Bitcoin Gambling Investments

[coingamblingreviews]

This is a great idea, I liked the answers I got from the questions I asked and I might do a blog post on it. If you have any specific questions you want asked let me know and I will ask the admin.

The following questions seem to be appropriate:

1. What is their max win amount, and how does it change with the change in the size of the bankroll?
2. Is it possible to divest immediately, and if not, what is the grace period then?
3. What fees are charged for investing and divesting?

I have been following your thread for a long time and i have to warned that this investment on kingdice. With just 1btc invested can make up 7.5% of the bankroll, it seems like the bankroll is very small and the site does not have a strong rep yet.

But when it reaches the size of BetKing, you may already be too late to the party. I'm myself thinking about investing a small amount into their bankroll, something like 0.1 BTC, just testing waters. Let's see how it plays out in the end!

Good questions which I asked already (if you are reading this KingDice and I say something incorrect, please correct me):
1) 1% of the bankroll is max win. It changes dynamically with the balance.
2) Divest is instant with no fee or grace period.
3) 0 for divesting (but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly).

Thanks for the consolidated update in one post.

I didn't understood the third point. What is this meaning ' but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly " ? Divest can be done without any fee but what is this 50%?

Sorry for the confusion I didn't understand the question 100%. So there is no fee to invest or divest however the house takes 50% of the sites profits/loses and the other 50% is shared with the investors.

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[hua_hui]

This is a great idea, I liked the answers I got from the questions I asked and I might do a blog post on it. If you have any specific questions you want asked let me know and I will ask the admin.

The following questions seem to be appropriate:

1. What is their max win amount, and how does it change with the change in the size of the bankroll?
2. Is it possible to divest immediately, and if not, what is the grace period then?
3. What fees are charged for investing and divesting?

I have been following your thread for a long time and i have to warned that this investment on kingdice. With just 1btc invested can make up 7.5% of the bankroll, it seems like the bankroll is very small and the site does not have a strong rep yet.

But when it reaches the size of BetKing, you may already be too late to the party. I'm myself thinking about investing a small amount into their bankroll, something like 0.1 BTC, just testing waters. Let's see how it plays out in the end!

Good questions which I asked already (if you are reading this KingDice and I say something incorrect, please correct me):
1) 1% of the bankroll is max win. It changes dynamically with the balance.
2) Divest is instant with no fee or grace period.
3) 0 for divesting (but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly).

Thanks for the consolidated update in one post.

I didn't understood the third point. What is this meaning ' but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly " ? Divest can be done without any fee but what is this 50%?

It means the fee is already taken out immediately even before it reach you. So what you see is what you get.

[mrcash02]

This is a great idea, I liked the answers I got from the questions I asked and I might do a blog post on it. If you have any specific questions you want asked let me know and I will ask the admin.

The following questions seem to be appropriate:

1. What is their max win amount, and how does it change with the change in the size of the bankroll?
2. Is it possible to divest immediately, and if not, what is the grace period then?
3. What fees are charged for investing and divesting?

I have been following your thread for a long time and i have to warned that this investment on kingdice. With just 1btc invested can make up 7.5% of the bankroll, it seems like the bankroll is very small and the site does not have a strong rep yet.

But when it reaches the size of BetKing, you may already be too late to the party. I'm myself thinking about investing a small amount into their bankroll, something like 0.1 BTC, just testing waters. Let's see how it plays out in the end!

Good questions which I asked already (if you are reading this KingDice and I say something incorrect, please correct me):
1) 1% of the bankroll is max win. It changes dynamically with the balance.
2) Divest is instant with no fee or grace period.
3) 0 for divesting (but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly).

Thanks for the consolidated update in one post.

I didn't understood the third point. What is this meaning ' but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly " ? Divest can be done without any fee but what is this 50%?

Sorry for the confusion I didn't understand the question 100%. So there is no fee to invest or divest however the house takes 50% of the sites profits/loses and the other 50% is shared with the investors.

To invest there is no fee. When you want to divest, if you didn't invest for much time (short investment), you will need to pay a fee. That is in Crypto-Games. The house shares 80% of profit with investors, but will reduce to 70% now. I don't know about other casinos, but I will check yet and see if it's good as Crypto-Games.

[raaajlucky]

This is a great idea, I liked the answers I got from the questions I asked and I might do a blog post on it. If you have any specific questions you want asked let me know and I will ask the admin.

The following questions seem to be appropriate:

1. What is their max win amount, and how does it change with the change in the size of the bankroll?
2. Is it possible to divest immediately, and if not, what is the grace period then?
3. What fees are charged for investing and divesting?

I have been following your thread for a long time and i have to warned that this investment on kingdice. With just 1btc invested can make up 7.5% of the bankroll, it seems like the bankroll is very small and the site does not have a strong rep yet.

But when it reaches the size of BetKing, you may already be too late to the party. I'm myself thinking about investing a small amount into their bankroll, something like 0.1 BTC, just testing waters. Let's see how it plays out in the end!

Good questions which I asked already (if you are reading this KingDice and I say something incorrect, please correct me):
1) 1% of the bankroll is max win. It changes dynamically with the balance.
2) Divest is instant with no fee or grace period.
3) 0 for divesting (but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly).

Thanks for the consolidated update in one post.

I didn't understood the third point. What is this meaning ' but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly " ? Divest can be done without any fee but what is this 50%?

It means the fee is already taken out immediately even before it reach you. So what you see is what you get.

Site will show investors their profits after deducting their fee 50% right? Investors take only 50% of the site profit and remaining 50% site will take for maintaining the site and investors should take 100% risk if anyone wins from the site.

[TheGodFather]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

[Maslate]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

Not all the time but in general they are profitable, you can actually check on the reputable gambling sites that offers investment program. Honestly, I tried investing in gambling sites but I found out thru experience that we should put a decent amount if we are expecting great return.

The return in terms of percentage is not that high but at least we can have consistent income, ideal for investors who has a big capital.

[hua_hui]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

The profit is not stable at all. There are huge ups and downs. So unless you plan to invest for long, you may not be able to see the profits. It is better to invest in real world stocks and bonds that constantly pays you dividends.

[KingDice]

This is a great idea, I liked the answers I got from the questions I asked and I might do a blog post on it. If you have any specific questions you want asked let me know and I will ask the admin.

The following questions seem to be appropriate:

1. What is their max win amount, and how does it change with the change in the size of the bankroll?
2. Is it possible to divest immediately, and if not, what is the grace period then?
3. What fees are charged for investing and divesting?

I have been following your thread for a long time and i have to warned that this investment on kingdice. With just 1btc invested can make up 7.5% of the bankroll, it seems like the bankroll is very small and the site does not have a strong rep yet.

But when it reaches the size of BetKing, you may already be too late to the party. I'm myself thinking about investing a small amount into their bankroll, something like 0.1 BTC, just testing waters. Let's see how it plays out in the end!

Good questions which I asked already (if you are reading this KingDice and I say something incorrect, please correct me):
1) 1% of the bankroll is max win. It changes dynamically with the balance.
2) Divest is instant with no fee or grace period.
3) 0 for divesting (but 50% of the next profits taken out weekly).

Yeah those are true. Max profit changes dynamically on every bet, and maximum profit on Win is 1% of bankroll.
No fees or grace periods on divests (But please don't spam it )
Also, the profit that you see, is the profit that you get. 

[tee-rex]

Yeah those are true. Max profit changes dynamically on every bet, and maximum profit on Win is 1% of bankroll.
No fees or grace periods on divests (But please don't spam it )
Also, the profit that you see, is the profit that you get. 

That seems one of the most important points, thanks

The profit is not stable at all. There are huge ups and downs. So unless you plan to invest for long, you may not be able to see the profits. It is better to invest in real world stocks and bonds that constantly pays you dividends.

Though I certainly agree that holding stocks of such companies as Apple, Google, Microsoft, et cetera has been profitable in the long run, either through their stock going up directly or through dividends, that's not the point of investing bitcoins. We want to grow bitcoins while keeping bitcoins in the hope that we will profit twice here too, both through Bitcoin appreciating and through our investments earning a few satoshis as well.

[Dogedigital]

If I recall correctly, BetKing was offering somewhere around 450 Bitcoin Max bet when the bankroll was at 4500 Bitcoin?  If this max bet won, regardless of what you had invested, you would stand to lose 10% for the bet and another 2.5% (?) for the commission for -12.5% of your investment from one bet.  

I think you may have it wrong. BetKing was allowing each investor to set their own 'Kelly multiplier". If a player won 10% of the bankroll that loss would have been borne by those investors with the highest Kelly multipliers. Any investor with a regular 1x multiplier would have lost no more than 1% of their investment on any roll. It's not unreasonable to allow investors to use high leverage so they don't have to expose themselves to so much counterparty risk so long as you don't force it on everyone.

Also, the commission was 25% of the profits plus 25% of the house edge. In the case of a winning player there's no profit, so the commission is just 25% of the house edge, or 25% of 1% of the stake, or 0.25% of the stake.

Since it's the max profit per bet that is fixed and not the max stake, the commission depends on the payout multiplier. If the winning player bet at 98% (a roughly 1.010204x payout multiplier) to win 450 BTC profit, their stake would need to be 44100 BTC, and the commission on that bet would be 0.25% of that, or 110.25 BTC, in which case the investor at 1x Kelly would be losing 1.245% of their investment at most.

At the other extreme, if the winning play bet at 0.0001% (a 990,000x payout multiplier) to win 450 BTC profit, their stake would need to be just 0.00045454 BTC, and so the commission on that bet would be pretty much zero, and the investor ends up losing at most 1.00000101% of their investment.

All this is moot now of course since betking is moving from a model where investors get to keep 50% of the expected profit (before expenses) and can divest whenever they like to a new exciting model where they keep 30% of the profit (after expenses) and cannot divest.

Always nice to have an accurate and insightful post from dooglus

Thanks for clarifying.  That makes more sense for the calculations.

I understand the reasoning behind allowing for Kelly (trying to make it so that investors have less exposure), but it seemed like everyone preferred to use 10x Kelly with their full investment (I'd imagine most players on JD have max leverage as well) which went against what was initially trying to be accomplished.

-----
Would this hypothetical scenario then be right for BetKing's old model?

An investor has 400 Bitcoin invested at 10x Kelly which represents 10% of the entire bankroll (4000 Bitcoin).
A whale bets 400 Bitcoin at 50% and wins.
Commission taken is 400 * 0.0025 = 1 Bitcoin and the total bankroll loss is 401 Bitcoin.
Bankroll is now 4000 - 401 = 3,599 Bitcoin.
The investor still holds 10% of the entire bankroll and his investment is now 359.9 Bitcoin.
The investor's loss on a single wager (40.1 BTC) is 10.025% of their investment.
-----


Also, if the argument for why BetKing had much better bankroll management than BitVest was the option for 1x Kelly, Bitvest also allows 1x Kelly.

Furthermore, not to knock on Crypto-games (I think they run their site well), limiting their max win to 0.5% of older than 1 week bankroll (currently 5.73 BTC) does not guarantee that a whale can't come in and do some great damage (N8snathan did heavy damage within this exact range of betting to Bitvest).

My point is I still think these decisions and charts made by coingamblingreviews for where to invest are being based off of recent results which in a sense is just guessing and gambling (albeit at a +ev rate because all sites should yield positive earnings in the long run).

[TOPBTCCASINOS]

If I recall correctly, BetKing was offering somewhere around 450 Bitcoin Max bet when the bankroll was at 4500 Bitcoin?  If this max bet won, regardless of what you had invested, you would stand to lose 10% for the bet and another 2.5% (?) for the commission for -12.5% of your investment from one bet.  

I think you may have it wrong. BetKing was allowing each investor to set their own 'Kelly multiplier". If a player won 10% of the bankroll that loss would have been borne by those investors with the highest Kelly multipliers. Any investor with a regular 1x multiplier would have lost no more than 1% of their investment on any roll. It's not unreasonable to allow investors to use high leverage so they don't have to expose themselves to so much counterparty risk so long as you don't force it on everyone.

Also, the commission was 25% of the profits plus 25% of the house edge. In the case of a winning player there's no profit, so the commission is just 25% of the house edge, or 25% of 1% of the stake, or 0.25% of the stake.

Since it's the max profit per bet that is fixed and not the max stake, the commission depends on the payout multiplier. If the winning player bet at 98% (a roughly 1.010204x payout multiplier) to win 450 BTC profit, their stake would need to be 44100 BTC, and the commission on that bet would be 0.25% of that, or 110.25 BTC, in which case the investor at 1x Kelly would be losing 1.245% of their investment at most.

At the other extreme, if the winning play bet at 0.0001% (a 990,000x payout multiplier) to win 450 BTC profit, their stake would need to be just 0.00045454 BTC, and so the commission on that bet would be pretty much zero, and the investor ends up losing at most 1.00000101% of their investment.

All this is moot now of course since betking is moving from a model where investors get to keep 50% of the expected profit (before expenses) and can divest whenever they like to a new exciting model where they keep 30% of the profit (after expenses) and cannot divest.

Always nice to have an accurate and insightful post from dooglus

Thanks for clarifying.  That makes more sense for the calculations.

I understand the reasoning behind allowing for Kelly (trying to make it so that investors have less exposure), but it seemed like everyone preferred to use 10x Kelly with their full investment (I'd imagine most players on JD have max leverage as well) which went against what was initially trying to be accomplished.

-----
Would this hypothetical scenario then be right for BetKing's old model?

An investor has 400 Bitcoin invested at 10x Kelly which represents 10% of the entire bankroll (4000 Bitcoin).
A whale bets 400 Bitcoin at 50% and wins.
Commission taken is 400 * 0.0025 = 1 Bitcoin and the total bankroll loss is 401 Bitcoin.
Bankroll is now 4000 - 401 = 3,599 Bitcoin.
The investor still holds 10% of the entire bankroll and his investment is now 359.9 Bitcoin.
The investor's loss on a single wager (40.1 BTC) is 10.025% of their investment.
-----


Also, if the argument for why BetKing had much better bankroll management than BitVest was the option for 1x Kelly, Bitvest also allows 1x Kelly.

Furthermore, not to knock on Crypto-games (I think they run their site well), limiting their max win to 0.5% of older than 1 week bankroll (currently 5.73 BTC) does not guarantee that a whale can't come in and do some great damage (N8snathan did heavy damage within this exact range of betting to Bitvest).

My point is I still think these decisions and charts made by coingamblingreviews for where to invest are being based off of recent results which in a sense is just guessing and gambling (albeit at a +ev rate because all sites should yield positive earnings in the long run).

I agree it seems a bit hard on Bitvest, but I actually just looked at their chart today and at one point the site was down to 10 bitcoins profit over a year period. Horrible investment compared to the other ones in this thread if you actually look at the real returns.

The best thing about this thread is that we can look in hindsight and really see what was the best scenario and if the right moves were justified. I don't the OP is telling anyone to invest anywhere he is making decisions with his own money and if we don't like it we don't need to listen.

I agree that all sites should be EV positive in the long run but a lot of other factors like 'guessing' come into play. Such as:
- How much will people gamble on a site with regards to the bankroll?
- If there is a big Kelly option will most investors take it and force others too?
- If a site looks less appealing to play on will it get players in the long run?
- How trusted is the site?

My 2 cents worth

[RHavar]

I understand the reasoning behind allowing for Kelly (trying to make it so that investors have less exposure), but it seemed like everyone preferred to use 10x Kelly with their full investment (I'd imagine most players on JD have max leverage as well) which went against what was initially trying to be accomplished.

Why's that? If everyone is leveraged at 10x, it should mean that (rational) investors are storing a lot less on site then they otherwise would -- and thus achieving the goal of exposing investors to less counter party risk.

Of course there will be some "gambling investor" who are over leveraged -- but if they wish to gamble like that, that's their prerogative. They might do super well, but on the whole they should expect to lose their money and be outperformed by the people who didn't over leverage their position.

[tee-rex]

I understand the reasoning behind allowing for Kelly (trying to make it so that investors have less exposure), but it seemed like everyone preferred to use 10x Kelly with their full investment (I'd imagine most players on JD have max leverage as well) which went against what was initially trying to be accomplished.

Why's that? If everyone is leveraged at 10x, it should mean that (rational) investors are storing a lot less on site then they otherwise would -- and thus achieving the goal of exposing investors to less counter party risk.

Of course there will be some "gambling investor" who are over leveraged -- but if they wish to gamble like that, that's their prerogative. They might do super well, but on the whole they should expect to lose their money and be outperformed by the people who didn't over leverage their position.

Investors, especially those in gambling investments, aren't always the most rational .  I'd guess that the majority of those that are leveraged at 10x are applying it to what they fully planned to invest initially. 

You must be kidding. Investors anywhere and into anywhere are not very rational on the whole. Just because we can come to a conclusion if a certain investment was rational only in hindsight for the most part. In other words, if an investment turned out to be profitable, it had been a rational investment, if not then it hadn't.

Success is never blamed.

[coingamblingreviews]

4 months and 2 weeks now and we have added KingDice to our investments (took 1 Bitcoin out of Crypto-Games).

[Oralmat]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

It is right, if we invest in gambling sites than it is more profitable than use your amount in gambling, Also i know that everyone who are using bitcoin they have a lot of trust on all gambling sites, So it is really good to do investment wise with bitcoin in gambling sites. Otherwise if we use other sites for investing, than they all are risky and many people are not trust on them, including me. 

[trafficolaa]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

It is right, if we invest in gambling sites than it is more profitable than use your amount in gambling, Also i know that everyone who are using bitcoin they have a lot of trust on all gambling sites, So it is really good to do investment wise with bitcoin in gambling sites. Otherwise if we use other sites for investing, than they all are risky and many people are not trust on them, including me. 

Will do agreed with you investment in bankroll is more profitable as we can see above the statics of OP how doing profitable for him, that is good decision to keep us on side of the house because the house know how to make profit in long run.

[Dogedigital]

I understand the reasoning behind allowing for Kelly (trying to make it so that investors have less exposure), but it seemed like everyone preferred to use 10x Kelly with their full investment (I'd imagine most players on JD have max leverage as well) which went against what was initially trying to be accomplished.

Why's that? If everyone is leveraged at 10x, it should mean that (rational) investors are storing a lot less on site then they otherwise would -- and thus achieving the goal of exposing investors to less counter party risk.

Of course there will be some "gambling investor" who are over leveraged -- but if they wish to gamble like that, that's their prerogative. They might do super well, but on the whole they should expect to lose their money and be outperformed by the people who didn't over leverage their position.

Investors, especially those in gambling investments, aren't always the most rational .  I'd guess that the majority of those that are leveraged at 10x are applying it to what they fully planned to invest initially.  

You must be kidding. Investors anywhere and into anywhere are not very rational on the whole. Just because we can come to a conclusion if a certain investment was rational only in hindsight for the most part. In other words, if an investment turned out to be profitable, it had been a rational investment, if not then it hadn't.

Success is never blamed.

I'm sorry, I'm not really following what you are saying.

What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't use past results to dictate future ones or influence the way investments should be decided.

From what I read earlier, it seemed like decisions were being made that way (BetKing being praised and Bitvest being put down solely because of their results).

Say you are playing roulette on 2 wheels at the same time and always bet red:
On Wheel 1, you hit 8 reds out of 10.
On Wheel 2, you hit 4 reds out of 10.

You shouldn't quit wheel 2 and play wheel 1 only based on this.

Similarly, I don't think you should quit one investment and move it all to one site because one was doing bad and one was doing good.

[Bitcoinsummoner]

i heard that investing in gambling sites bank roll is more stable profit than investing in other thing. im planning also to invest bitcoin on a gamblings sites that offer bank roll hoping that i can gain enough and more stable profit from it than wasting my bitcoin in gambling that im not even sure if i can get my capital from it. thanks for this thread looking forward on your investment goodluck

It is right, if we invest in gambling sites than it is more profitable than use your amount in gambling, Also i know that everyone who are using bitcoin they have a lot of trust on all gambling sites, So it is really good to do investment wise with bitcoin in gambling sites. Otherwise if we use other sites for investing, than they all are risky and many people are not trust on them, including me. 

Will do agreed with you investment in bankroll is more profitable as we can see above the statics of OP how doing profitable for him, that is good decision to keep us on side of the house because the house know how to make profit in long run.

There is someone review that they are actually making a good profit.. but it is not 100% guarantee and it is still risky if you invest a large amount in ome gambling casino there is no assurane that you can gain a good profit..
But there is already review like betking tha actually making good profit or large profit than the other that actuall yoffering investment.

[tee-rex]

Say you are playing roulette on 2 wheels at the same time and always bet red:
On Wheel 1, you hit 8 reds out of 10.
On Wheel 2, you hit 4 reds out of 10.

You shouldn't quit wheel 2 and play wheel 1 only based on this.

But how do you know that the odds are not skewed favoring more reds than blacks on Wheel 1 and vice versa on Wheel 2? I think after so many spins we will inevitably make our choice in favor of a certain wheel. In regards to casinos, it is not particularly different. You will prefer that casino which gives you most profits, and unlike roulette, the chances that the "odds" are really "skewed" in favor of that casino are higher.

[TOPBTCCASINOS]

4 months and 2 weeks now and we have added KingDice to our investments (took 1 Bitcoin out of Crypto-Games).

It is going to be interesting to see how KingDice goes. Thanks for adding it to the list.

If it does alright after a month or so I will invest there too.