BFL Update 03-25-2013

[Gator-hex]

"The process to bring a brand new ASIC to life is not as simple as turning it on. The fact that some people think it is, is an indicator that they have never actually done so. There is a lot of testing, poking, prodding and debugging that needs to happen to get a chip up and running and if someone tells you differently, they are incorrect, plain and simple. " BFL-Josh (03-25-2013)

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1448-i-think-its-safe-say-we-need-daily-updates-5.html

...then Mattsdx points out the "someone / some people" who said this...

"These aren't Pentium chips. They either work or they don't and we will know immediately after we turn them on." BFL-Josh (01-30-2013)

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/837-sunday-27-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-7.html#post12276

LOL, owned by his own comment.

[1714979766]

1714979766

[philips]

Oh goody, another BFL thread...boy, we really needed that.

[cedivad]

This scam is getting close to the end.

[Gator-hex]

Oh goody, another BFL thread...boy, we really needed that.

Oh, come on, it was funny!

I don't know if Josh knows it but the customer he's replying to, Davincij15, has invested like BTC 3000 in pre-orders that would have been worth $267,000 at todays price. The guy deserve a factory tour to put his mind at rest at least after that much commitment.

[Zooey]

Oh that is just epic on so many levels.

[Gomeler]

I have zero experience in testing ASICs but I wish somebody that did have experience could step in and explain this process. I would imagine that testing the chips would involve confirming that the logic that was implemented in hardware is yielding the result that you want (1 + 1 = 2). I imagine there are also other tests like voltage and temperature sensitivity(450 MHz requires 1.2v but 425 MHz only requires 1.05v, but if the core temp exceeds 67C it requires 1.15v) but how difficult is this? My understanding is that a BTC implementation in hardware can be simply tested for correctness by feeding in a known input and comparing it to a known output.

If my understandings are correct, BFL could at least have some tangible results such as "We've achieved 2 GH/s per chip and we are working to ramp up to our target of xxx GH/s. Stay tuned for exciting overclocking potential!". Or hell "We've managed to get one of the xxx 'hashing engines' functional and we're tuning things to bin our chips." I know they mentioned a few weeks ago they managed something like 250 MHz, those details are useful and would quell the angry mob.

[philips]

Well, some good news. They think they've found the problem with the test rig. They were able to get the chip spinning with some hand modifications and a few of the engines even ran at 500 MHz. They are going to get some new hardware for the test rig and that should get us what we need by early to mid next week.

Silence since then...(03-20-2013 08:10 PM)

[Gator-hex]

This is an interesting quote...

"I would like to point out the fact that there still isn't any viable competitors in this market place. Avalon has shipped at most 300 units which has taken them 3 months to accomplish - we are geared up to ship that many (and more) per day." BFL-Josh (03-25-2013)

 

[Dalkore]

This is an interesting quote...

"I would like to point out the fact that there still isn't any viable competitors in this market place. Avalon has shipped at most 300 units which has taken them 3 months to accomplish - we are geared up to ship that many (and more) per day." BFL-Josh (03-25-2013)

 

So should we take from this statement, that we should only support BFL ASIC because Avalon isn't viable?   Avalon's shipping 900 units (Batch 1 & 2) and another 500 to make 1400 total.  Is that not viable?  Interesting.

[Dalkore]

If my understandings are correct, BFL could at least have some tangible results such as "We've achieved 2 GH/s per chip and we are working to ramp up to our target of xxx GH/s. Stay tuned for exciting overclocking potential!". Or hell "We've managed to get one of the xxx 'hashing engines' functional and we're tuning things to bin our chips." I know they mentioned a few weeks ago they managed something like 250 MHz, those details are useful and would quell the angry mob.

It would not quell dozen of loud and stupid people who can't see almost epic difference between medium computer case very noisy
machine consuming 600W+ and one that does the same job but fits in a palm, is silent and consumes 60W. Because of those people,
there are no regular updates.

Yes that is the reason

[Frankie Delaney]

If my understandings are correct, BFL could at least have some tangible results such as "We've achieved 2 GH/s per chip and we are working to ramp up to our target of xxx GH/s. Stay tuned for exciting overclocking potential!". Or hell "We've managed to get one of the xxx 'hashing engines' functional and we're tuning things to bin our chips." I know they mentioned a few weeks ago they managed something like 250 MHz, those details are useful and would quell the angry mob.

It would not quell dozen of loud and stupid people who can't see almost epic difference between medium computer case very noisy
machine consuming 600W+ and one that does the same job but fits in a palm, is silent and consumes 60W. Because of those people,
there are no regular updates.

Is the difference that the first one actually exists?

[Frankie Delaney]

2 out of "dozen of loud and stupid people" posted already, that was really quick

Yes, the people who aren't shilling for a vaporware manufacturer are the stupid ones. BFL modified their hashing power and power usage targets to match bASIC's specs. It wasn't "we engineered this device to run at 60gh/s and use 60 watts", it was "bASIC says their machine will run at 60gh/s and 60 watts, so we have to say ours will too". bASIC couldn't deliver, what makes you think BFL can? a die shrink from 110nm to 65nm doesn't give you a 90% drop in power usage, and BFL has proven with their delays that they are nowhere near as capable of engineering a rig as Avalon.

[PuertoLibre]

Well, some good news. They think they've found the problem with the test rig. They were able to get the chip spinning with some hand modifications and a few of the engines even ran at 500 MHz. They are going to get some new hardware for the test rig and that should get us what we need by early to mid next week.

Silence since then...(03-20-2013 08:10 PM)

Silence is normal when there is a proverbial robbery in progress.

I wonder if they can give back every cent they have taken to date. ("IF" they fail)

Worst case scenario, customers are left wondering how to contact BFL about their refund. I propose everyone donate to Micon a quarter to get him to take pictures of what will one day be a husk of a company.

Though PG always says not to count my chickens before they are hatched.

I should say "I hope they succeed" as that will jinx them a bit more.

[donbenosee]

It would not quell dozen of loud and stupid people who can't see almost epic difference between medium computer case very noisy
machine consuming 600W+ and one that does the same job but fits in a palm, is silent and consumes 60W. Because of those people,
there are no regular updates.

A bird in the hand, now matter how much it shits on your wrist, is still far easier to believe in than one that allegedly lives in a theoretical bush.

[PuertoLibre]

Does anyone know who can make great decals for an ASIC? (Avalon of course being the only one available to date!)

[Syke]

Avalon and Single are not in the same category, actualy they are not even close to same category.

So true. Avalons exist and make tons of money. BFL Singles don't exist and make no money.

[PuertoLibre]

I'll quote Josh from BFL, post where he profiled you and alikes perfectly:

"I know some people think it's easy to do what we are doing, and to that I would like to point out the fact that there still isn't any viable competitors
in this market place. Avalon has shipped at most 300 units which has taken them 3 months to accomplish - we are geared up to ship that many (and
more) per day. That kind of volume is not trivial. The lack of viable competitors should be an indication of the fact that this process is not trivial, no
matter how much the piss poor "engineers" and armchair quarterbacks on Bitcointalk want you to believe they know what they are talking about, the
simple fact is: They don't. If they did, they would be multi-millionaires selling you Bitcoin ASICs, and you'd have these amazing product they can
supposedly design from scratch in an afternoon. The fact that they are on Bitcointalk talking about how awesome they are as opposed to selling you
ASICs should be the first clue that they have no idea what they are doing or what they are talking about."

Now go buy Avalons and enjoy them for a while, until network hits few Petahashes or more.

Idiocy.

What he doesn't say:
By the time petahashes hit the bitcoin network, the Avalon and (future shipping) BFL ASICs of 60GH/s or below....will have lost the majority of their profitability.

The big difference is that Avalon users get alot more profitability in the interim. While BFL customers simply lose it in a big dark hole that is the anus of one CSR agent from BFL.

The only scenario where this isn't ultimately true, is where 1) each Bitcoin generated keeps gaining value 2) as difficulty increases and less coin are generated, that value also increases 3) Where the power efficiency savings of a BFL Single (or below) eventually catches up to the Avalons early release and early profitability.

If ANY of the above does not happen....then BFL customers are pretty much screwed. They will be incredibly unlikely to generate the same level of profit as time goes on.

[Frankie Delaney]

2 out of "dozen of loud and stupid people" posted already, that was really quick

Yes, the people who aren't shilling for a vaporware manufacturer are the stupid ones. BFL modified their hashing power and power usage targets to match bASIC's specs. It wasn't "we engineered this device to run at 60gh/s and use 60 watts", it was "bASIC says their machine will run at 60gh/s and 60 watts, so we have to say ours will too". bASIC couldn't deliver, what makes you think BFL can? a die shrink from 110nm to 65nm doesn't give you a 90% drop in power usage, and BFL has proven with their delays that they are nowhere near as capable of engineering a rig as Avalon.

2 out of "dozen of loud and stupid people" posted already, that was really quick

Yes, the people who aren't shilling for a vaporware manufacturer are the stupid ones. BFL modified their hashing power and power usage targets to match bASIC's specs. It wasn't "we engineered this device to run at 60gh/s and use 60 watts", it was "bASIC says their machine will run at 60gh/s and 60 watts, so we have to say ours will too". bASIC couldn't deliver, what makes you think BFL can? a die shrink from 110nm to 65nm doesn't give you a 90% drop in power usage, and BFL has proven with their delays that they are nowhere near as capable of engineering a rig as Avalon.

Avalon and Single are not in the same category, actualy they are not even close to same category. Are you really retarded or just pretending?
What do you actualy know about chip design? Nothing. Same as others in your pathetic forum crawling group, you are lame, frustrated and dumb.

I'll quote Josh from BFL, post where he profiled you and alikes perfectly:

"I know some people think it's easy to do what we are doing, and to that I would like to point out the fact that there still isn't any viable competitors
in this market place. Avalon has shipped at most 300 units which has taken them 3 months to accomplish - we are geared up to ship that many (and
more) per day. That kind of volume is not trivial. The lack of viable competitors should be an indication of the fact that this process is not trivial, no
matter how much the piss poor "engineers" and armchair quarterbacks on Bitcointalk want you to believe they know what they are talking about, the
simple fact is: They don't. If they did, they would be multi-millionaires selling you Bitcoin ASICs, and you'd have these amazing product they can
supposedly design from scratch in an afternoon. The fact that they are on Bitcointalk talking about how awesome they are as opposed to selling you
ASICs should be the first clue that they have no idea what they are doing or what they are talking about."

Now go buy Avalons and enjoy them for a while, until network hits few Petahashes or more.

This josh fellow sounds impartial and trustworthy. let's analyze what he has said.

I know some people think it's easy to do what we are doing, and to that I would like to point out the fact that there still isn't any viable competitors
in this market place. Avalon has shipped at most 300 units which has taken them 3 months to accomplish

And in 9 months, BFL has shipped at most 0 units. If avalon isn't viable because it took 3 months to get 300 units out the door, what does that make BFL?

we are geared up to ship that many (and more) per day.

If they got their maximum theoretical number of chips out of each wafer, and every chip is perfect, they can build 25 minirigs or 625 singles with it. So what, they're going to build every unit they can with every chip they have in a day, and then what? does their 300 unit per day output only count on the one day they ship product? Even if they do ever ship from their first set of wafers, they've shown they can't make it from wafer to running chip within 4 months. Yeah, they might have the physical ability to screw boards into 300 boxes of fans in a day, but that doesn't mean they have the ability to ship 300 units a day, they quite simply aren't capable of producing the number of chips required for that.

The lack of viable competitors should be an indication of the fact that this process is not trivial, no
matter how much the piss poor "engineers" and armchair quarterbacks on Bitcointalk want you to believe they know what they are talking about, the
simple fact is: They don't. If they did, they would be multi-millionaires selling you Bitcoin ASICs, and you'd have these amazing product they can
supposedly design from scratch in an afternoon. The fact that they are on Bitcointalk talking about how awesome they are as opposed to selling you
ASICs should be the first clue that they have no idea what they are doing or what they are talking about."

Here he is right and wrong. Yes, it is hard to produce a working ASIC. No i couldn't do it because i'm an idiot, but just because i couldn't do it doesn't instantly mean they can. Saying nobody else is a viable competitor doesn't suddenly make BFL one. Saying somebody can't do something doesn't immediately mean they can.

Comparing a working, running, proven product to on-paper specs of vaporware is a losers game. If avalon built and shipped their product with the specs it has before BFL announced theirs with the announced specs, 100% of the users here would be screaming scammer, and BFL wouldn't get a cent. They've conned people into believing, and strung them along with fake delivery dates and fake updates to keep money coming in, and prevent refunds from being requested. The worst part is they've built an army of fanboys willing to support their wild claims and bullshit rants.

[PuertoLibre]

Each day Inaba/BFL_Josh keeps your unit in his hands, is one day of ultimately lost profitability.

No one can deny this.

Josh has taken 7 months of profit from his customers.

Be it through ineptitude...or just cause like he says "It is REALLY HARD to do ASICS". (BS)

It ultimately ends with your full range of profit partially disappearing. Full Stop. Period.

[PuertoLibre]

Someone should make a chart with what they would have earned (in hindsight) if they had delivered in October 2012. Then work out how many BitCoins and the USD they lost over time.

That will no doubt give people huge heart attacks....