9 and are now selling off the old s-7 gear.
 If you have excess power capacity you could put the s-9 on line and keep the s-7 online for a bit.
I believe that bitmaintech could raise the hash rate far more then anyone thinks they can.
I think they have at least 300 ph off line.

But so much is hidden who really knows Ph for any group.

And the flooding may have put someone off line. 

[petahashminer]

02.08.2016 18:50   423360
10.08.2016 15:48   424578

1218   Blocks Diff Percentage : 7.43%    Next Diff: 216897575511

5.2 Days to go.

i think it will be between 6 - 10 %

[Mikestang]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Phil.  Bitcoin has kind of become AsicCoin, as the asic devs are running the show.  They control difficulty to an extent, and can wield vast amounts of hash power at a moment's notice.  I would wager with almost certainty that behind the scenes, all the big Chinese players are in it together.  Despite hashing against each other they have to realize that they are in the driver seat and can work together to "massage" the system to their benefit.  In order for bitcoin to become what it was meant to be I concur that we have to move away from asic dominance.

[vapourminer]

if there were more asic chip makers this would likely be a moot point.

but there are only a few

[philipma1957]

if there were more asic chip makers this would likely be a moot point.

but there are only a few

lots of gpu sellers  and lots of pc sellers.

I went 50-50   btc and eth

I am now 50-50     btc and eth/etc

I see my eth/etc gear

usa resellers are:
amazon
newegg
provantage
superbizz
NcixUS
Microcenter
frys
good old ebay

parts from
Intel
AMD
Nvidia
Corsair
Seasonic
Samsung
Western Digital
Evga ----- some shit has 10 year warranty

I can put it on a cc
I can use paypal
I can put it on 6 months 0% 0 payment on paypal.
My discover card makes all 1 year warranties 2 years.
my discover card pays for damaged gear for 90 days (i.e. burnt up shit)
My discover card price matches.

every problem above that I mention is due to asic mining.

oh nodes
well if you are running a pc to mine how hard is it to add a node.

this means one thing  asic companies are at risk of death via gpu mining. 

 So we are going to see an economic  war unfold between asic vs gpu.

I am threading very carefully and attempting to balance both.

Frankly I sell my ETH/ETC off  pretty fast since I do fear a collapse of it.  But I turn profit every month doing this.



It is not that I do not like btc

[notlist3d]

Coinbase is at 595 so we are climbing which is nice we got close to 600 and it seems a few sold and went down a few dollar's.  But pretty amazing to watch if you would have asked right after Bitfinex what was going to happen I would not have guessed it would stablize so well in a short period of time. I thought it was going to be a big upset luckily I did not go crazy selling at lower prices. 

Difficulty is not horrible but seeing such a good price on S7 + psu from bitmain scares me a little bit but no way to know effect yet.  We could see lot's of S9's fire up for them internally we really just don't know.  Here is current bitwisdom:

Bitcoin Difficulty:    201,893,210,853
Estimated Next Difficulty:    213,880,729,556 (+5.94%)
Adjust time:    After 756 Blocks, About 4.9 days
Hashrate(?):    1,448,201,037 GH/s

On a side note even if we do thread with no prize from here on out I hope we keep it going.  I really feel here is where I talk to others a lot about difficulty and a lot of bitcoin speculation, so hope it keep's going.  I think it's a worthwhile thread it is part of what got me into Ether with comparisons into it, and I have had so much fun with GPU's again.

[philipma1957]

well we dropped more now 5.63%  maybe with luck we go to 5%

[vapourminer]

well we dropped more now 5.63%  maybe with luck we go to 5%

hey maybe my favorite number, 5.5, will come up this time.

OH WAIT now that i mentioned it everyone will pick 5.5

seriously though some interesting theories on why hash rate has done what its done have been in these threads. hope they never stop. even with no prize they are fun threads.

[philipma1957]

We are under 5% 


https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty



Bitcoin Difficulty:   201,893,210,853

Estimated Next Difficulty:   211,595,784,384 (+4.81%)
Adjust time:   After 683 Blocks, About 4.6 days

Hashrate(?):   1,400,753,430 GH/s
Block Generation Time(?):   
1 block: 9.6 minutes
3 blocks: 28.9 minutes
6 blocks: 57.7 minutes
Updated:   9:50 (4.7 minutes ago)


Be funny if it drops to 2% or less