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Author Topic: The Truth About The Fork - Alex Van de Sande  (Read 2420 times)
Minecache (OP)
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August 03, 2016, 04:52:26 PM
 #1

Fantastic article by Alex Van de Sande dispelling all the FUD and lies currently being propagated by the ETC criminal coin tards.

https://medium.com/@avsa/the-truth-about-the-fork-fd040c7ca955#.ho7lo8uxv

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August 03, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
 #2

Criminal Coin Tards? Man aren't you a friendly one

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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August 03, 2016, 05:11:50 PM
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Criminal Coin Tards? Man aren't you a friendly one

Minecache is the worst ETH bailout fork apologist there is. Don't mind him
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August 03, 2016, 05:20:24 PM
 #4

So you didn't bother to read the article? Thought not.

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August 03, 2016, 05:46:01 PM
 #5

"Hey guys! We certainly didn't run a bail out to recoup losses for ourselves and our friends at the cost of investors! It was for the greater good!"

-signed, the Bail out team
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August 03, 2016, 05:49:14 PM
 #6

Meanwhile...

https://twitter.com/barrysilbert/status/760893606345510912

EDIT: Btw, Barry Silbert is just another "ETC criminal coin tard".

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August 03, 2016, 05:55:17 PM
 #7

So you didn't bother to read the article? Thought not.

i read it; that's actually a well constructed article; potentially even inspiring.
but that does not justify your hostility & name calling;
if you don't approve of the method of people fudding eth, why have you dropped to the same level?
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August 03, 2016, 06:02:54 PM
 #8

Fantastic article by Alex Van de Sande dispelling all the FUD and lies currently being propagated by the ETC criminal coin tards.

https://medium.com/@avsa/the-truth-about-the-fork-fd040c7ca955#.ho7lo8uxv

The guy gets it:

Quote
At the end of the day, what good is to be able to build a contract that will work “exactly as promised” if what it actually does is not what anyone expected? What’s the value of a technology that is intended to build “smart contracts” if not even the top experts in the field can make sure they are either smart or contracts?

Right.  He finally realizes the idiocy of the whole ethereum thing.  Turing complete, wasn't that the idea ?
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August 03, 2016, 06:28:28 PM
 #9

'The biggest mistake in the DAO wasn’t bad code but launching when the platform was still too young and the tools still immature. In hidsight it’s easy to point that many things could have been done to limit the size or scope of the project, but the truth is that nobody expected the DAO to become as big as fast as it became. The DAO was Ethereum’s first viral sensation.'

I disagree. It was certainly bad code. Despite how minute this may seem, given more testing I feel it would have emerged eventually, even in related projects (like it did). The bad code was a result of the DAO becoming a 'viral sensation". Seems like the devs got caught up in there own hype, and rushed a 'young' and 'immature' product to market.
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August 03, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
 #10

Alex raises the most important point, which I already pointed out:

"At the end of the day, what good is to be able to build a contract that will work “exactly as promised” if what it actually does is not what anyone expected? What’s the value of a technology that is intended to build “smart contracts” if not even the top experts in the field can make sure they are either smart or contracts? "

Does he measure the extend of the valid point he raises here ?   Because if code is (like always in complex situations) not behaving as everyone expected, how do we handle this then, otherwise than writing a paper contract ?  What good was the whole ethereum/smart contract affair ?

Or is the claim that this was the LAST bug, and all other contracts are going to be without bugs ?  Or is the claim that, in the end, one will fork over every dispute of intend ?

The foundation didn't provide a solution the community was asking for.  The foundation PROPOSED and the community "voted".  That's not the same.  A big part of the community (the hyping crowd of the DAO and the ETH enthusiasts) was whining about lost money, because that's what people do when confronted with harsh reality.  At no point, the ethereum foundation should have proposed to BREAK THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE of their whole system.
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August 03, 2016, 06:39:27 PM
 #11

I disagree. It was certainly bad code. Despite how minute this may seem, given more testing I feel it would have emerged eventually, even in related projects (like it did).

There is no systematic way to verify Turing complete code.  In as much as you can verify it, you limit yourself to a subset of the language that is not Turing complete.  Moreover, one should verify the byte code, and not the source code, because the VM runs on byte code and one is never totally sure about the compiler.  The byte code is the law.
Byte code resulting from a Turing complete language can never be exhaustively tested or proved.
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August 03, 2016, 06:45:05 PM
 #12

I disagree. It was certainly bad code. Despite how minute this may seem, given more testing I feel it would have emerged eventually, even in related projects (like it did).

There is no systematic way to verify Turing complete code.  In as much as you can verify it, you limit yourself to a subset of the language that is not Turing complete.  Moreover, one should verify the byte code, and not the source code, because the VM runs on byte code and one is never totally sure about the compiler.  The byte code is the law.
Byte code resulting from a Turing complete language can never be exhaustively tested or proved.


I get that, in a very 'over my head' type way, but can we not agree this would have simply emerged had they exhaustively used the program (for 5 or 6 months)? Playstation is selling entertainment devices that have more rigorous field testing. This was a financial instrument. If it took years, it should have been trialed until the possibility of something like this happening was very unlikely.
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August 03, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
 #13

I get that, in a very 'over my head' type way, but can we not agree this would have simply emerged had they exhaustively used the program (for 5 or 6 months)? Playstation is selling entertainment devices that have more rigorous field testing. This was a financial instrument. If it took years, it should have been trialed until the possibility of something like this happening was very unlikely.

The point is that Turing completeness for contracts is a foolish idea.  A contract should be simple enough so that the whole tree of possibilities is verifiable.  All "what if" questions should be asked and answered.  Contracts where there are too many "what if" cases to be analyzed, or an undefined number of "what if" questions (Turing completeness), are an idiocy.  You don't want to sign a contract where you can't even know the number of cases it treats.  

If you think about it, the DAO itself was an idiocy.  After all, it was a very complicated way to say: "show me your proposal", followed by "OK, I'm going to invest a certain amount of money in you".   Ether was mutualized, then dismutualized, decisions were mutualized, and then again dismutualized, to, in the end, do something extremely simple:  "show me your proposal" and "I will give you money".  Each individual "investor" could do that separately.  The "vote" would be nothing else but agreeing, or not, to send a certain amount to the proposer.   This was in fact nothing else but an extremely involved way to have people do crowdfunding on propositions, but nothing is easier: a proposition proposes crowd funding, and you fund it or not.  Individually No smart contract was needed here.  The whole hype around the DAO was ridiculous if you think about it, it didn't establish anything useful that crowdfunding couldn't already establish.

The kind of smart contract that would be useful, are small smart contracts between two parties for instance, like in the Lightening network.  But doing that "on chain" is then again ridiculous as it defeats the purpose.  

I can in fact not think of many smart contract applications that make sense, and that need things that resemble Turing completeness.  In fact, a "compiler" and simple language to compile bitcoin scripts would probably be much more useful than Solidity.

This is what Van de Sande is saying even though I don't know if he realizes it himself.
 
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August 03, 2016, 07:29:17 PM
 #14

Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
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August 03, 2016, 09:43:48 PM
 #15

Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
No problem. It's a fascinating insight into the thinking and hard work completed by those in the ETH and DAO community. Everything done with the communities best interests at heart and all done under a strict deadline.

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August 04, 2016, 02:31:57 AM
 #16

This guy Alex is a hypocrite. He said this

"I respect Ethereum’s Classic philosophical position, in fact I was among the first to be publically against the hard fork, and helped in all other ways to avoid it. Once I felt there was an overwhelming majority support for it (and after having helped build tools to try to measure these supports), and long debates to try to understand both arguments, I accepted — and still do, the majority decision as a good one. In fact, if the fork was merely a dogmatic schism I would be able to appreciate the beauty of the free market figuring out on two philosophical and political positions and no further words were needed."

https://medium.com/@avsa/the-truth-about-the-fork-fd040c7ca955#.jhvc90xta

What "overwhelming majority"? This is what really happened

"Most people didn’t know, didn’t care, or couldn’t figure out how to vote. Carbonvote is a poll that weighed user votes by their ether account holdings. Only 5.5% of the total ether holders bothered to vote. A quarter of the DAO-Fork votes came from a single account."

http://elaineou.com/2016/07/18/stick-a-fork-in-ethereum/

So please do not support those hypocrites. They are playing with the people and their minds thinking us ignorant and stupid.


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August 04, 2016, 05:54:44 AM
 #17

No problem. It's a fascinating insight into the thinking and hard work completed by those in the ETH and DAO community. Everything done with the communities best interests at heart and all done under a strict deadline.

I'm sure the "hard work" is true.  However, there's a problem with "the thinking" visibly, because by their own account, the thing they are working on so hard has no value:

"What’s the value of a technology that is intended to build “smart contracts” if not even the top experts in the field can make sure they are either smart or contracts?"

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August 04, 2016, 06:10:55 AM
 #18

i have to tell you that despite the fact that i understand the theory and mechanics behind bitcoin and other derivatives, the hard fork is the hardest overall technique for me to sink my brain into.

it has always been my thought that a hard forking could be done by anyone and that it would take if more than 51% of the full nodes and/or nodes were to adopt it.  i may be wrong.  i find this to be the only true vulnerable point to the whole system.  again, this is something that gives me a hard thinking time.  i imagine that this "hack" could work....

1. you hard fork bitcoin on your own pc, with these exceptions to the standard dynamics

 a. you actually change nothing in the code other than the merkle

2. You code your own wallet, labeling BTC as another acronym and name, in other words, the GUI interacts with your new bitcoind hard fork, but displays different labels, something like "New Coin" and "NEW"

3. You have to then manage to push the coin hard and fast and get a huge number of wallets/nodes working

if this worked, your New Coin would be a hard fork of Bitcoin hidden within the guise of another coin, it would quickly be caught by someone, but the point is the "idea" and not the reality

if your new wallets and/or nodes ever hit the same number as the current bitcoin fork, then you would create the stronger chain(i think)

while this would never work with bitcoin, someone may be able to pull it off with a much newer coin with much less network power, especially if you were better at promoting the coin than the dev of the first fork.  this tells you my basic forking understanding and it is either way off base of not.  i believe that cloning/forking a coin with only a new merkle would create a competing chain of the same coin, and the same is true if only changing the ruleset and NOT the merkle, someone will tell me if i am wrong
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August 04, 2016, 06:11:45 AM
 #19

Fantastic article by Alex Van de Sande dispelling all the FUD and lies currently being propagated by the ETC criminal coin tards.

https://medium.com/@avsa/the-truth-about-the-fork-fd040c7ca955#.ho7lo8uxv

Cry baby, ETH is already done long ago/
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August 04, 2016, 06:39:26 AM
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i have to tell you that despite the fact that i understand the theory and mechanics behind bitcoin and other derivatives, the hard fork is the hardest overall technique for me to sink my brain into.

it has always been my thought that a hard forking could be done by anyone and that it would take if more than 51% of the full nodes and/or nodes were to adopt it.  i may be wrong. 

I think you're wrong because the word "hard fork" has been misused up to the ETH split.  Up to the ETH split, it has always been assumed that a change in protocol which renders it incompatible with the past, would simply MODIFY the future of a SINGLE block chain.  That comes down to ALL nodes in the end accepting the "winning" chain, in the same way as competing miners finally accept the "longest chain" (or the chain with most PoW), even though during a certain time, there may be two competing forks (usually 2 or 3 blocks, rarely more).

In other words, the idea was that there would only be one single block chain in the end, the one that "won" (in length, PoW, or whatever the standard criterion is to prefer one over the other).    In order to "win", you need 51% of the miners to be on the side of the winning chain for the whole time the competition is on.

But this is in fact an assumption that is not necessarily verified, because it is based upon a logical flaw: the competition between chains is only valid for chains with the same protocol.  A hard fork changes the protocol.  There is no "chain competition" between, say, the bitcoin chain, and the litecoin chain.  Miners do not build on one, or the other as a function of the "longest one".

When you do a hard fork, you have, by definition, two different protocols (even though a lot is similar of course).  If it weren't, it would be a soft fork.  As such, you really actually created two different coins, with two different block chains.
The only difference between two different coins, and a hard forked coin, is that they have a common piece of past chain.

So yes, ANYBODY CAN PULL A HARD FORK, even on bitcoin, and that person doesn't need to own 51% of the mining capacity on his side.  You can pull a hard fork of any coin in your basement, and then you've created a new coin.  If people get interested in that coin, then this coin can live as a separate coin.  The difference with a totally new coin, is that it has a common history up to the fork, and that all owners of the old coin are also holders of the new one.  Your ICO is identical to the coin distribution at the moment of the fork of the old coin.

The only thing that is needed, is that people get interested in your coin, and that SOME miners get interested in your coin.

But given the nature of the ICO, the bulk of the coin possession is in the hands of people that were holding another coin.  So in as much as they like THEIR coin, they may not be interested at all in yours, as yours may do competition to theirs.  On the other hand, they all got "free money" so why wouldn't they use your coin, after all ?

With bitcoin however, there's an added difficulty.  Bitcoin has a very conservative way of handling difficulty.  So unless you have a lot of mining power on your hands, you won't even be able to mine a single block on your own in your basement, because bitcoin's difficulty is so high - unless you change that in your protocol of course.

I think that ETH/ETC is very interesting to observe, because it is the first REAL hard fork that ever happened, where the two prongs survive and get independent market existence. 

Up to now, "hard fork" was simply meant "change of code and protocol", but the assumption was that the chain would not split.  That assumption is now proven false.

This has a very interesting double consequence.  The first is that the "power of the devs and the miners" has been shown actually not to be so great, which is good.  If they decide to pull a hard fork, people are not obliged to follow.  In the "single chain" assumption, the devs and the miners have the ultimate power, because "the longest chain wins".   Not any more. 

But the second consequence is much more obscure: probably every coin, even bitcoin, will split one day.  There is absolutely no reason that at no point in time, someone will not pull a bitcoin fork that will live on.  And "forking" is in fact a way of saying "inflation".   The number of coins doubles.  They remain distinguishable, and hence can have other than 50/50 % market value, but the market cap is diluted over them.

The probability of bitcoin splitting one day is probably similar to the probability of a new chain starting (altcoin) in the first days.

Up to now, people thought that the only way of making a new coin was to make a new genesis block, and then the issue of ICO or other initial seigniorage indicated itself.   But now we see that forking from a known coin is just as well a possibility, and there is much less discussion over ICO or premining: the actual state of coin distribution of, say, bitcoin is probably much better than an ICO or the core devs getting a lot of coins.

So the ETC/ETH fork may open an entirely new era in crypto, that of forking, and the associated inflation that goes with it, rendering the sound money doctrine somewhat superfluous.   The ETH hard fork did much more to crypto than was ever thought.

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