[CLOSED] MtRed (PPS, LP+, API, 0 FEE) STRATUM on mine.mtred.com:3333

[Graet]

I just feel the need to point out that the stats I calculated (at a MtRed miner's request) about MtRed showed that, as of not long ago, they would have had about a 1500 BTC buffer at that time.  MtRed luck has not been bad enough to drain a 1500 BTC buffer at the difficulties we've been at lately.  And there were only a few (6?) orphaned blocks in that time period.

To me, it seems more likely that the pool cashed out while the USD price was high, no?  Hell of a coincidence that the pool closes the day the price reaches an all time high? Either that or cashed out a while back and didn't have a buffer anymore. No way to know, since that data isn't really public.

But, all and all, I hope people don't give too much praise here.  Feel free to run the numbers yourself.

-wk

Did you maybe include NMC blocks?

Edit:
FWIW, taking out NMC and accounting for orphans, I get a positive buffer of ~ 295btc.

Did rr pay server fees himself? or did it come out of the BTC?
I remember selling BTC at $5 (50 of them one time to pay a $250 bill, day before yesterday 1BTC would have covered that bill) to help pay my server fees..... if you don't factor that stuff in the "stats I calculated" don't really mean much imo...

[organofcorti]

I just feel the need to point out that the stats I calculated (at a MtRed miner's request) about MtRed showed that, as of not long ago, they would have had about a 1500 BTC buffer at that time.  MtRed luck has not been bad enough to drain a 1500 BTC buffer at the difficulties we've been at lately.  And there were only a few (6?) orphaned blocks in that time period.

To me, it seems more likely that the pool cashed out while the USD price was high, no?  Hell of a coincidence that the pool closes the day the price reaches an all time high? Either that or cashed out a while back and didn't have a buffer anymore. No way to know, since that data isn't really public.

But, all and all, I hope people don't give too much praise here.  Feel free to run the numbers yourself.

-wk

Did you maybe include NMC blocks?

Edit:
FWIW, taking out NMC and accounting for orphans, I get a positive buffer of ~ 295btc.

Did rr pay server fees himself? or did it come out of the BTC?
I remember selling BTC at $5 (50 of them one time to pay a $250 bill, day before yesterday 1BTC would have covered that bill) to help pay my server fees..... if you don't factor that stuff in the "stats I calculated" don't really mean much imo...

Pool op is only supposed to use his own money and donations/fees to pay server costs, not the buffer.

Saying the pool is bankrupt when there's supposed to be a positive buffer is either:
1. A poor explanation if redditorrex actually meant that *he* had run out of donation money to run the pool servers;
2. redditorrex was using buffer money to cover server costs with intention of paying back later.

Either way, this is why we don't find more zero fee pps pools.


Edit Sorry graet, sounded a bit harsher than I wanted it to. But although I feel for redditorrex and I think he's a standup guy, this could all have been avoided if he'd charged a fee - better yet, a fee and split the pool like Ozcoin.

I get a bit pissed at miners using a 0% PPS pool and then getting all whiney when it goes bankrupt. I and lots of others (you included) have been warning all and sundry about the dangers of zero fee pools in general, let alone a zero fee PPS pool, for a good while.

 Edit 2: I'll have to redo my stats anyway - I was counting from when the pool started, not when it changed to PPS.

[organofcorti]

Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc

redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts?

[wizkid057]

Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc

redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts?

Not sure what you're using for your stats, but, mine are run from the first block listed to 02/06/2013... did you account for 50 BTC blocks?

I ran the block heights and given coinbase transaction ids for every block against the blockchain and determined orphaned blocks, subsidy, and such using that data.

Edit: Here is the data used to compile my graphs: http://vpn.wizkid057.com/mtred_block_data_v2.csv ... if I screwed up somewhere, accept my appolgies in advance, however, I do believe the data is sound.

[organofcorti]

Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc

redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts?

Not sure what you're using for your stats, but, mine are run from the first block listed to 02/06/2013... did you account for 50 BTC blocks?

I ran the block heights and given coinbase transaction ids for every block against the blockchain and determined orphaned blocks, subsidy, and such using that data.

Edit: Here is the data used to compile my graphs: http://vpn.wizkid057.com/mtred_block_data_v2.csv ... if I screwed up somewhere, accept my appolgies in advance, however, I do believe the data is sound.

I can see what you've done, I think. You've included all blocks from the start of the pool. But MTRED was only PPS from 12th October 2012 (edit:2011, dammit! Now I have to do over grumbles). Prior to that it was Proportional, and so you can't include that time when you're calculating the buffer.

[organofcorti]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

[wizkid057]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

[organofcorti]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.

[wizkid057]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.

As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right...

[organofcorti]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.

As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right...

Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same.

Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg:

My dataset:

Code:

     timestamp  shares difficulty   amount orphan    buffer
165 1311026854  621401    1563028 50.13674      0 301.86576
166 1311065220 2810450    1563028 50.10101      0 261.88112
167 1311067565  236270    1563028 50.01450      0 304.33534
168 1311223958 9686912    1690896 50.00550      0  67.86614
169 1311269109 2770041    1690896 50.01400      0  35.94674
170 1311272103  270857    1690896 50.02950      1  27.93274
171 1311287350 1074074    1690896 50.08295      0  46.20250
172 1311326567 2407824    1690896 50.03550      0  24.98779
173 1311356721 1998726    1690896 50.12313      0  15.86280
174 1311372823 1041527    1690896 50.07450      0  35.09333
175 1311377806  409263    1690896 50.01850      0  73.00539

Your dataset:

Code:

         epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer
165 1311026854    1563028     621401    50.13674       Yes  301.86579
166 1311065220    1563028    2810450    50.10101       Yes  261.88116
167 1311067565    1563028     236270    50.01450       Yes  304.33538
168 1311223958    1690896    9686912    50.00550       Yes   67.86618
169 1311269109    1690896    2770041    50.01400       Yes   35.94678
170 1311272103    1690896     270857    50.02950   Invalid   77.96228
171 1311287350    1690896    1074074    50.08295       Yes   96.23204
172 1311326567    1690896    2407824    50.03550       Yes   75.01733
173 1311356721    1690896    1998726    50.12313       Yes   65.89234
174 1311372823    1690896    1041527    50.07450       Yes   85.12287
175 1311377806    1690896     409263    50.01850       Yes  123.03493

[eroxors]

Thanks for the hard work in maintaining/developing this fine pool. Sad to see it go.

[wizkid057]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.

As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right...

Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same.

Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg:

My dataset:

Code:

     timestamp  shares difficulty   amount orphan    buffer
165 1311026854  621401    1563028 50.13674      0 301.86576
166 1311065220 2810450    1563028 50.10101      0 261.88112
167 1311067565  236270    1563028 50.01450      0 304.33534
168 1311223958 9686912    1690896 50.00550      0  67.86614
169 1311269109 2770041    1690896 50.01400      0  35.94674
170 1311272103  270857    1690896 50.02950      1  27.93274
171 1311287350 1074074    1690896 50.08295      0  46.20250
172 1311326567 2407824    1690896 50.03550      0  24.98779
173 1311356721 1998726    1690896 50.12313      0  15.86280
174 1311372823 1041527    1690896 50.07450      0  35.09333
175 1311377806  409263    1690896 50.01850      0  73.00539

Your dataset:

Code:

         epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer
165 1311026854    1563028     621401    50.13674       Yes  301.86579
166 1311065220    1563028    2810450    50.10101       Yes  261.88116
167 1311067565    1563028     236270    50.01450       Yes  304.33538
168 1311223958    1690896    9686912    50.00550       Yes   67.86618
169 1311269109    1690896    2770041    50.01400       Yes   35.94678
170 1311272103    1690896     270857    50.02950   Invalid   77.96228
171 1311287350    1690896    1074074    50.08295       Yes   96.23204
172 1311326567    1690896    2407824    50.03550       Yes   75.01733
173 1311356721    1690896    1998726    50.12313       Yes   65.89234
174 1311372823    1690896    1041527    50.07450       Yes   85.12287
175 1311377806    1690896     409263    50.01850       Yes  123.03493

*facepalm*

Looks like a typo in my code that let them get tallied. I will recalculate when I get home. Your estimate still seems low.. . Sorry folks.

[purelithium]

@wizkid057 and organofcorti

Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.

I don't see the problem.

[wizkid057]

@wizkid057 and organofcorti

Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.

I don't see the problem.

Based on my initial data, it seemed appropriate to mention that the reasoning didn't fit the data.

organofcorti actually appears to not be on my side anyway. after correcting my data I may not be on my side either. Lol

[Luke-Jr]

Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.

Side note: A mtred user on IRC was complaining that apparently they aren't paying shares found after the last block, and that he was unable to withdraw his full balance...

[redditorrex]

The current round that tipped the %50 rule will be credited, i just want to reflect it in the rewards table. Been busy, but I will probably get to it after work tonight.

[arklan]

Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.

Side note: A mtred user on IRC was complaining that apparently they aren't paying shares found after the last block, and that he was unable to withdraw his full balance...

yet. he was unable to withdraw his full balance YET. as expected.

[wizkid057]

OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk!

MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc.

data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP

Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive...

Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?

Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.

As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right...

Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same.

Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg:

My dataset:

Code:

     timestamp  shares difficulty   amount orphan    buffer
165 1311026854  621401    1563028 50.13674      0 301.86576
166 1311065220 2810450    1563028 50.10101      0 261.88112
167 1311067565  236270    1563028 50.01450      0 304.33534
168 1311223958 9686912    1690896 50.00550      0  67.86614
169 1311269109 2770041    1690896 50.01400      0  35.94674
170 1311272103  270857    1690896 50.02950      1  27.93274
171 1311287350 1074074    1690896 50.08295      0  46.20250
172 1311326567 2407824    1690896 50.03550      0  24.98779
173 1311356721 1998726    1690896 50.12313      0  15.86280
174 1311372823 1041527    1690896 50.07450      0  35.09333
175 1311377806  409263    1690896 50.01850      0  73.00539

Your dataset:

Code:

         epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer
165 1311026854    1563028     621401    50.13674       Yes  301.86579
166 1311065220    1563028    2810450    50.10101       Yes  261.88116
167 1311067565    1563028     236270    50.01450       Yes  304.33538
168 1311223958    1690896    9686912    50.00550       Yes   67.86618
169 1311269109    1690896    2770041    50.01400       Yes   35.94678
170 1311272103    1690896     270857    50.02950   Invalid   77.96228
171 1311287350    1690896    1074074    50.08295       Yes   96.23204
172 1311326567    1690896    2407824    50.03550       Yes   75.01733
173 1311356721    1690896    1998726    50.12313       Yes   65.89234
174 1311372823    1690896    1041527    50.07450       Yes   85.12287
175 1311377806    1690896     409263    50.01850       Yes  123.03493

*facepalm*

Looks like a typo in my code that let them get tallied. I will recalculate when I get home. Your estimate still seems low.. . Sorry folks.

@organofcorti - Corrected my data to account for invalids. Our datas now match within rounding error up until block height 195530 @ 1345848076, which your data is missing entirely.

[organofcorti]

@organofcorti - Corrected my data to account for invalids. Our datas now match within rounding error up until block height 195530 @ 1345848076, which your data is missing entirely.

MTRED's data:

Code:

chain      hash                   timestamp      duration         amount        shares   confirmed 
BTC	b42aa431...17dc027d	1345848076	-1h-3m-29s	50.4055501	0	Yes

That's block 195530. No shares submitted, so a sanity check killed that round. I'd remove it from your data entirely.

[organofcorti]

@wizkid057 and organofcorti

Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.

I don't see the problem.

Based on my initial data, it seemed appropriate to mention that the reasoning didn't fit the data.

organofcorti actually appears to not be on my side anyway. after correcting my data I may not be on my side either. Lol

Yes, no witch hunt. I thought wizkid057's comment was fair enough - if someone's claiming to have been bankrupt by a negative buffer, then that should be checked. If MTRED did have a huge positive buffer, then redditorrex's explanation would have been false, implying he was using buffer to pay for server costs. That would have cast some doubt on whether or not he will fulfill his obligations.

AFAIK MTRED had a small negative buffer at the time the pool closed.