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Author Topic: And God said, “Let there be a split!” and there was a split.  (Read 932 times)
Meni Rosenfeld (OP)
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August 03, 2016, 12:07:53 AM
 #1

(Cross-post from my blog)

A year ago, I’ve written How I learned to stop worrying and love the fork, espousing my view that a split of Bitcoin into two networks is possible, and might even be good under the right circumstances and with proper preparations.

Half a year ago, I’ve followed up with I disapprove of Bitcoin splitting, but I’ll defend to the death its right to do it, which elaborated a bit and aimed to refute some misinformation.

I’ve been meaning to write another followup to address some questions that have been raised…

And then Ethereum Classic happened.

For those of you who’ve been living under a rock, a recap: Ethereum is an alternative cryptocurrency featuring Turing-Complete smart contracts. One such contract, theDAO, raised an investment of $150M. Unfortunately, Ethereum makes it easy to write buggy contracts, and theDAO had a serious bug that caused invested funds to be stolen. The Ethereum Foundation decided to roll back the theft, and dissenters who believe in decentralization refused to accept the rollback, leading the Ethereum network to split in two – the version promoted by the Ethereum Foundation, and another version which received the name “Ethereum Classic”.

Ethereum classic has been running for 2 weeks; some alt exchanges have enabled trading in it, and it now goes for a third of the price of the “official” Ethereum. This is well beyond the “momentary split that will immediately coalesce”, and deep into “short-term split” territory.

The story is still unfolding, but there are already multiple lessons to learn from it.

First, if anyone had any doubts that such a thing is possible – it’s possible. It’s happened.

You might be wondering how a split in Ethereum proves anything when the original debate was about Bitcoin. I firmly believe that Bitcoin is not just Bitcoin, and that any cryptocurrency or decentralized technology is within the realm of the general sense of the term “Bitcoin”. And Ethereum, specifically, is similar enough to Bitcoin in the senses that matter so that insights from it are directly applicable. There is, though, one important difference which I will soon address.

Now is as good a time as any to mention that I had predicted in advance that Ethereum would split – or rather, that it could. At a talk I gave at the virtual OnChain Scaling conference on June 27 (Video, Script), back when the rollback was uncertain speculation, I mentioned that if a rollback would indeed take place, it could possibly lead to disagreement and a split of the network, into a part which believes in rollbacks and one which does not. Basically, exactly what’s happening right now.

In that talk I’ve also explicitly defined a classification of splits according to their length, which I will repeat here as it was absent from previous posts:

In a short-term split, one of the networks soon realizes that it has virtually no support at all. Everyone is using the other currency. Due to the network effect, even those who prefer the protocol of Bitcoin A will be unable to use it. After a few days or a few weeks, even the supporters of Bitcoin A will abandon it, and reluctantly start using Bitcoin B. Bitcoin A will die, and Bitcoin B – the network which has an economic majority – will emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a medium-term split, both networks have significant support and they coexist for a while. But after several months or years, it becomes apparent that the protocol of Bitcoin A is problematic. It doesn’t function as well as the network of Bitcoin B, and over time, people switch from one to the other. Here, too, Bitcoin B will ultimately emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a long-term split, neither of the networks is clearly superior. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each has its supporters and preferred use cases. This will result in two different currencies, that will coexist indefinitely, which were both spawned from the same original coin.

With only two weeks on its belt, I don’t yet consider the Ethereum split a medium-term one. So it has not yet been proven conclusively that medium-term and long-term splits are possible, but it certainly starts to seem more likely.

Moving on, one important aspect of my posts on the matter, which I’ve written before in comments but for emphasis I will write in the post in bold, is that for the most part, my analysis is not descriptive, it is normative. It doesn’t aspire to say what will happen, but what should happen. I am advocating the view that the right to split is bigger than the details of any particular argument we could be splitting over. The right to split is bigger than the question of 1MB vs. 20MB, it’s even bigger than the question of allowing rollbacks vs. not allowing rollbacks. Personally I’m with the “no rollbacks” side (if I wanted rollbacks, I’d stick with the banks), but who cares what I think? As long as there are people who believe in rollbacks and people who do not, they have a sacred right to split off. I bear no ill will (well, not a lot) towards those who choose a different side.

I’ve been criticized with the argument that a split will never happen, because the majority side will >50% attack the minority and kill it. Sure, it could happen, and I can’t give any guarantees that it won’t happen. But why should it happen? Miners on the majority side might think they are morally justified in attacking the minority. I am here to say that, no, the minority has a right to coexist, and you are no more morally justified to attack it than banks are justified in attacking Bitcoin in general. They might also think they are financially incentivized to attack the minority, to keep their own favorite chain stronger. I am here to say that, no, they’d be cutting down the branch on which they’re sitting – by condoning attacks on minority splits, they are promoting a version of Bitcoin (again, “Bitcoin” is not just Bitcoin) were splitting is frowned upon, a version with tyranny of the majority and without the potential to evolve – a version of Bitcoin which is weaker overall.

In other words – I am afraid that split attempts will fail, and that is exactly why I try to convince people that splits are ok and they shouldn’t fight against them – to prevent the splits from failing!

Well, it turns out I was wrong. There’s no need for people like me who tell everyone that splitting is ok. If a split needs to happen, it will just happen. No ado, no fuss, no worries, and not much planning either – people cared deeply enough that they just choose to ignore the reigning authority’s version of the code, and viola, a split is born. (I’m only 40% serious here – despite everything, I still think posts like this are important.)

It’s interesting to note – but not very surprising to me, though – that apparently, there haven’t been attempts to commit a hashrate attack against Ethereum Classic.

Now, mining can be problematic even if the miners are not malicious but mere-profit seekers. If a network like Bitcoin were to split, with the two sides using the same hash function (and hence, the same hardware), then assuming pure profit-seeking miners, the ecosystem would suffer from a severe oscillation problem. What would happen is this – at any point in time, one network will happen to have a higher price/difficulty ratio. All miners will mine on this network, and none on the other network. After a week, the difficulty in the first network will retarget and double, making it less profitable. Then everyone will switch to the other network; after a week, everyone will switch back, and so on. This means that for each network, one week out of two, there will be no blocks at all, making transaction confirmation impossible. The retarget mechanism isn’t effective at balancing this, because difficulty retargeting requires blocks, and there will be no blocks in nobody mines, which is the case if the difficulty is too high and there is an immediate, better alternatives.

In reality not literally everyone will switch so readily, but many will, leading to big fluctuations in hashrate and processing rate for each of the networks. My suggestions for combating this were choosing a different hash function when doing a split, and/or improving Bitcoin’s retarget mechanism.

Ethereum itself already has an (ostensibly) improved retarget mechanism, and as far as I can tell retargets every block. Combined with faster block times, this should create a much more immediate response to hashrate changes, leading to a stable equilibrium rather than wild oscillations. By the way, this also is not a problem in pure PoS chains, which Ethereum plans to become.

This technical detail, in my opinion, is a key part of what makes the Ethereum split viable. In Bitcoin it would have been much more difficult, and without proper preparations could lead to dire consequences.

Speaking of preparations, my earlier posts advocated the position that some must be made for a split to be executed harmlessly, and it doesn’t seem many were made for Ethereum classic. It seems there have been indeed issues of ETC coins being misappropriated by some exchanges, due to either malice or incompetence. But I’ve yet to hear about trouble with locally held coins. So it seems the split is faring well, its relative haste notwithstanding. Perhaps some aspects of Ethereum’s inner workings (of which many are unknown to me), like the retarget method mentioned above, helped facilitate this. And perhaps such a hasty split is perilous after all, and we have simply not yet seen the extent of the troubles it could cause.

The only question that remains is – are splits good? It’s still too early to tell. I believe that given the rift between people upset over losing $150M, and people who actually believe in decentralization, it’s good that the split happened. It’s good that everyone got to pick sides and enjoy the chain he believes in. It’s good that splits have proven to be viable, at least short-term. But again, we do not yet know what kind of ripples will propagate from this fracture, and it could end up being too divisive and harmful.

But even if the split proves detrimental to Ethereum, I still believe the split is good for the cryptocurrency ecosystem in general. There’s so much we can learn from it, and we will thrive on this knowledge.

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August 03, 2016, 12:37:57 AM
 #2

God
There is no God Meni.  You jews always go in for that crap.

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What's going on - Slavetards?!!!
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August 03, 2016, 01:30:22 AM
 #3

...
The only question that remains is – are splits good? It’s still too early to tell. ... But again, we do not yet know what kind of ripples will propagate from this fracture, and it could end up being too divisive and harmful.
...

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Ultimately, this is a crypto war that mandates that only one chain survives.
The longer it takes to get to a single chain, the higher chance both chains are destroyed.

Nothing good will come from this except the data for future use.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
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August 03, 2016, 02:05:11 AM
 #4

In a short-term split, one of the networks soon realizes that it has virtually no support at all. Everyone is using the other currency. Due to the network effect, even those who prefer the protocol of Bitcoin A will be unable to use it. After a few days or a few weeks, even the supporters of Bitcoin A will abandon it, and reluctantly start using Bitcoin B. Bitcoin A will die, and Bitcoin B – the network which has an economic majority – will emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a medium-term split, both networks have significant support and they coexist for a while. But after several months or years, it becomes apparent that the protocol of Bitcoin A is problematic. It doesn’t function as well as the network of Bitcoin B, and over time, people switch from one to the other. Here, too, Bitcoin B will ultimately emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a long-term split, neither of the networks is clearly superior. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each has its supporters and preferred use cases. This will result in two different currencies, that will coexist indefinitely, which were both spawned from the same original coin.

to highlight this.

miners will not split bitcoin unless there was a high consensus (nodes AND hashpower) to ensure their block attempts wont automatically get orphaned by other pools or users. also they would need to ensure their "fiat exit gateway" (exchange) also is ready to accept the version..

this means that bitcoin will have a majority choosing the split before the split even happens.. this automatically makes it a short term split before it even happens.
from reading details. miners will look at the network and see how many nodes are using the code. the miners(pools) will then create blocks that are flagged to highlight the miners desires to go with a split..(at 75%)
this is then a big neon glowing and flashing sign that more users should upgrade their nodes and merchants to make a decision.

again this is all happening before the split has even happened.
then at around 90% plus they will split.

this would leave the minority split with only 10% hashrate which (using some real world stats) actually results in the minority split only making a block once every couple hours, instead of 10 minutes.(its not a block every 100minutes either, its actually longer)

meaning not only will the minority chain be one block each 2 hours =1008 hours (42 days) before the difficulty adjusts
but every 2 hours only ~2500tx are added to a minority block but with 2 hours of users transactions filling up the mempool.. causing a massive fee war of 40k tx's trying to be next in line for space of 2500, then next 2 hours 75,000 tx fighting for a space of 2500.. 2 hours later 112,500tx trying to fight for a space of 2500
meaning in just 6 hours the fee war will disincentive people from using the minority split. both due to delays, headachs of rebroadcasting and higher fees

ethereum is different because it has no real world use now the DAO cannot be trusted.. you cant buy real world goods with it. so most people dont use ethereum to care about the logistics and dont see the issues in the same way bitcoin would

you cannot compare ethers split with bitcoins possible split.. its like comparing a butterfly flapping its wings that effects nothing in the real world and left to flutter about for as long as it wants to live.. and a tornado that can see things moving very fast and make people make fast decisions that will affect them

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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August 03, 2016, 02:39:44 AM
Last edit: August 03, 2016, 02:52:51 AM by AgentofCoin
 #5

In a short-term split, one of the networks soon realizes that it has virtually no support at all. Everyone is using the other currency. Due to the network effect, even those who prefer the protocol of Bitcoin A will be unable to use it. After a few days or a few weeks, even the supporters of Bitcoin A will abandon it, and reluctantly start using Bitcoin B. Bitcoin A will die, and Bitcoin B – the network which has an economic majority – will emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a medium-term split, both networks have significant support and they coexist for a while. But after several months or years, it becomes apparent that the protocol of Bitcoin A is problematic. It doesn’t function as well as the network of Bitcoin B, and over time, people switch from one to the other. Here, too, Bitcoin B will ultimately emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a long-term split, neither of the networks is clearly superior. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each has its supporters and preferred use cases. This will result in two different currencies, that will coexist indefinitely, which were both spawned from the same original coin.

to highlight this.

miners will not split bitcoin unless there was a high consensus (nodes AND hashpower) to ensure their block attempts wont automatically get orphaned by other pools or users. also they would need to ensure their "fiat exit gateway" (exchange) also is ready to accept the version..

this means that bitcoin will have a majority choosing the split before the split even happens.. this automatically makes it a short term split before it even happens.
from reading details. miners will look at the network and see how many nodes are using the code. the miners(pools) will then create blocks that are flagged to highlight the miners desires to go with a split..(at 75%)
this is then a big neon glowing and flashing sign that more users should upgrade their nodes and merchants to make a decision.

again this is all happening before the split has even happened.
then at around 90% plus they will split.

this would leave the minority split with only 10% hashrate which (using some real world stats) actually results in the minority split only making a block once every couple hours, instead of 10 minutes.(its not a block every 100minutes either, its actually longer)

meaning not only will the minority chain be one block each 2 hours =1008 hours (42 days) before the difficulty adjusts
but every 2 hours only ~2500tx are added to a minority block but with 2 hours of users transactions filling up the mempool.. causing a massive fee war of 40k tx's trying to be next in line for space of 2500, then next 2 hours 75,000 tx fighting for a space of 2500.. 2 hours later 112,500tx trying to fight for a space of 2500
meaning in just 6 hours the fee war will disincentive people from using the minority split. both due to delays, headachs of rebroadcasting and higher fees
...

Why wouldn't the "minority", in preparation, prepare and circulate software
for an immediate hardfork and transfer to a lower difficulty on the minority chain?
So create a 3rd chain that can survive and attempt to compete against the 2nd chain.
(Let the 1st chain die immediately.)

War is war and if the minority wants to survive, they will do all that they can to do so.
The Ethereum debacle has proven that these topics and situations are more serious
than the average user or public knows or cares to know. Assumptions need to be put to bed.

For our community to take actions, such as Hardforks, we need to know or have a high
percentage of backing (Maybe more than 95%?). Otherwise we are just hurting ourselves
and the bitcoin community and economy. ETH Classic only needed 10% of the hashrate to,
within a week, siphon away $230,000,000 USD from their market cap. (About 1/4th).)

Chain splits (like ETH) are like an evil twin that appears over night. Ignore them at your peril.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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August 03, 2016, 02:57:24 AM
 #6

Just side track a bit:

The reason for Ethereum hard fork, and the subsequent split was to reverse the losses of DAO hack.
Now, with over USD$60 million lost in Bitfinex hack, maybe this give us a "valid reason" to hard fork and reverse the losses? Tongue
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August 03, 2016, 03:01:08 AM
 #7

In a short-term split, one of the networks soon realizes that it has virtually no support at all. Everyone is using the other currency. Due to the network effect, even those who prefer the protocol of Bitcoin A will be unable to use it. After a few days or a few weeks, even the supporters of Bitcoin A will abandon it, and reluctantly start using Bitcoin B. Bitcoin A will die, and Bitcoin B – the network which has an economic majority – will emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a medium-term split, both networks have significant support and they coexist for a while. But after several months or years, it becomes apparent that the protocol of Bitcoin A is problematic. It doesn’t function as well as the network of Bitcoin B, and over time, people switch from one to the other. Here, too, Bitcoin B will ultimately emerge as the one true Bitcoin.

In a long-term split, neither of the networks is clearly superior. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and each has its supporters and preferred use cases. This will result in two different currencies, that will coexist indefinitely, which were both spawned from the same original coin.

to highlight this.

miners will not split bitcoin unless there was a high consensus (nodes AND hashpower) to ensure their block attempts wont automatically get orphaned by other pools or users. also they would need to ensure their "fiat exit gateway" (exchange) also is ready to accept the version..

this means that bitcoin will have a majority choosing the split before the split even happens.. this automatically makes it a short term split before it even happens.
from reading details. miners will look at the network and see how many nodes are using the code. the miners(pools) will then create blocks that are flagged to highlight the miners desires to go with a split..(at 75%)
this is then a big neon glowing and flashing sign that more users should upgrade their nodes and merchants to make a decision.

again this is all happening before the split has even happened.
then at around 90% plus they will split.

this would leave the minority split with only 10% hashrate which (using some real world stats) actually results in the minority split only making a block once every couple hours, instead of 10 minutes.(its not a block every 100minutes either, its actually longer)

meaning not only will the minority chain be one block each 2 hours =1008 hours (42 days) before the difficulty adjusts
but every 2 hours only ~2500tx are added to a minority block but with 2 hours of users transactions filling up the mempool.. causing a massive fee war of 40k tx's trying to be next in line for space of 2500, then next 2 hours 75,000 tx fighting for a space of 2500.. 2 hours later 112,500tx trying to fight for a space of 2500
meaning in just 6 hours the fee war will disincentive people from using the minority split. both due to delays, headachs of rebroadcasting and higher fees
...

Why wouldn't the "minority", in preparation, prepare and circulate software
for an immediate hardfork and transfer to a lower difficulty on the minority chain?
So create a 3rd chain that can survive and attempt to compete against the 2nd chain.
(Let the 1st chain die immediately.)

War is war and if the minority wants to survive, they will do all that they can to do so.
The Ethereum debacle has proven that these topics and situations are more serious
than the average user or public knows or cares to know. Assumptions need to be put to bed.

For our community to take actions, such as Hardforks, we need to know or have a high
percentage of backing (Maybe more than 95%?). Otherwise we are just hurting ourselves
and the bitcoin community and economy. ETH Classic only needed 10% of the hashrate to,
within a week, siphon away $230,000,000.00 USD from their market cap. (About 1/4th).)

Chain splits are like evil twins that appear over night. Ignore them at your peril.

Chains splits are terrible. Whenever a hardfork is required, everyone should switch chains, none of this "ETH and ETC" crap. It ups the value of the new chain (when you're lucky) while decreasing the value of the old chain, until it most likely finds a value of equilibrium at some point. That is, of course, assuming that you got that far in the first place. To my knowledge, a majority of the time a chain split results in the currency failing due to either sell-offs or other similar things, and no-one cares about the second chain (or the first) at some point. Ethereum got lucky, and now we have a great investment tool until the two chains equal each other in value and one of the chains gets absorbed.
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August 03, 2016, 03:04:39 AM
 #8

Just side track a bit:

The reason for Ethereum hard fork, and the subsequent split was to reverse the losses of DAO hack.
Now, with over USD$60 million lost in Bitfinex hack, maybe this give us a "valid reason" to hard fork and reverse the losses? Tongue

this is bitcoin not a crappy altcoin with a centralized dev who does what he wants.

before there was a bigger hack called Mt.Gox that 450 million dollars worth of bitcoin (by that time's price) was stollen it was a bout 850,000BTC and no fork happened.

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AgentofCoin
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August 03, 2016, 03:56:17 AM
 #9


Why wouldn't the "minority", in preparation, prepare and circulate software
for an immediate hardfork and transfer to a lower difficulty on the minority chain?
So create a 3rd chain that can survive and attempt to compete against the 2nd chain.
(Let the 1st chain die immediately.)

War is war and if the minority wants to survive, they will do all that they can to do so.
The Ethereum debacle has proven that these topics and situations are more serious
than the average user or public knows or cares to know. Assumptions need to be put to bed.

For our community to take actions, such as Hardforks, we need to know or have a high
percentage of backing (Maybe more than 95%?). Otherwise we are just hurting ourselves
and the bitcoin community and economy. ETH Classic only needed 10% of the hashrate to,
within a week, siphon away $230,000,000.00 USD from their market cap. (About 1/4th).)

Chain splits are like evil twins that appear over night. Ignore them at your peril.

...To my knowledge, a majority of the time a chain split results in the currency failing due to either sell-offs or other similar things, and no-one cares about the second chain (or the first) at some point. Ethereum got lucky, and now we have a great investment tool until the two chains equal each other in value and one of the chains gets absorbed.

To my knowledge, when a purposeful fork occurs that creates two chains, the "old chain" almost always
dies immediately because the "old chain" is being "replaced by a social contract conforming upgrade".
In the Ethereum situation, there was no hardfork to "upgrade & replace", it was a hardfork to "return"
the "stolen" ETH (inside TheDAO) by breaking Ethereum's social contract and violate the intention and
purpose of a blockchain system. Most people want a chain with "upgrades", not "downgrades". Due to this,
two chains have a purpose and can exist at the same time.

Also, it may be true that the two chains value may come to parity, but one of the two chains does not
have to be absorbed into the other. Most likely event is that one will dump with such a large amount that
one side is destroyed with hundreds of bagholders. Those funds from the dump may go into the surviving
chain, or it may not, since the project as a whole is damaged for investments.

The idea that one of the two chains can be absorbed into the other is very not likely.
They are seperate now and users on the losing chain will not be absorbed. They are lost.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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August 03, 2016, 04:38:13 AM
 #10

War is war and if the minority wants to survive, they will do all that they can to do so.

Franky1 doesn't seem to understand the tenacity of a certain group of Bitcoiners. If contentious changes are made, we can be certain that a fork will result in two surviving chains, regardless of what "the majority" claims to want. It doesn't matter what the miners, exchanges, or businesses choose to do. It only depends on the users. Obstacles (such as difficulty) are simply speed bumps and they will be overcome along the way.

To put it simply: Where there is demand, there will be supply.

Satoshi gave us a way to escape the control of those that would choose for us. We aren't going to give that up, under any circumstances.

If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.
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August 03, 2016, 04:41:54 AM
 #11

...
Well, it turns out I was wrong. There’s no need for people like me who tell everyone that splitting is ok. If a split needs to happen, it will just happen. No ado, no fuss, no worries, and not much planning either – people cared deeply enough that they just choose to ignore the reigning authority’s version of the code, and viola, a split is born. (I’m only 40% serious here – despite everything, I still think posts like this are important.)
...

Thanks for the very thought provoking post Meni.

It may well be the most truly revolutionary component of satoshi's invention: While the system is operationally managed by machine law, there are always economic forces interacting with it and each other, and in a sense, the psychology of the market rules the machines. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it innately refuses to go back in, constantly reinventing itself to resist capture by those that would harness it for personal gain.

Forking away for ideological reasons is always an inherent right, but it will probably fail unless there is a significant psychological and economic power that is served by or attracted to it. Matters of proportional value between forks will be arbitrated on the exchanges. 

I'm of the opinion that hard forks are a sort of honest referendum on economic changes to the system. And in contrast, soft forks that change economic rules (segwit)... are subverting that potential referendum, avoiding it, dragging powerless individual users along... without active consent. However, if the number of those who disagree with the soft fork is strong enough... they might be capable of successfully forking off too.

A hard fork makes forking off much easier for the party in disagreement, and this isn't a bad thing, it's maximizing economic choices in the marketplace. This mimics the system of mutation and adaptation at work in the natural world, and is much more likely to survive in the long term vs monolithic and ideologically centralized development decision structures.
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August 03, 2016, 07:20:58 AM
 #12

...
The only question that remains is – are splits good? It’s still too early to tell. ... But again, we do not yet know what kind of ripples will propagate from this fracture, and it could end up being too divisive and harmful.
...

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Ultimately, this is a crypto war that mandates that only one chain survives.
The longer it takes to get to a single chain, the higher chance both chains are destroyed.

Nothing good will come from this except the data for future use.
If you take a look at http://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/, you'll see that there isn't just one chain, there are 737 chains (that we know of).

Ethereum Official and Ethereum Classic are now, conceptually, no less different than Bitcoin and Litecoin - the fact they have a shared history is irrelevant. Each can take its own path and succeed independently.


this would leave the minority split with only 10% hashrate which (using some real world stats) actually results in the minority split only making a block once every couple hours, instead of 10 minutes.(its not a block every 100minutes either, its actually longer)

meaning not only will the minority chain be one block each 2 hours =1008 hours (42 days) before the difficulty adjusts
but every 2 hours only ~2500tx are added to a minority block but with 2 hours of users transactions filling up the mempool.. causing a massive fee war of 40k tx's trying to be next in line for space of 2500, then next 2 hours 75,000 tx fighting for a space of 2500.. 2 hours later 112,500tx trying to fight for a space of 2500
meaning in just 6 hours the fee war will disincentive people from using the minority split. both due to delays, headachs of rebroadcasting and higher fees
1. It's a temporary setback - both in terms of time to confirm and transaction capacity.
2. You're assuming Bitcoin's protocol will remain unchanged. If a split is made, at least the hash function should be changed, and the difficulty reset, rendering this moot.
3. As I've said multiple times, you need to actually prepare for the split to prevent such problems from occurring, not just do it as a knee-jerk reaction. Ethereum Classic got it wrong, but got lucky because Ethereum is already better equipped to handle splits.


Chains splits are terrible. Whenever a hardfork is required, everyone should switch chains, none of this "ETH and ETC" crap. It ups the value of the new chain (when you're lucky) while decreasing the value of the old chain, until it most likely finds a value of equilibrium at some point. That is, of course, assuming that you got that far in the first place. To my knowledge, a majority of the time a chain split results in the currency failing due to either sell-offs or other similar things, and no-one cares about the second chain (or the first) at some point. Ethereum got lucky, and now we have a great investment tool until the two chains equal each other in value and one of the chains gets absorbed.
I'm not sure if you've read my earlier posts but I think you're missing the point. If it is universally agreed that a hard fork is required than of course everyone should switch. A split is for when people can't agree - one side says we need 1MB blocks and the other says 20MB, one said says rollbacks are required and the other says rollbacks are forbidden. If the disagreement is strong enough, there really is no other option than to split.

So far there has only been one case of a major cryptocurrency splitting - Ethereum vs. Ethereum classic. So far it's going well. Experience from split attempts of junk currencies tells us nothing.


Just side track a bit:

The reason for Ethereum hard fork, and the subsequent split was to reverse the losses of DAO hack.
Now, with over USD$60 million lost in Bitfinex hack, maybe this give us a "valid reason" to hard fork and reverse the losses? Tongue
1. Bitcoin is much more decentralized than Ethereum
2. theDAO lost about 10% of the market cap, Bitfinex lost 0.5%.

Because of this, nobody in their right mind would agree to such a rollback.

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August 03, 2016, 07:45:00 AM
 #13

I think the biggest mistake that happened with the ethereum fork was that the exchanges started trading the old chain. This was major fuel for the anti fork people and they even performed some tricks in mining to make it more profitable per hash to mine etc.

Ethereum was obviously not prepared for the fork and were pushed by the deadline of the hackers fund being released.

Bitcoin doesn't have such a deadline luckily, but the more I see how this turns out, the more I move from a forking point of view to a don't fork and fix the problems on the side point of view. If something like this happens to bitcoin, there will be big clouds hanging above it.

Exchanges play just as big of a role as the miners in forks, this has been shown. I think it should be clear now that miners are not the almighty decision makers and that voting by mining is not democracy.

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August 03, 2016, 08:04:48 AM
Last edit: August 03, 2016, 08:15:20 AM by AgentofCoin
 #14

...
The only question that remains is – are splits good? It’s still too early to tell. ... But again, we do not yet know what kind of ripples will propagate from this fracture, and it could end up being too divisive and harmful.
...

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Ultimately, this is a crypto war that mandates that only one chain survives.
The longer it takes to get to a single chain, the higher chance both chains are destroyed.

Nothing good will come from this except the data for future use.
If you take a look at http://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/, you'll see that there isn't just one chain, there are 737 chains (that we know of).

Ethereum Official and Ethereum Classic are now, conceptually, no less different than Bitcoin and Litecoin - the fact they have a shared history is irrelevant. Each can take its own path and succeed independently.
...

I was not referring to all cryptocurrency chains, I was talking about ETH/ETC split chain.

No one would dispute that altcoins have origins from other coins, but I think it is incorrect to
say that Litecoin and Bitcoin are a split chain, comparable to this Ethereum situation.
Litecoin started their own genesis block and mining, separate from Bitcoin (though the code is a fork).
Altcoins do not normally attack other altcoin chains because most do not take profits from the others,
but ETC (or ETH if ETC takes over somehow) is a parasitic offshoot split from the other, that is still alive.

Of course, each ETH/ETC chain can take its own path and succeed independently, but that assumes there
are not outside or inside parties who are currently at war, attempting to overtake or destroy the other chain.

Can you provide me any names of two coins that resulted from the same chain, but hardforked
into two, where both coins are profitable and currently still in existence today?

As a side note: I have heard a rumor that Bitfinex was hacked for adding ETC for trading.
I don't know if that is true and time will tell, but if true, that is evidence that there is a war from this and
users and money are being hurt. And technically Bitcoin has been hurt by ETH/ETC, if the Bitfinex rumor is true.
If parasitic split chains continue, IMO the war will continue and gets worse as time goes on.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
Request a signed message if you are associating with anyone claiming to be me.
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August 03, 2016, 08:21:20 AM
 #15

I was not referring to all cryptocurrency chains, I was talking about ETH/ETC split chain.

No one would dispute that altcoins have origins from other coins, but I think it is incorrect to
say that Litecoin and Bitcoin are a split chain, comparable to this Ethereum situation.
Litecoin started their own genesis block and mining, separate from Bitcoin (though the code is a fork).
What I was saying is that it doesn't matter. ETH vs. ETC is the same as BTC vs. LTC (and the same as vs. all the other hundreds of alts). It doesn't matter that the former was split from the same chain and the latter does not. ETH and ETC will compete the same way BTC and LTC do. Well, not exactly the same but close enough.

Altcoins do not normally attack other altcoin chains because most do not take profits from the others,
Of course they do, altcoins compete and if people switch from one alt to another, the market cap of the former will decrease. Exactly the same as people switching from ETH to ETC and reducing its market cap.

Of course, each ETH/ETC chain can take its own path and succeed independently, but that assumes there
are not outside or inside parties who are currently at war, attempting to overtake or destroy the other chain.
Yes, and I am arguing that there is no sensible reason for them to be at war. They should simply compete, and may the best coin win.

Can you provide me any names of two coins that resulted from the same chain, but hardforked
into two, where both coins are profitable and currently still in existence today?
Can you provide me the name of a *significant* coin that underwent a contentious hard fork, that led some users to attempt to stick with a less popular version?

As I said, this has never happened before. ETH/ETC is the first time this has happened. So of course I can't give examples of a successful split, because I can't give examples of a split attempt at all (aside from some irrelevant junk coins). That's one reason I wrote the post, it's a precedent we can try to learn from. One year from now, we will be able to say either "see, ETH/ETC split and they both exist today" or "see, ETH/ETC tried to split and one of them died off".

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August 03, 2016, 08:31:39 AM
 #16

Interesting post !
I have one question though, what will become of Ethereum foundation if Ethereum classic becomes the new standard ? Will they claim it as its own, or will a new foundation have to be formed ?



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August 03, 2016, 09:39:50 AM
 #17

Interesting post !
I have one question though, what will become of Ethereum foundation if Ethereum classic becomes the new standard ? Will they claim it as its own, or will a new foundation have to be formed ?

This post is not really about ethereum, but lets see:

The ethereum foundation has said they support ethereum hard fork. They don't recognize ethereum classic as the real ethereum and therefore it will not be the new standard in regards of the orignial ethereum idea.

All the connections, infrastructure and development will be related to ethereum hard fork, no matter what the exchange rate and mining rate will say about ethereum classic. Therefore, I think ethereum classic will only leach from the total market cap of ethereum and will act as a high volume high voliatlity speculation tool. Don't expect them to deliver what ethereum promises, they don't have the contacts and the funding (maybe they have funds after the pumps though).
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