My Beef with BFL (Constructive Criticism Only)

[Frankie Delaney]

I've read your posts; and I'll say at the very least I agree with the original post in this thread.  My axe grinding comment was directed at a few others who continually post misleading and twisted statements as truth across multiple threads.

This post in particular pretty much sums up my suspicions:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159104.msg1681314#msg1681314

What about that post is twisted or misleading?

Sorry; I'm trying to say I agree with what you've said. I'll reword that...

you'd better 

[smoothie]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

[nuclear]

I've read your posts; and I'll say at the very least I agree with the original post in this thread.  My axe grinding comment was directed at a few others who continually post misleading and twisted statements as truth across multiple threads.

This post in particular pretty much sums up my suspicions:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159104.msg1681314#msg1681314

What about that post is twisted or misleading?

Sorry; I'm trying to say I agree with what you've said. I'll reword that...

you'd better 

That better?  Two separate thoughts kinda merged there...when this thread originally started I read your list and said to myself... "Nailed it."

[johnniewalker]

I fear that the BFL "scandal" if you want to call it that has the potential to seriously hurt the bitcoin community-in a similar way (but hopefully smaller-scale) a government sanction against bitcoins would.

[RoboCoder]

Just saw bits and pieces of a conversation josh was having on bfl forum about the problem they are having about power being too much and heat problems i guess.

Said they will be putting up a video of a working unit soon - implied tomorrow but didnt see the actual shout.

I saw a thing where josh said if they missing their power target they would donate 1000 BTC to charity.. I only say this because i run an animal rescue group and would love to be the recipient of this...

[Beans]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

Now that they have a working protype I guess you better change that sig.

[Entropy-uc]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

Now that they have a working protype I guess you better change that sig.

Why?  They still haven't shipped.  When people who paid 9 months ago are getting their gear, AND it works as promised, it's time to change that signature.

[Syke]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

Now that they have a working protype I guess you better change that sig.

No video? No working prototype.

[Beans]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

Now that they have a working protype I guess you better change that sig.

No video? No working prototype.

It should be up tomorrow. They wouldn't lie about it unless they were in a hurry to get refund requests.

[Beans]

I saw the BFL ad saying it might be a scam. Worthy investment OP.

Look at my sig lol 

Now that they have a working protype I guess you better change that sig.

Why?  They still haven't shipped.  When people who paid 9 months ago are getting their gear, AND it works as promised, it's time to change that signature.

Claiming they have no evidence after they post a video would just devalues anything else you claim.

[polrpaul]

Would like to see SCAMMER TAG added to ALL BFL employees

That is not what I would call constructive.  Deleting your post. 

I think the poster has a point.   A company that is so far behind in promises and make further promises repeatedly and are still taking people's money with ship dates promised out two months should be considered a scammer.   Why that offends your sense of fairness eludes me.   Even if they are working hard to produce the units paid for 9 months ago, their current actions of "order now" and giving new promises which we know not to be true, would qualify them to be labeled as a scammer.

His criticism is constructive.   when you have screwed up, you should stop collecting people's money until you can actually physically deliver what you overpromised many times before.

Agreed, perhaps the point was not backed up with constructive criticism, but the request is clear and coming from the community. Who supports this?
 
Give BFL X days to prove itself or give them the Scammer Tag and stop advertising their "Order Now - initial shipping scheduled for the last half of March 2013" crap.

Believe me, I want to like them, but how long does it take for a scam to be revealed? It's always "2 weeks from now"..

[Bicknellski]

Everyone is in this for money of some sort.   We all want it to spread and work but greed is also driving miners, not altruism.    So, I do not know why you hate BFL so much.   I LOVE THEM.   They take (and continue to take) tens of millions of dollars from suckers and people who are too blind from greed, to put one plus one together.   What you say Inaba or Josh or whatever you wish to call yourself?   Would you invest 20 Million dollars in a company run by a person that is a CONVICTED FELON and cannot leave the state of MO and seconded by a mouthpiece with a third rate education that JUST "by coincidence" goes by the same name (and lives in the same state) as a sorry assed loser that was stealing from directTV?   Come on, explain this to me.   You think Sequoia or Benchmark would finance losers like that?

Well, you all did.   And I am laughing my ass off at you all.   Thanks for keeping the difficulty low for me and all the people with half a brain that can use google to do a background search on people before giving them the equivalent of "venture capital".

There is a saying "pigs feed, but hogs get slaughtered".   you all have financed some pigs that have now become hogs by continuing to take more and more money.   what are you going to do about it?   Nothing?   I thought so.   you got what you deserved.  you all bought a lottery ticket from the dude on the corner......    ironic isn't it?

+1

Yup.

[wtfvanity]

Just saw bits and pieces of a conversation josh was having on bfl forum about the problem they are having about power being too much and heat problems i guess.

Said they will be putting up a video of a working unit soon - implied tomorrow but didnt see the actual shout.

I saw a thing where josh said if they missing their power target they would donate 1000 BTC to charity.. I only say this because i run an animal rescue group and would love to be the recipient of this...

The statement about power being too much is vague. It's using too much power? Or they are giving it too much power? Sounds like it is using too much power and they can't get enough hashing based on the statement he posted:

We've been tracking down a power issue these last few days and have it isolated to a few key systems. In the interest of time, we are planning on potentially scaling back units hashing speed as required to accommodate the extra power and shipping multiple units to those that want their units right now. If would would prefer to wait for a unit after we've made some changes to the systems that need a bit of tweaking, we will be happy to put your shipment on hold.

It would be nice for him to spell check before announcements. It would also be nice to have some proof that these developments are truthful which still isn't clear.

Too bad he doesn't have a smart phone to post a video. I don't know about you, but on the Samsung Note II, I click the camera. Switch it to video, click record. When I'm done, I click the share button and upload it to my youtube account. Outside of the actual video taking it takes a whole 30 extra seconds.

Obviously since he didn't have time to spell check, he wouldn't have thirty seconds to upload a video of the vaporware.

Better pretend things are working so that people stop asking for refunds. This thread is probably hurting their preorders.

[vortex1878]

I care about bitcoins and frankly even though I have  asics on order the problem is not bfl asicminer or avalon.  It is the bitcoin developers they allowed this to happen by allowing preorder system.  They simply could have banned asics until a seller had them built.  Instead they put all the risk on the miners.

Can you elaborate this statement, please? How exactly could the bitcoin developers have banned any specific payments or mining devices?

[Frankie Delaney]

Let's just add to the list.

Chip Geek: We need a few in the hands of customers before April 1 for the bitbet wager...

BFL_Josh: I know Chip Geek, I'm going to try to ship out a unit ,at least one, before APril first if it's at all possible.

BFL_Josh: Imma pull an Avalon all the way, it's a proven method!

BFL_Josh: Yes, I'm aware that Bitcointalk trolls will have a field day with everything I've just said. Heh. Even a broken power regulator and a bad power brick is still better than an Avalon

[Dalkore]

Let's just add to the list.

Chip Geek: We need a few in the hands of customers before April 1 for the bitbet wager...

BFL_Josh: I know Chip Geek, I'm going to try to ship out a unit ,at least one, before APril first if it's at all possible.

BFL_Josh: Imma pull an Avalon all the way, it's a proven method!

BFL_Josh: Yes, I'm aware that Bitcointalk trolls will have a field day with everything I've just said. Heh. Even a broken power regulator and a bad power brick is still better than an Avalon

A broken unit is better than a Avalon.  Wow, that is a heap of respect for your competitors.   I can't wait to support this type of attitude.  They really did hire the "perfect" PR person to handle company communications.  Good job Butterfly Labs.   

[philipma1957]

I care about bitcoins and frankly even though I have  asics on order the problem is not bfl asicminer or avalon.  It is the bitcoin developers they allowed this to happen by allowing preorder system.  They simply could have banned asics until a seller had them built.  Instead they put all the risk on the miners.

Can you elaborate this statement, please? How exactly could the bitcoin developers have banned any specific payments or mining devices?

   Sure when bfl posted back in june the developers could have simply said no unit that hashes over  29Gh will work at bit mining. Until said developer shows working prototype all workers are capped at 30Gh.
  At the time I think some Fpga rigs could do  25 to 27Gh. This would have forced builders to build the rigs first since they won't be allowed to work unless tested.  Capping a worker at 25 or 30  or 40 Gh should be simple to do.  Now the network is in the hands of a few rather then many. 

 This would have  meant buying an asic  from bfl back in june would be far less attractive then it was.  Buying an asic is still crazy stupid hard to do (if buying means getting it in a week or less) and that is really bad for bitcoin.

 Frankly I have 78GH (2x little singles + 2x jalapeños)  on order from BFL I don't expect to ever see it  , but I will get my money back since the orders are paypal. I will just get a refund every 40 days then order a week later.  So far I have done this twice. 

Basically take a good look at Avalon's actions They have sent out emails saying they are developing a mining farm and delaying the second batch along with the third batch getting a crazy price raise. There actions are bad as BFL's in every way except for the lucky 300.  The point I am making is asic's or the lack of the ability to buy them is going to kill bitcoins.  That is on the bitcoin program team not avalon not bfl and not asciminer. Since a 30 or 60 day ban on all workers with 30gh hash power would once again spread the network out instead of having a hand full of people or groups with most of the hash power.

[Dalkore]

I care about bitcoins and frankly even though I have  asics on order the problem is not bfl asicminer or avalon.  It is the bitcoin developers they allowed this to happen by allowing preorder system.  They simply could have banned asics until a seller had them built.  Instead they put all the risk on the miners.

Can you elaborate this statement, please? How exactly could the bitcoin developers have banned any specific payments or mining devices?

   Sure when bfl posted back in june the developers could have simply said no unit that hashes over  29Gh will work at bit mining. Until said developer shows working prototype all workers are capped at 30Gh.
  At the time I think some Fpga rigs could do  25 to 27Gh. This would have forced builders to build the rigs first since they won't be allowed to work unless tested.  Capping a worker at 25 or 30  or 40 Gh should be simple to do.  Now the network is in the hands of a few rather then many. 

 This would have  meant buying an asic  from bfl back in june would be far less attractive then it was.  Buying an asic is still crazy stupid hard to do (if buying means getting it in a week or less) and that is really bad for bitcoin.

 Frankly I have 78GH (2x little singles + 2x jalapeños)  on order from BFL I don't expect to ever see it  , but I will get my money back since the orders are paypal. I will just get a refund every 40 days then order a week later.  So far I have done this twice. 

Basically take a good look at Avalon's actions They have sent out emails saying they are developing a mining farm and delaying the second batch along with the third batch getting a crazy price raise. There actions are bad as BFL's in every way except for the lucky 300.  The point I am making is asic's or the lack of the ability to buy them is going to kill bitcoins.  That is on the bitcoin program team not avalon not bfl and not asciminer. Since a 30 or 60 day ban on all workers with 30gh hash power would once again spread the network out instead of having a hand full of people or groups with most of the hash power.

Don't you think the Batch #2 & #3 delay was communicated, and they said in April, Avalon will ship both batches.  They have stuck close enough to schedule up to this point for us to give them the benefit of doubt.  I think that your not being fair compared to your two alternatives. 

I do not advocate an arbitrary ban on mining.  This sets a counter-productive precedent to the future management of the network.  People do not want power influenced in that manner.  In Bitcoin, you truly do vote with your coins.

Dalkore

[jedunnigan]

I care about bitcoins and frankly even though I have  asics on order the problem is not bfl asicminer or avalon.  It is the bitcoin developers they allowed this to happen by allowing preorder system.  They simply could have banned asics until a seller had them built.  Instead they put all the risk on the miners.

Can you elaborate this statement, please? How exactly could the bitcoin developers have banned any specific payments or mining devices?

   Sure when bfl posted back in june the developers could have simply said no unit that hashes over  29Gh will work at bit mining. Until said developer shows working prototype all workers are capped at 30Gh.
  At the time I think some Fpga rigs could do  25 to 27Gh. This would have forced builders to build the rigs first since they won't be allowed to work unless tested.  Capping a worker at 25 or 30  or 40 Gh should be simple to do.  Now the network is in the hands of a few rather then many. 

 This would have  meant buying an asic  from bfl back in june would be far less attractive then it was.  Buying an asic is still crazy stupid hard to do (if buying means getting it in a week or less) and that is really bad for bitcoin.

 Frankly I have 78GH (2x little singles + 2x jalapeños)  on order from BFL I don't expect to ever see it  , but I will get my money back since the orders are paypal. I will just get a refund every 40 days then order a week later.  So far I have done this twice. 

Basically take a good look at Avalon's actions They have sent out emails saying they are developing a mining farm and delaying the second batch along with the third batch getting a crazy price raise. There actions are bad as BFL's in every way except for the lucky 300.  The point I am making is asic's or the lack of the ability to buy them is going to kill bitcoins.  That is on the bitcoin program team not avalon not bfl and not asciminer. Since a 30 or 60 day ban on all workers with 30gh hash power would once again spread the network out instead of having a hand full of people or groups with most of the hash power.

I do not advocate an arbitrary ban on mining.  This sets a counter-productive precedent to the future management of the network.  People do not want power influenced in that manner.  In Bitcoin, you truly do vote with your coins.

Dalkore

I agree... plus it is a very slippery slope. One must tread with caution in that conversation. If the bitcoin network was under attack by malevolent parties one might consider addressing such a bottom-up approach to curbing the damage. Barring that, its a very bad idea.

And for all intensive purposes the introduction of ASIC miners (no matter how poorly executed by manufacturers) is not an attack on the system per se.

[Entropy-uc]

Basically take a good look at Avalon's actions They have sent out emails saying they are developing a mining farm and delaying the second batch along with the third batch getting a crazy price raise. There actions are bad as BFL's in every way except for the lucky 300.  The point I am making is asic's or the lack of the ability to buy them is going to kill bitcoins.  That is on the bitcoin program team not avalon not bfl and not asciminer. Since a 30 or 60 day ban on all workers with 30gh hash power would once again spread the network out instead of having a hand full of people or groups with most of the hash power.

^This 100%

BitCoin Devs should change algo to destroy those greedy motherf*ckers. All of them.

Nonsense.  They aren't being greedy.  They are selling their product with a 30 day ROI price point.  That is a gift.  It would be nice if they could find a way to make a product that could be priced closer to an enthusiast graphics card so ASICs could be more widely distributed, but that isn't Avalons fault.

ASICs are a net benefit as it is harder to attack the network now.  ASICMiner is troublesome in terms of their market share, but hopefully they will be responsible and start selling hardware rather than growing their farm from where it is.

And ASICs hold nearly 50% of hashpower already.  Good luck putting in place a change that harms their owners.