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Author Topic: 3M Novec 7100 and antMiner S7/S9  (Read 3813 times)
unsoindovo
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August 09, 2016, 01:56:13 PM
 #1

I'm interested to implement this solution to improve performance and reduce fire risk.
I think ROI go away for the cost of the Novec fluid... but i think miners will be much more secure against flame and overburning.
Non one can share experience with this solutions??

thank you
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August 09, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
 #2

I have looked at this and it interests me,

However having no experience in the field I walked away, I don't have the experience to be messing with that kind of stuff,

Its also bloody expensive isn't it.

Done a bit of googling and found this tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBTYOOXX2o
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August 09, 2016, 07:57:43 PM
 #3

I've also thought about it, honestly i think it only makes sense if a MFG designs a kit that is make for liquid cooling. For theorhetical purposes or R&D heck yeah, but for ROI it goes to crap. Bitfury uses the novel fluid in their containerized datacenters, that's how they're able to get so much hashpower in such a small space. it most definitely works, idk about a retrofit thought.

One thing i have thought about is water cooling with water blocks, similar to what you'd use on a gaming pc. i think water blocks would have to be custom made and then removing, cleaning, and attaching the new water block would be quite the intensive process... I'd toy around with it, but im not volunteering to donate one of my S9's to science haha
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August 09, 2016, 09:39:29 PM
 #4

I also really like the idea of water cooled miners, they can be next to silent and the radiator can always be placed outside,

I personally loved the Antminer C1 for the water cooling capability of it. Didn't that Miner edge company also produce some water cooled stuff?
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August 10, 2016, 12:06:51 AM
 #5

Damnit, now ya got me thinkin' again...
Ya know, the s7 is pretty much the same hash board design and I have a few spares here...

The longer backside sinks, easy to replace with custom water blocks.

Topside -- cannot be removed without damage. So, a custom block with something such as a putty-like thermal gap-filler from Bergquist or such to mostly fill the existing chip sink fins and xfr heat to a block on top of them? Not as good as direct block contact with the chips but still far better than pushing air over them.
Hmm...

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sunbreak
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August 10, 2016, 05:40:28 PM
 #6

Just use mineral oil and a radiator and blow a fan through it like everyone elser. The only reason they use the Novec fluid is due to the low boiling point which they are using to help aid in a refrigeration cycle (condense, expand, condense)
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August 10, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
 #7

I have looked at this and it interests me,

However having no experience in the field I walked away, I don't have the experience to be messing with that kind of stuff,

Its also bloody expensive isn't it.

Done a bit of googling and found this tho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBTYOOXX2o
i found a lot of video on yout ube on two phase cooling...
but if seems easy to dip AISC hardware in novec liquid...it is less easy to understand how to build the condenser coil...
no info about the liquid temp inside...

i continue to search info
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August 10, 2016, 06:39:15 PM
 #8

I've also thought about it, honestly i think it only makes sense if a MFG designs a kit that is make for liquid cooling. For theorhetical purposes or R&D heck yeah, but for ROI it goes to crap. Bitfury uses the novel fluid in their containerized datacenters, that's how they're able to get so much hashpower in such a small space. it most definitely works, idk about a retrofit thought.

One thing i have thought about is water cooling with water blocks, similar to what you'd use on a gaming pc. i think water blocks would have to be custom made and then removing, cleaning, and attaching the new water block would be quite the intensive process... I'd toy around with it, but im not volunteering to donate one of my S9's to science haha

i think the same about ROI...
but until i dont understand better, liquid price and condenser coil price.. i continue to search.
Remember who whit this system... you get 2 important things
1) at the same power consumption, you can push miners preq veri high.
2) you definitely put out the risk of burn in your home farm
italianMiner72
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August 10, 2016, 06:59:55 PM
 #9

i found this interesting data sheet



it could help
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August 11, 2016, 12:57:03 AM
Last edit: August 11, 2016, 01:01:09 PM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #10

Liquid cooling of any sort 101:
For now, putting aside how heat is getting into the primary fluid to-air cooling loop be it direct contact using cooling blocks, oil-immersion fluid to air, or a 2-phase liquid/vapor 'Hot side' to fluid to air setup:

#1) All heat flow calcs are based on using either BTU/HR or for heat loads over several kW, Tons
2) Conversion factors:
  1kW = 3412.142 BTU/hr
  10kW = 2.84345 Tons
  A handy site is http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kW_to_BTU.htm and http://www.unitconversion.org/power/kilowatts-to-tons-refrigeration-conversion.html

That covered, we come to basic laws of heat transfer between two objects or mediums. Again, for simplicity media heat capacities, thermal resistance of the heat exchangers used, Heat exchanges size and even flow rates is left out.

That leads us to:
3) Based purely on what temp we want to maintain at the load (miners) vs the temp the sink or where the heat is going  (outside air, a large pond, a swimming pool, etc) the general rule is:

The amount of heat energy (power, BTU's whatever) that can be moved is directly related to Tempload - Tempsink or more commonly referred to as Δt.

Now to apply these basics to miners, 1st remember that:
a) miners are quite happy at say, 61C (141.8F). That's pretty toasty and more than uncomfortable to the touch.
b) Even using an extreme sink temp - in our case, eventually ambient air - of 50C (122F) we still have a pretty decent Δt With a more reasonable ambient air temp even better.
c) That in turn means we only have to dissipate enough heat into the sink (air) by using a honking big outside fluid-to-air heat exchanger to keep the desired miner tank temp where we want it. At a minimum you will need desired temp and Δt between that and the sink (air) along with BTU's or Tons to be dissipated to start sizing a radiator or cooling tower.

In summary, given that it is MUCH easier to transport massive amounts of heat energy in a fluid moving through pipes vs just moving a massive amount of air it gives a huge advantage where feasible or appropriate. Liquid is of course much more compact on the load end (miners packed in tanks) and pipes are a helluva lot smaller/easier to route than air ducts. Only really big part is the sink end but since that is outside, not a huge issue to deal with.

To be continued...
  

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
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August 11, 2016, 02:20:11 AM
 #11

Liquid cooling of any sort 101:
For now, putting aside how heat is getting into the primary fluid to-air cooling loop be it direct contact using cooling blocks, oil-immersion fluid to air, or a 2-phase liquid/vapor 'Hot side' to fluid to air setup:

#1) All heat flow calcs are based on using either BTU/HR or for heat loads over several kW, Tons
2) Conversion factors:
  1kW = 3412.142 BUT/hr
  10kW = 2.84345 Tons
  A handy site is http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kW_to_BTU.htm and http://www.unitconversion.org/power/kilowatts-to-tons-refrigeration-conversion.html

That covered, we come to basic laws of heat transfer between two objects or mediums. Again, for simplicity media heat capacities, thermal resistance of the heat exchangers used, Heat exchanges size and even flow rates is left out.

That leads us to:
3) Based purely on what temp we want to maintain at the load (miners) vs the temp the sink or where the heat is going  (outside air, a large pond, a swimming pool, etc) the general rule is:

The amount of heat energy (power, BTU's whatever) that can be moved is directly related to Tempload - Tempsink or more commonly referred to as Δt.

Now to apply these basics to miners, 1st remember that:
a) miners are quite happy at say, 61C (141.8F). That's pretty toasty and more than uncomfortable to the touch.
b) Even using an extreme sink temp - in our case, eventually ambient air - of 50C (122F) we still have a pretty decent Δt With a more reasonable ambient air temp even better.
c) That in turn means we only have to dissipate enough heat into the sink (air) by using a honking big outside fluid-to-air heat exchanger to keep the desired miner tank temp where we want it. At a minimum you will need desired temp and Δt between that and the sink (air) along with BTU's or Tons to be dissipated to start sizing a radiator or cooling tower.

In summary, given that it is MUCH easier to transport massive amounts of heat energy in a fluid moving through pipes vs just moving a massive amount of air it gives a huge advantage where feasible or appropriate. Liquid is of course much more compact on the load end (miners packed in tanks) and pipes are a helluva lot smaller/easier to route than air ducts. Only really big part is the sink end but since that is outside, not a huge issue to deal with.

To be continued...
  

So does all this brainstorming mean your wheels are spinning on some S7/S9 Water block mods  Grin
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August 11, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
 #12

I looked into this quite a bit back in the S5 days - really, you can pick whatever miner you want, I think everyone who has seen the videos of Novec immediately goes "I WANT THAT!".  I actually went so far as to buy some of it to experiment with a bit, and I had three big takeaways from it... The first is that the actual system in production is much more complicated than it appears.  You aren't just tossing the boards into the Novec, you have to manage how the cables come into the enclosure, and this is surprisingly challenging (and I love acrylic, look at any of the enclosures I've designed in other threads).  The other big enclosure issue is that you still have to have some sort of cold water loop to bring the gas Novec back into it's liquid state - and this leads to my second big takeaway, and that is that you're still left having to deal with the heat.  The best way I found to think of Novec is that it's a REALLY efficient way of transferring heat from one place to another - in this case it's transferring heat from the ASIC to your cold water loop... But the net result is that the water loop now contains the heat.  Sure, dealing with a radiator and being able to convey the heat trapped in water is much more convenient than air.

And then that lets to my final takeaway - part of the system failed at some point in my testing, and the Novec turned to gas and ran away.  All of it.  $1000 basically vaporized overnight, oh, and they took the ASIC with them, since it promptly burned itself up once the Novec took off.  The system itself worked fine for a few weeks, so I wasn't some catastrophic design flaw, but in the end something failed and it was able to escape.  Now keep in mind that I'm in Arizona, so the ambient temps were 100f+, which certainly helped Novec in it's jailbreak - but the real bitch is that I never was able to figure out what failed.  I poured over the enclosure trying to find the leak, but never was successful - and I suspect this is also why in some of the 3M units they actually do some really light pressurization, so they can detect a leak before it's visibly failing.

So for me, the completed system (sealed enclosures, pressurization, water loops, etc) cost so much more than just fans blowing air - and the potential downside of failure being the complete and utter destruction of the system (and Novec, which ironically was the most expensive single component), made this a something not worth pursing - for me at least.  Wink
NotFuzzyWarm
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August 11, 2016, 03:22:12 AM
Last edit: August 11, 2016, 04:22:40 AM by NotFuzzyWarm
 #13

Bet you used Novec 7000 which boils at 34C (93.2F)?
I was thinking about the 7100 which boils @ 61C (141.8F). Means it's stable even in very very uncomfortable if not deadly ambient temps. Also means that you can have the higher delta-t between its boiling/condensing temp and the water cooling loop.

Ja some slight pressurization to leak detection purposes would be a good idea. BitFury's data tanks are sealed and also show a rather large pipe coming out. An over pressure relief pipe perhaps if the water loop fails and China Syndrome sets in?

With oil immersion what I see is 2 points:
1st being what is the long term effect of the oil or other fluid on the miners? Will it seep into metal can caps? Harden/embrittle plastics or make them swell? Attack whatever thermal glue used to bond the top sinks to the chips? etc. Anyone have a miner that has been in oil for a few years to examine then fire up and see it it still works?

2nd deals with the heat-capacity and viscosity of most oils. Rather poor on both counts and far from ideal but can be dealt with if needed. There are other other heat transfer fluids like ones from Paratherm that are designed just for this: Thin viscosity so pumps and flows very well with much smaller eddies around parts along with much higher capacity than mineral oils. Also decent lists and support on what materials the fluids are compatible with. But of course- like Novec, damn pricey.

edit: Damn you... We have a 55gal drum of Shell Diala-AX high dialectic transformer and other electrical component insulator/cooling oil. Stuff is not much thicker than water. I do know that it rapidly sucks the plasticizers out of vinyl and hardens it within a couple months. Bigger possible downside is that it is designed as a penetrating oil (for getting into the winding's of transformers). O-ring seals do not stop it so it getting inside metal can caps is a concern as well. But it is also compatible with most other materials used in electronics. Think I'll dunk an old s1 board in some for a few months...

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
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August 11, 2016, 07:22:57 AM
 #14

And then that lets to my final takeaway - part of the system failed at some point in my testing, and the Novec turned to gas and ran away.  All of it.  $1000 basically vaporized overnight, oh, and they took the ASIC with them, since it promptly burned itself up once the Novec took off.

damn!!! this liquid it is very expensive!!!
I never thought to this possibility!!!
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August 11, 2016, 08:10:24 AM
 #15

Bet you used Novec 7000 which boils at 34C (93.2F)?

Must have been - I don't recall there being one that had a higher temp, but there are so many caveats to it, plus so many variations.  It actually has the same issue as the dialectric oil you mentioned - although not nearly as bad - you have to check each material that it comes in contact with and ensure that it won't have a chemical reaction with it.  I also know there can be issues with contaminants getting into the Novec and causing issues - but alas I didn't have enough time with it to encounter anything like that.

I played around quite a bit with water cooling - sold two of my quad S5 water cooled builds on here, and dismantled my custom stuff (once again, acrylic is great with water cooling).  I've never done anything with oil immersion just because of the mess involved, plus you have terrible viscosity in most cases to try to move it around in any meaningful way.

damn!!! this liquid it is very expensive!!!
I never thought to this possibility!!!

It's actually probably even more expensive than you think!  Wink  Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall it was in the $500/gallon range.  The $1000 we spent was enough to do a couple S5's - you learn quickly with it that you're best off putting them inside of a kind of acrylic sandwich, so there's as little Novec actually used as possible, and what is used can be used effectively.

Let me also say that I still think this stuff is bad a**, but it just isn't cost effective for mining...
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August 11, 2016, 02:42:32 PM
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Quote
Ja some slight pressurization to leak detection purposes would be a good idea. BitFury's data tanks are sealed and also show a rather large pipe coming out. An over pressure relief pipe perhaps if the water loop fails and China Syndrome sets in?

With oil immersion what I see is 2 points:
1st being what is the long term effect of the oil or other fluid on the miners? Will it seep into metal can caps? Harden/embrittle plastics or make them swell? Attack whatever thermal glue used to bond the top sinks to the chips? etc. Anyone have a miner that has been in oil for a few years to examine then fire up and see it it still works?

As far as the plastic\brittle aspect of mineral oil goes, it definitely has a negative effect on the cables that come in contact with the oil. Back in highschool we put PC in a fishtank submerged in mineral oil. The power cable was hard as a rock after sitting in it for a couple months.
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August 11, 2016, 04:49:02 PM
 #17

For those that want to try this, but the cost of the Novec is way too much.  You can test this out with a much cheaper alternative and there's been threads on Mineral Oil Submersion systems here before.  Why not test it with that first and then decide if you want to go to Novec?
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August 11, 2016, 05:18:47 PM
 #18

For those that want to try this, but the cost of the Novec is way too much.  You can test this out with a much cheaper alternative and there's been threads on Mineral Oil Submersion systems here before.  Why not test it with that first and then decide if you want to go to Novec?
For me, playing with Novec would be fun but it's cost kills that idea. I really don't care for the issues with any other type of fluid submersion cooling so that brings me back to using cooling blocks.

Now just need to think of how to couple a cold plate to the short topside heat sinks... Using a thermal gap filler putty like from Bergquist would be dandy. Just put a blob on each chipsink to fill most of the open area between the fins. But once again, it is not cheap although far more affordable than Novec or most other engineered thermal transfer fluids.

For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself - Joshua Zipkin aka Joshua Alexander leaked AMT A1 miner skype chats
How a miner mfgr SHOULD operate: HaggsFIN trip to Canaan My info useful? Donations welcome! 1Fuzzyk398kDWVjuC5qPX5v6CjSkvbgAbd
-Support Sidehacks miner development. Donations to:   1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
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August 11, 2016, 05:58:52 PM
 #19

For those that want to try this, but the cost of the Novec is way too much.  You can test this out with a much cheaper alternative and there's been threads on Mineral Oil Submersion systems here before.  Why not test it with that first and then decide if you want to go to Novec?

While I haven't done oil immersion myself, I can tell you that you'll learn very little that will translate between the two - the way Novec works is completely different than traditional submersion.  Keep in mind that traditional submersion still requires you to move around the liquid just like you move around air - if you don't move the liquid, it will ultimately burn up.  Novec boils, so you don't need anything circulating it around - on top of that, because of the state change you're now dealing with extracting heat from a gas, instead of a liquid.  The whole process is totally different and far more complicated than what I've read about traditional immersion cooling...

Not saying that you shouldn't play around with immersion if it interests you - just saying you're more like likely not going to learn anything that is relevant for Novec.
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August 12, 2016, 04:47:39 PM
 #20

For those that want to try this, but the cost of the Novec is way too much.  You can test this out with a much cheaper alternative and there's been threads on Mineral Oil Submersion systems here before.  Why not test it with that first and then decide if you want to go to Novec?
For me, playing with Novec would be fun but it's cost kills that idea. I really don't care for the issues with any other type of fluid submersion cooling so that brings me back to using cooling blocks.

Now just need to think of how to couple a cold plate to the short topside heat sinks... Using a thermal gap filler putty like from Bergquist would be dandy. Just put a blob on each chipsink to fill most of the open area between the fins. But once again, it is not cheap although far more affordable than Novec or most other engineered thermal transfer fluids.

1000$ (about 900eur) for 1 gallon or for EU 245eur for 1 liter is too much.
specially in EU i will never see ROI
I thought novec cost a lot less!!!!
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