Graet
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April 12, 2013, 08:32:39 AM |
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I just feel the need to point out that the stats I calculated (at a MtRed miner's request) about MtRed showed that, as of not long ago, they would have had about a 1500 BTC buffer at that time. MtRed luck has not been bad enough to drain a 1500 BTC buffer at the difficulties we've been at lately. And there were only a few (6?) orphaned blocks in that time period. To me, it seems more likely that the pool cashed out while the USD price was high, no? Hell of a coincidence that the pool closes the day the price reaches an all time high? Either that or cashed out a while back and didn't have a buffer anymore. No way to know, since that data isn't really public. But, all and all, I hope people don't give too much praise here. Feel free to run the numbers yourself. -wk Did you maybe include NMC blocks? Edit:
FWIW, taking out NMC and accounting for orphans, I get a positive buffer of ~ 295btc. Did rr pay server fees himself? or did it come out of the BTC? I remember selling BTC at $5 (50 of them one time to pay a $250 bill, day before yesterday 1BTC would have covered that bill) to help pay my server fees..... if you don't factor that stuff in the "stats I calculated" don't really mean much imo...
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 08:56:24 AM Last edit: April 12, 2013, 09:11:47 AM by organofcorti |
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I just feel the need to point out that the stats I calculated (at a MtRed miner's request) about MtRed showed that, as of not long ago, they would have had about a 1500 BTC buffer at that time. MtRed luck has not been bad enough to drain a 1500 BTC buffer at the difficulties we've been at lately. And there were only a few (6?) orphaned blocks in that time period. To me, it seems more likely that the pool cashed out while the USD price was high, no? Hell of a coincidence that the pool closes the day the price reaches an all time high? Either that or cashed out a while back and didn't have a buffer anymore. No way to know, since that data isn't really public. But, all and all, I hope people don't give too much praise here. Feel free to run the numbers yourself. -wk Did you maybe include NMC blocks? Edit:
FWIW, taking out NMC and accounting for orphans, I get a positive buffer of ~ 295btc. Did rr pay server fees himself? or did it come out of the BTC? I remember selling BTC at $5 (50 of them one time to pay a $250 bill, day before yesterday 1BTC would have covered that bill) to help pay my server fees..... if you don't factor that stuff in the "stats I calculated" don't really mean much imo... Pool op is only supposed to use his own money and donations/fees to pay server costs, not the buffer. Saying the pool is bankrupt when there's supposed to be a positive buffer is either: 1. A poor explanation if redditorrex actually meant that *he* had run out of donation money to run the pool servers; 2. redditorrex was using buffer money to cover server costs with intention of paying back later. Either way, this is why we don't find more zero fee pps pools. Edit Sorry graet, sounded a bit harsher than I wanted it to. But although I feel for redditorrex and I think he's a standup guy, this could all have been avoided if he'd charged a fee - better yet, a fee and split the pool like Ozcoin. I get a bit pissed at miners using a 0% PPS pool and then getting all whiney when it goes bankrupt. I and lots of others (you included) have been warning all and sundry about the dangers of zero fee pools in general, let alone a zero fee PPS pool, for a good while. Edit 2: I'll have to redo my stats anyway - I was counting from when the pool started, not when it changed to PPS.
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 09:19:03 AM |
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Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoEVuH4q.png&t=665&c=wXO2_72m3vDjcw)
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wizkid057
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April 12, 2013, 09:46:47 AM |
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Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoEVuH4q.png&t=665&c=wXO2_72m3vDjcw) Not sure what you're using for your stats, but, mine are run from the first block listed to 02/06/2013... did you account for 50 BTC blocks? I ran the block heights and given coinbase transaction ids for every block against the blockchain and determined orphaned blocks, subsidy, and such using that data. Edit: Here is the data used to compile my graphs: http://vpn.wizkid057.com/mtred_block_data_v2.csv ... if I screwed up somewhere, accept my appolgies in advance, however, I do believe the data is sound.
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 10:19:55 AM Last edit: April 12, 2013, 10:36:12 AM by organofcorti |
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Reanalysing the pool stats and placing the start of PPS at 12th October, I put the buffer at -457.47388392 btc redditorex was being quite honest, folks. wizkid057, mind checking your stats and updating your (much more fun with which to play) charts? ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FoEVuH4q.png&t=665&c=wXO2_72m3vDjcw) Not sure what you're using for your stats, but, mine are run from the first block listed to 02/06/2013... did you account for 50 BTC blocks? I ran the block heights and given coinbase transaction ids for every block against the blockchain and determined orphaned blocks, subsidy, and such using that data. Edit: Here is the data used to compile my graphs: http://vpn.wizkid057.com/mtred_block_data_v2.csv ... if I screwed up somewhere, accept my appolgies in advance, however, I do believe the data is sound. I can see what you've done, I think. You've included all blocks from the start of the pool. But MTRED was only PPS from 12th October 2012 (edit:2011, dammit! Now I have to do over grumbles). Prior to that it was Proportional, and so you can't include that time when you're calculating the buffer.
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 10:47:32 AM |
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OK, stats fixed. Sorry folk! MTRED buffer from 12 October 2011 until bankruptcy is -33.68262 btc. data here: http://www.bitbin.it/YsYg9VtP![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDZRhWbv.png&t=665&c=RKNgqrzLmrKyWQ)
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wizkid057
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April 12, 2013, 11:26:02 AM |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much?
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 12:32:18 PM |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much? Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally.
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wizkid057
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April 12, 2013, 01:13:16 PM |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much? Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally. As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right...
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organofcorti
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April 12, 2013, 01:41:25 PM Last edit: April 12, 2013, 02:51:40 PM by organofcorti |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much? Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally. As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right... Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same. Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg: My dataset: timestamp shares difficulty amount orphan buffer 165 1311026854 621401 1563028 50.13674 0 301.86576 166 1311065220 2810450 1563028 50.10101 0 261.88112 167 1311067565 236270 1563028 50.01450 0 304.33534 168 1311223958 9686912 1690896 50.00550 0 67.86614 169 1311269109 2770041 1690896 50.01400 0 35.94674 170 1311272103 270857 1690896 50.02950 1 27.93274 171 1311287350 1074074 1690896 50.08295 0 46.20250 172 1311326567 2407824 1690896 50.03550 0 24.98779 173 1311356721 1998726 1690896 50.12313 0 15.86280 174 1311372823 1041527 1690896 50.07450 0 35.09333 175 1311377806 409263 1690896 50.01850 0 73.00539
Your dataset: epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer 165 1311026854 1563028 621401 50.13674 Yes 301.86579 166 1311065220 1563028 2810450 50.10101 Yes 261.88116 167 1311067565 1563028 236270 50.01450 Yes 304.33538 168 1311223958 1690896 9686912 50.00550 Yes 67.86618 169 1311269109 1690896 2770041 50.01400 Yes 35.94678 170 1311272103 1690896 270857 50.02950 Invalid 77.96228 171 1311287350 1690896 1074074 50.08295 Yes 96.23204 172 1311326567 1690896 2407824 50.03550 Yes 75.01733 173 1311356721 1690896 1998726 50.12313 Yes 65.89234 174 1311372823 1690896 1041527 50.07450 Yes 85.12287 175 1311377806 1690896 409263 50.01850 Yes 123.03493
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eroxors
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April 12, 2013, 02:46:08 PM |
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Thanks for the hard work in maintaining/developing this fine pool. Sad to see it go.
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wizkid057
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April 12, 2013, 06:44:34 PM |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much? Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally. As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right... Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same. Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg: My dataset: timestamp shares difficulty amount orphan buffer 165 1311026854 621401 1563028 50.13674 0 301.86576 166 1311065220 2810450 1563028 50.10101 0 261.88112 167 1311067565 236270 1563028 50.01450 0 304.33534 168 1311223958 9686912 1690896 50.00550 0 67.86614 169 1311269109 2770041 1690896 50.01400 0 35.94674 170 1311272103 270857 1690896 50.02950 1 27.93274 171 1311287350 1074074 1690896 50.08295 0 46.20250 172 1311326567 2407824 1690896 50.03550 0 24.98779 173 1311356721 1998726 1690896 50.12313 0 15.86280 174 1311372823 1041527 1690896 50.07450 0 35.09333 175 1311377806 409263 1690896 50.01850 0 73.00539
Your dataset: epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer 165 1311026854 1563028 621401 50.13674 Yes 301.86579 166 1311065220 1563028 2810450 50.10101 Yes 261.88116 167 1311067565 1563028 236270 50.01450 Yes 304.33538 168 1311223958 1690896 9686912 50.00550 Yes 67.86618 169 1311269109 1690896 2770041 50.01400 Yes 35.94678 170 1311272103 1690896 270857 50.02950 Invalid 77.96228 171 1311287350 1690896 1074074 50.08295 Yes 96.23204 172 1311326567 1690896 2407824 50.03550 Yes 75.01733 173 1311356721 1690896 1998726 50.12313 Yes 65.89234 174 1311372823 1690896 1041527 50.07450 Yes 85.12287 175 1311377806 1690896 409263 50.01850 Yes 123.03493
*facepalm* Looks like a typo in my code that let them get tallied. I will recalculate when I get home. Your estimate still seems low.. . Sorry folks. ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif)
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purelithium
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April 12, 2013, 07:13:35 PM |
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@wizkid057 and organofcorti
Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.
I don't see the problem.
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Like my post? 1H7bfRYh7F89mfmFgsRCdn4awDaUHQmYqY
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wizkid057
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April 12, 2013, 07:20:31 PM |
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@wizkid057 and organofcorti
Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.
I don't see the problem.
Based on my initial data, it seemed appropriate to mention that the reasoning didn't fit the data. organofcorti actually appears to not be on my side anyway. ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) after correcting my data I may not be on my side either. Lol
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Luke-Jr
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April 12, 2013, 07:34:01 PM |
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Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users. Side note: A mtred user on IRC was complaining that apparently they aren't paying shares found after the last block, and that he was unable to withdraw his full balance...
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redditorrex (OP)
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April 12, 2013, 08:19:17 PM |
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The current round that tipped the %50 rule will be credited, i just want to reflect it in the rewards table. Been busy, but I will probably get to it after work tonight.
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Reddit Mining Team - MtRed.com = Pure PPS + #00GH/s + LP(+) + AutoPay&InstaPay + Audio Notifications Find us in #mtred @ irc.freenode.net
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arklan
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April 12, 2013, 08:34:45 PM |
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Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users. Side note: A mtred user on IRC was complaining that apparently they aren't paying shares found after the last block, and that he was unable to withdraw his full balance... yet. he was unable to withdraw his full balance YET. as expected.
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i don't post much, but this space for rent.
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wizkid057
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April 13, 2013, 02:14:00 AM |
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Not home so cant verify your data... but if you take mine and simple set the buffer to 0 when they started PPS then its still almost 1000 BTC positive... Ideas where/how our datas differ so much? Because MTRED didn't start using PPS until 12th October 2011. You're including blocks that were paid proportionally. As I mentioned, if you set the buffer to 0 on that day using my data you still end up with about a 1000 BTC buffer. We both cant be right... Also, your dataset only goes up until 3rd Feb. It doesn't explain all the difference though. I'm still comparing datasets to find the differences. You might want to do the same. Edit: From a quick check it appears you're also neglecting to subtract orphaned blocks. Thats the only other difference I can find so far. eg: My dataset: timestamp shares difficulty amount orphan buffer 165 1311026854 621401 1563028 50.13674 0 301.86576 166 1311065220 2810450 1563028 50.10101 0 261.88112 167 1311067565 236270 1563028 50.01450 0 304.33534 168 1311223958 9686912 1690896 50.00550 0 67.86614 169 1311269109 2770041 1690896 50.01400 0 35.94674 170 1311272103 270857 1690896 50.02950 1 27.93274 171 1311287350 1074074 1690896 50.08295 0 46.20250 172 1311326567 2407824 1690896 50.03550 0 24.98779 173 1311356721 1998726 1690896 50.12313 0 15.86280 174 1311372823 1041527 1690896 50.07450 0 35.09333 175 1311377806 409263 1690896 50.01850 0 73.00539
Your dataset: epoch difficulty sharecount blockreward confirmed poolbuffer 165 1311026854 1563028 621401 50.13674 Yes 301.86579 166 1311065220 1563028 2810450 50.10101 Yes 261.88116 167 1311067565 1563028 236270 50.01450 Yes 304.33538 168 1311223958 1690896 9686912 50.00550 Yes 67.86618 169 1311269109 1690896 2770041 50.01400 Yes 35.94678 170 1311272103 1690896 270857 50.02950 Invalid 77.96228 171 1311287350 1690896 1074074 50.08295 Yes 96.23204 172 1311326567 1690896 2407824 50.03550 Yes 75.01733 173 1311356721 1690896 1998726 50.12313 Yes 65.89234 174 1311372823 1690896 1041527 50.07450 Yes 85.12287 175 1311377806 1690896 409263 50.01850 Yes 123.03493
*facepalm* Looks like a typo in my code that let them get tallied. I will recalculate when I get home. Your estimate still seems low.. . Sorry folks. ![Sad](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/sad.gif) @organofcorti - Corrected my data to account for invalids. Our datas now match within rounding error up until block height 195530 @ 1345848076, which your data is missing entirely.
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organofcorti
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April 13, 2013, 03:05:21 AM |
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@organofcorti - Corrected my data to account for invalids. Our datas now match within rounding error up until block height 195530 @ 1345848076, which your data is missing entirely.
MTRED's data: chain hash timestamp duration amount shares confirmed BTC b42aa431...17dc027d 1345848076 -1h-3m-29s 50.4055501 0 Yes
That's block 195530. No shares submitted, so a sanity check killed that round. I'd remove it from your data entirely.
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organofcorti
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April 13, 2013, 03:13:29 AM |
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@wizkid057 and organofcorti
Why the witch-hunt? He's decided to shut down the pool. He's planning on paying users.
I don't see the problem.
Based on my initial data, it seemed appropriate to mention that the reasoning didn't fit the data. organofcorti actually appears to not be on my side anyway. ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) after correcting my data I may not be on my side either. Lol Yes, no witch hunt. I thought wizkid057's comment was fair enough - if someone's claiming to have been bankrupt by a negative buffer, then that should be checked. If MTRED did have a huge positive buffer, then redditorrex's explanation would have been false, implying he was using buffer to pay for server costs. That would have cast some doubt on whether or not he will fulfill his obligations. AFAIK MTRED had a small negative buffer at the time the pool closed.
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