[Feeler] Trying to stay vague (for now) but need some answers from the community

[Chris!]

EDIT: I'm not selling a coin. I'm asking the physical bitcoin community for help because they are the only types of 'physical bitcoins' at the moment. I'll be referring to what I'm producing as 'the item'.

I'm working on a project at the moment. It's going to be at least a few months until I have a prototype ready, thus having an actual product [rather than some research and a great idea (IMO)].

Basically this is a physical collectible item that I would make 5-20 of in the first batch only, and depending on how it does I may do a second batch within a few months (or less. I know, lots of details here /s)

Basically this is a kind of 'physical bitcoin' but really taking a different approach on it. It's not a coin. I just had the idea pop into my head and I can't get it out now!

What I need to know is: should I start with 5, 10, 20?

Is it a good idea to have these funded with a small amount (0.01BTC)? a bigger amount (0.1-0.25BTC? Or make a few with a huge amount (1, 5, 10BTC)? Would people rather self-fund (aka: I sell them unfunded)?

It makes it a little difficult because I don't want to give out any details of what it actually is but if I get some answers that would help a lot! Thanks in advance!

 

[Lauda]

Is it a good idea to have these funded with a small amount (0.01BTC)? a bigger amount (0.1-0.25BTC? Or make a few with a huge amount (1, 5, 10BTC)? Would people rather self-fund (aka: I sell them unfunded)?

If you want a wider audience of buyers, the go with lower amounts e.g. 0.1 to 0.25. IMHO it is best to make funding optional, as in you can request funding if you want but it's not required. This is what miffman did with his coins. As an example, I would most likely stay away from this if all the coins were funded.

[coin@coin]

Funding optional, face value 0.1 or less, at least 20 of them I would say.
Also it depends on how you sell them if on auction, or fixed price, etc...

Maybe setup a poll see what people thinks, options would be DIY, Funded, Funded on Request.
You can also add the amount in the poll, 1BTC or more, 0.25 or less, 0.1 or less.

See what people comes up with then make your mind up.

[Chris!]

If you want a wider audience of buyers, the go with lower amounts e.g. 0.1 to 0.25. IMHO it is best to make funding optional, as in you can request funding if you want but it's not required. This is what miffman did with his coins. As an example, I would most likely stay away from this if all the coins were funded.

I think that makes the most sense too. Optional funding and most likely not high amounts. With the product I'm selling I really don't think anyone will want a huge amount. It's not as easy as hiding a silver 1oz coin.

Funding optional, face value 0.1 or less, at least 20 of them I would say.
Also it depends on how you sell them if on auction, or fixed price, etc...

Maybe setup a poll see what people thinks, options would be DIY, Funded, Funded on Request.
You can also add the amount in the poll, 1BTC or more, 0.25 or less, 0.1 or less.

See what people comes up with then make your mind up.

I thought I would just sell them at a flat rate but actually an auction would probably be the smartest as I'm having a hard time figuring out about where these should be priced. It may be difficult with ~20 items.

That's actually a really good idea to set up a poll.. Hmm.. can I do that now that I've already started this thread? I may just lock this topic and start a poll.

[gentlemand]

I wonder how inclined people are going to be to trust coins with private keys embedded now after that fella cleaned out all of the coins he minted.

[BG4]

I think I hit the luck number ..... 10... Was my very first set of prints...

[coin@coin]

I wonder how inclined people are going to be to trust coins with private keys embedded now after that fella cleaned out all of the coins he minted.

There is a risk of course, but simply owning Bitcoin is a risk in itself with potentially:
 

• someone hacking your computer and stealing BTC from you
• an exchange gets hacked
• something happens to the bitcoin network
• a bug is exploited in the code
• a software/mobile wallet gets exploited
• someone manages to crack private keys
• electricity cuts off near some of the big mining facilities (China, Iceland, etc), quake, volcano, act of god, provoking a chance for a 51% attack or instability
• an attack that cuts off some or all undersea internet cables specially the ones between China and the rest of the world (51%)
• North Korea attacking South Korea but one of their dodgy nukes sets off in the middle of China by mistake
• governments making BTC illegal
• and I could go on and on...

The above is not going to be the most popular list of Bitcoin security features nor will win a prize for most positive outlook.
I apologise for even mentioning them but I'm trying to make a point.

The "fella" (Coinographic) is the only one I know who did what he did. And he may not even be the last one...
There are hundreds of physical coin manufacturers so far and 1 out of hundreds misbehaving makes the chance of one or more of the scenarios above happening similarly close.
To be honest some are even more interested in Coinographic coins now after the fact than before, they were great looking coins and now they are also "infamous."
Some of them are really rare how do you know in 20 years they may even be worth more than if they were funded?
I do agree that what he did was nasty and to be able to betray people in such a manner means his life must not be a very happy one.

Also many physical bitcoins are DIY coins or unfunded, they are mainly collectibles.
The ones you can fund or come funded are from very respectable community members, again, never say never.

I like collecting physical Bitcoins, it's really good fun considering there's quite a few people here who all share the same passion.
It is a small community but we respect each other, can talk about coins for hours, enjoy trading, bidding on, raffling on and exchanging them.
To be honest this makes Bitcoin even more fun and interesting, at least for me. Some do it to make a little profit between buying and selling them, some just collect them.

Do I worry about PrivateKeys? Only have few funded coins... If I lose them it's not the end of the world, as much as if I lost my savings, stocks, pension fund, because a bank, company or a country defaults.
Will I be pissed off? Most likely. Is that risk going to stop me from doing what I like? Most unlikely.

At the end of the day, life goes on nevertheless, we are humans, social beings we like what we like because we do, can't really explain why someone likes collecting coins and someone else likes jumping off a plane, skydiving. I love Bitcoin, it is as risky as many other forms of value exchange are, if I can have a good time while living my life with a smile on my face and enjoy what I do I will, no matter what.



PS: Owning bitcoin or physical bitcoins (funded) carry more or less the same risk IMHO. Be safe, do your research, and don't risk more than you can afford to lose, and you should be just fine.
 

[Chris!]

I wonder how inclined people are going to be to trust coins with private keys embedded now after that fella cleaned out all of the coins he minted.

That's actually a good point. Maybe I should do pre-orders, have people generate a key themselves and I'll calculate a vanity address for that person, send them the part private key + the address via secure communication (forum, or something else).

So how that would work:

User1 would like to buy 1 item (it's not a coin).

He buys/sebds escrow funds/is the highest bidder.

He then follows the instructions in the PM and sends me a Hex public key.

I generate 1itemXXXBiTcoiNADdReSs and send him the private key with it.

He combines the keys, he already has the public address which is either funded or not (his choice), I do up some final work on the item to have the public key and voila, I shop it out and they have a completely secure address.

This sounds like a little more effort on my part and the client's part but I think if anyone is going to 'trust' me, that's going to be the best way (mainly because then you don't have to trust me).

Of course if they don't want it funded and never really care about funding it then this is irrelevant, they pay their base price to an escrow or myself and it's shipped out.

I think I hit the luck number ..... 10... Was my very first set of prints...

I'm thinking 10 for this may be the perfect number or not enough. I'm going to have a lot of speculation going on in my head because nothing like this has been done before. It's kind of a fun item to just look at and enjoy. I have a story behind how I came up with it that I hope people enjoy. I also may very well sell 0 because people don't care about it and I keep them all for myself haha.

There is a risk of course, but simply owning Bitcoin is a risk in itself with potentially:
 

• someone hacking your computer and stealing BTC from you
• an exchange gets hacked
• something happens to the bitcoin network
• a bug is exploited in the code
• a software/mobile wallet gets exploited
• someone manages to crack private keys
• electricity cuts off near some of the big mining facilities (China, Iceland, etc), quake, volcano, act of god, provoking a chance for a 51% attack or instability
• an attack that cuts off some or all undersea internet cables specially the ones between China and the rest of the world (51%)
• North Korea attacking South Korea but one of their dodgy nukes sets off in the middle of China by mistake
• governments making BTC illegal
• and I could go on and on...

-snip-

Also many physical bitcoins are DIY coins or unfunded, they are mainly collectibles.
The ones you can fund or come funded are from very respectable community members, again, never say never.

-snip-

PS: Owning bitcoin or physical bitcoins (funded) carry more or less the same risk IMHO. Be safe, do your research, and don't risk more than you can afford to lose, and you should be just fine.
 

It's a good point. There are lots of risks with Bitcoins. We definitely all know that. I just don't want people to trust me if they don't want to. Don't want to send me Bitcoins directly? Use an escrow. Don't want me to generate the address for you? It will take longer to create the item but if it's important to you it's important to me. I think I'll make that an option and go from there.


A big question though: if the item is going to be unfunded, should there still be something on it saying (for example) 0.1BTC on it? Or just leave it blank? I may have to buy a few different labels or create my own to order if people want a certain number on theirs.

[coin@coin]

For number of items, see what interest you get, surely if you have some pics to show or some drawings it will give everyone an idea. After that people can post to show their interest.
Keep that between brackets but should give you a good feel on the interest. Also think how much it will cost you to produce different amounts, is it worth it?

Actually having users provide you their BTC Addresses could be a first (that I'm aware of).
However if you then have to get them engraved it could take a long time to do, make sure you can give a good estimate on timeframes.

There's many ways to go at this, most new manufacturers don't fund or do it on-demand, but doesn't mean people wouldn't request it. So you could leave that open to each person.
Also if you have the items in stock, or soon to arrive but have a sample to show off, you can take reservations, this works pretty well actually.
And why would it be important for you to fund them? You don't really gain anything from that anyway... Unless...

Having a face value or not: up to you, if you don't fund them doesn't really matter; you could even put 1000 BTC or 1 million, actually it could be fun to have an extremely high number.
BTC is not cheap right now so having a reasonable face value is essential if you go the funded way. Do a poll with various numbers and see what people say.

If it's your first coin doesn't matter what you do, you need to gain the trust of users so I would keep things as easy, inexpensive and clear as possible.
Of course if you use precious metals that could bring the price up quite a bit. You will know best in that case.

[NattyLiteCoin]

I'll be doing non disclosure agreements for my coins, notarized by my state. It sucks, because I wish there was trust in this ecosystem, and there's not. But that's where we are unfortunately. So I'll be be culpuple for any suspicious activity:

My only advice is raise the fucking bar and get sick with what you plan to do.

[smoothie]

...

A big question though: if the item is going to be unfunded, should there still be something on it saying (for example) 0.1BTC on it? Or just leave it blank? I may have to buy a few different labels or create my own to order if people want a certain number on theirs.

Personally I think it helpful to have some sort of demarcation on the coin or hologram denoting if the coin was sold funded or unfunded.

[TheCoinCouncil]

I could help you with all aspects of making your coin and certify your coins are quality and then you can sell them to the community.
TCC

[TookDk]

--snip
He combines the keys, he already has the public address which is either funded or not (his choice), I do up some final work on the item to have the public key and voila, I shop it out and they have a completely secure address.

This sounds like a little more effort on my part and the client's part but I think if anyone is going to 'trust' me, that's going to be the best way (mainly because then you don't have to trust me).
--snip

Of course if they don't want it funded and never really care about funding it then this is irrelevant, they pay their base price to an escrow or myself and it's shipped out.

First of all I have a lot of respect for that you come out and not just assuming that everyone should trust you, "just" because you are making a coin.
I am sometimes surprised about how people are willing to trust new coin producer with their bitcoins, I am not talking about payment but the security of the private key.
When you confront a coin maker about the security, they always say something along the line: all private keys are destroyed, but there are never any kind of clear manifest about the procedure.

I personally think it is reckless to trust a random person with a private key containing anything more than a few bitcents - especially taking the coingraphic indecent into consideration.

The thing that makes a physical crypto coin unique is that it has a private key and it was funded at some point, which is documented in the blockchain.
From this point of view does it not make any difference if it is funded with 1 BTC or 0.01 BTC, however funding the coin with 0.01 BTC reduce the risk significantly for both buyer and producer.

The idea about 2FA or the buyers creates part of the private key takes the risk away from the producer, but it kills the 2nd market for the coin, instead of solely trusting the producer, then will you have to trust the 1st buyer as well, if the passphrase or partly private key is flawed then can the funds never be redeemed by any subsequent buyer.
 
TL;DR: I like small denominations best (0.01 - 0.05), private key created by producer with a clear manifest of how private keys are handled and destroyed, for the reasons stated above.

[Chris!]

First of all I have a lot of respect for that you come out and not just assuming that everyone should trust you, "just" because you are making a coin.
I am sometimes surprised about how people are willing to trust new coin producer with their bitcoins, I am not talking about payment but the security of the private key.
When you confront a coin maker about the security, they always say something along the line: all private keys are destroyed, but there are never any kind of clear manifest about the procedure.

Thanks. I understand no one knows me so I have to be cautious and offer all options that don't involve trusting me. Personally, I know I'm a very trustworthy person (but I'm also just a little bit biased )

The idea about 2FA or the buyers creates part of the private key takes the risk away from the producer, but it kills the 2nd market for the coin, instead of solely trusting the producer, then will you have to trust the 1st buyer as well, if the passphrase or partly private key is flawed then can the funds never be redeemed by any subsequent buyer.
 

I never would have thought of that. I guess I could make it the buyer's choice and go into detail about the pros and cons of either me making the private key or them doing it themselves. If Joe Everyman wants to buy a coin in the hopes to resell it is he better off selling it with a private key he created or one that I created? That'll be up to them I guess. If I let people choose though I'll have to post publicly who made their own private keys and whose private keys were generated by me so there's a record that people can check in the future. Maybe even a note in th Blockchain? Hmm...

Thanks for the value able input!

[smoothie]

--snip
He combines the keys, he already has the public address which is either funded or not (his choice), I do up some final work on the item to have the public key and voila, I shop it out and they have a completely secure address.

This sounds like a little more effort on my part and the client's part but I think if anyone is going to 'trust' me, that's going to be the best way (mainly because then you don't have to trust me).
--snip

Of course if they don't want it funded and never really care about funding it then this is irrelevant, they pay their base price to an escrow or myself and it's shipped out.

First of all I have a lot of respect for that you come out and not just assuming that everyone should trust you, "just" because you are making a coin.
I am sometimes surprised about how people are willing to trust new coin producer with their bitcoins, I am not talking about payment but the security of the private key.
When you confront a coin maker about the security, they always say something along the line: all private keys are destroyed, but there are never any kind of clear manifest about the procedure.

I personally think it is reckless to trust a random person with a private key containing anything more than a few bitcents - especially taking the coingraphic indecent into consideration.

The thing that makes a physical crypto coin unique is that it has a private key and it was funded at some point, which is documented in the blockchain.
From this point of view does it not make any difference if it is funded with 1 BTC or 0.01 BTC, however funding the coin with 0.01 BTC reduce the risk significantly for both buyer and producer.

The idea about 2FA or the buyers creates part of the private key takes the risk away from the producer, but it kills the 2nd market for the coin, instead of solely trusting the producer, then will you have to trust the 1st buyer as well, if the passphrase or partly private key is flawed then can the funds never be redeemed by any subsequent buyer.
 
TL;DR: I like small denominations best (0.01 - 0.05), private key created by producer with a clear manifest of how private keys are handled and destroyed, for the reasons stated above.

These are some very wise words ^

Be cautious when purchasing physical coins and do your research ahead of time.