Skat af bitcoins i DK

[Herodes]

As you're concerned about the details, did you also run a watmeter on the rigs, to ensure that you know how much to deduct for electricity ? What about the hours you've put in as manual labour ? If you have some special skills that will make things easier for you, then this is taxable if used for your own benefit. For example, if a worker does something on his own property in Norway, the tax department might be able to estimate a value of this work, and then charge taxes on it.

So to be 100% in compliance, you should note down all your special skills, and get a stop watch to time all the time you use for everything.

Also, you should take into account any travelling time and expenses used to aquire the mining gear, and mining-clothes you've especially purchased to go along with the enterprise. If you used a Cap, then add that in as well. Also make sure to deduct the bandwidth used for the enterprise, but make sure to only deduct the fraction used for mining, while the other stuff like browsing the news, watching youtube and so on can't be deducted. I'm sure you used some data usage meter along with the watmeter, right ?

Also worth taking into account is the wear and tear on all your mining gear? Did a fan get jammed and you need to replace it ? Tax-deductable! Did you get a spare GFX-card from your neighboor ? Oh dear, then that must be added as benefits, taxable!

Have you also remembered to pay the international cross-border e-commerce tax on speculative foreign investments that was declared a necessity by the Danish government in appliance with EU e-commere regulatives ? What about the fees paid to MtGox and the banks, did you make sure to deduct this ? Did you report the earnings to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Economical affairs as set forth in the Asian digital money transsmitter act of 2009 ?

Have you made absolutely sure that all clothes stored by your wife have been stored in a vacuum enhanced room, to ensure they're not at all contaminated by electrons omitted from the rattling mining gear that might infect chairs, and furniture she will touch in her semi public position? Now, that would be a real problem. At the same time, did you remember to do the hamster dance before officially slipping the tax return in the mailbox, or if you did it online, were you sure to run the hamster dance in accordance with EU regulation 12 chapter 42, paragraph ∞, governing digital pleasurement while filing tax returns ?

I'm not entirely sure you're in compliance at this point, if unsure, I think you should really repeat it all over, or just hire a dedicated mining auditor approved by the Danish Ministry of Finance ! Also, have you remembered to get the bitcoin miner tag tatoo as required by the Virtual Cryptocurrency Mining Approval Act of 2012 ? This is quite important, and unless you adhere to this strict requirement set forth by your government, you will be summoned by the 1st of May and being forced to accept the following tatoo as a sign you're part of the Dark Mining Cult of No Tax Return:

[Zedster]

I am forced to speculate how important the "hamster dance" is too the entire process here.  I am not questioning you expertise in this matter as you seem very articulate in the matter at hand.  Although I would never personally attempt to claim mining expenses from the Danish Skat (To this day it amazes me that this word is also a term of endearment meaning treasure in danish. It means shit in English, seems more appropriate)  I will be preforming the hamster dance on a regular basis now.

Oh and I sadly want BTC tattoo.  Just bought my first physical coin from bitmit.  It's in mail!

/endThreadHijack

[Luno]

LOL, Danish tax is not constitutional voluntary. And I can't have any electricity documentation besides my mining log before my electricity bill arrives. Working a self employed anything does not give you an hourly deductible wager. As a private business owner, you are officially unpaid!

I need the tax women for verifying my accounting method and my documentation before i file my final tax return on Bitcoin related income. Tax reporting is not just, take your best guess on whatever method you like and hope for the best!

I might seem wimpy, but I need it that way. If i lived with my relatives in Sicily, I might have considered family backing to be sufficient as the only defense against taxation backlash.

nice tattoo BTW.

I had all my costs last year with little income, which if reported alone would resulted in: "WTF? you want deductions for Bit... what, you fraud?

Having all the profits this year without deducting last years costs would make me stupid. Deducting costs when you have a positive net result, is not that uncommon an occurrence for the average tax office employee to see in a tax return!

[Zedster]

nice tattoo BTW.

Not Herodes in the tat pic I don't think with Susquerhanna shirt on.  Frikkin Americans have no sense.

[Luno]

nice tattoo BTW.

Not Herodes in the tat pic I don't think with Susquerhanna shirt on.  Frikkin Americans have no sense.

I'm pretty sure too. The sat dish elevation shows that this guy is a lot closer to the equator than any Norwegian.

I'm really not trying to piss people off here, but currency is serious stuff historically, not something a government would debase because of Bitcoin being "interesting".

Issuing a currency as a sovereign state is the ultimate proof of political and economic power. Allowing Bitcoin to be legal as a store of value in your country is at least equal to removing the limit on cash transactions and what you can carry across a border. If the lawmakers really are buying the "the Bitcoin is completely anonymous" part, they would have lost any possibility of financial planning or control if Bitcoin is "legalized" as it is now and the open minded government is now defunct!

Getting guidance about taxation is the small part, when politicians get into this, Hell is gonna change too!

Having a piece of paper as a result of my inquiry might prove beneficial to other than me.

[Malawi]

I had all my costs last year with little income, which if reported alone would resulted in: "WTF? you want deductions for Bit... what, you fraud?

Having all the profits this year without deducting last years costs would make me stupid. Deducting costs when you have a positive net result, is not that uncommon an occurrence for the average tax office employee to see in a tax return!

I'm pretty sure that you can carry over your negative return to next tax-year and deduct it from your earnings then. Here in Noway, I think you can do that with negative income and certain investments for up to three years after the original loss/investment. This is so that when you are over the initial build-up phase, you can then avoid the highest tax-brackets as some of that profit is really the result of your earlier work.

[Luno]

I had all my costs last year with little income, which if reported alone would resulted in: "WTF? you want deductions for Bit... what, you fraud?

Having all the profits this year without deducting last years costs would make me stupid. Deducting costs when you have a positive net result, is not that uncommon an occurrence for the average tax office employee to see in a tax return!

I'm pretty sure that you can carry over your negative return to next tax-year and deduct it from your earnings then. Here in Noway, I think you can do that with negative income and certain investments for up to three years after the original loss/investment. This is so that when you are over the initial build-up phase, you can then avoid the highest tax-brackets as some of that profit is really the result of your earlier work.

I think similar rules apply to me too, but the way I stored them, on GOX, (don't say that's reckless, I know) is surely a foreign assets, money, whatever and that's reportable before the end of the year, even if I only have to file the profits for 2013 next year!

This is a law against not reporting offshore accounts. Actually if Danish Skat choose to view Bitcoins on GOX as "real" money, I could be obliged to pay 10% foreign capital holding tax. That's a lot for nothing, but the rule was made around ten years ago to discourage people placing money in more favorable high interest countries like Cyprus. I need to know that now, not next year.

[altimellem]

Hi all ! 

I am a new member here, and want to start selling bitcoins for cash in Copenhagen.
Now I have been wondering about a few questions along the way, as the bitcoin is strong on anonymity, it would be something my customers surely would hope to get when buying for cash...

Is it a law that I will have to write down identification for each individual who wants to buy bitcoins ?

like someone wants to buy for 20.000 kroner bitcoins will I have to write down who that person is ?

[prophetx]

Hi all ! 

I am a new member here, and want to start selling bitcoins for cash in Copenhagen.
Now I have been wondering about a few questions along the way, as the bitcoin is strong on anonymity, it would be something my customers surely would hope to get when buying for cash...

Is it a law that I will have to write down identification for each individual who wants to buy bitcoins ?

like someone wants to buy for 20.000 kroner bitcoins will I have to write down who that person is ?

i think the answer is it depends on the situation. 

if a friend of mine wanted 1 btc and gave me $100, which I spend buying beers that night... no one is going to care about this.

if you have a place of business and everyday hundreds of people come in to buy something (perhaps 1 btc) then the gov't starts to care.

[altimellem]

I could imagine there would be maybe 5 - 25 deposits, ranging from 2.000 kr to 25.000 kr in a month.

[altimellem]

I guess this is a legal issue I would have to converse with a lawyer.

[prophetx]

I could imagine there would be maybe 5 - 25 deposits, ranging from 2.000 kr to 25.000 kr in a month.

1) it depends on how btc is seen in your country.  i.e., is it a commodity or is it a currency? 

in the USA it's viewed as a currency and therefor anyone doing what you describe has to register as a money exchange and keep track of certain high worth transactions for money laundry reporting purposes.

however, if in your country it is viewed as a commodity, then you likely need look into whether you have to charge VAT on the transaction

[Luno]

Fik svar fra Skat på mit "bindende skriftlige svar". Den korte version: "Vi nægter at svare på noget som helst".

Mine spørgsmål gik på:

Er Bitcoin at betragte som et betalingsmiddel eller en digital vare?

Er en beholdning af Bitcoins en formue her, eller i udlandet?

Er Bitcoin investeringer, her og i udlandet under de gældende finansiel oplysningspligt og skatteregler, kapitalbeskatning?

ETC.

Jeg skal nok komme med et mere uddybende svar her i tråden, incl. hvilke paragraffer de henviser til for at nægte at svare.

Det er muligvis klogt af Skat ikke at bringe sig i en situation hvor de giver en forhåndsgodkendelse til noget der senere bliver vurderet anderledes.

Imidlertid er deres svar er ikke særligt befordrende for Bitcoins vej i Danmark og udelukker seriøse aktører fra at have lyst til at engagere sig her i landet.

Hvorfor vil de ikke røre Bitcoins med en ildtang? Det er nok fordi at det er et emne der kræver politisk stillingtagen, så jeg overvejer at skrive til sådan en!!!

Hvad med din bror Lasse? Kan han være behjælpelig eller evt. forklare om Bitcoin er en mulighed eller trussel med politiske briller, eller simpelthen bare uinteressant på Christiansborg?

[Neuron]

Skal vi ikke lige genoplive denne tråd.

Jeg har tænkt mig at spekulere i bitcoins, men er bange for at blive tævet af Skat.

Er du kommet videre i dine undersøgelser Luno?
Du skal i øvrigt have tak for dit pioner arbejde på skattefronten.

Men, er der noget nyt?

[kseistrup]

Jeg er osse spændt på at høre det udvidede svar...

[runeks]

Jeg melder mig også ind i gruppen af folk interesserede i at høre en uddybning af Skat's svar til Luno.

Beskatning af spekulation i udlandet er 39% af fortjenesten + 10% af indestående ved starten af skatteåret. Hvis du har haft udgifter i løbet af året f.eks. strøm, babysitter, indkøb for egne penge + afskrivning på de 6 fladskærme du købte for at kunne holde øje med bitcointalk og Gox, trækker du det fra inden du betaler de 39%!!!

Kan du henvise mig til den side der forklarer hvad der adskiller "spekulation i udlandet" fra en helt normal indtægt?

Jeg havde indtil videre gået og troet at fortjenester af at sælge bitcoins der er steget i pris bare ville være en normal indkomst, så jeg skulle betale indkomstskat af fortjenesten. Hvordan kan det være det ikke er tilfældet? Er det fordi der er tale om reel spekulation, og ikke om et arbejde som så?

Så vidt jeg har forstået skal der betales indkomstskat af fx dividender på udelandske aktier. Er dette også forkert? Er det i virkeligheden 39%+10%?

Og hvad menes der præcist med "10% af indestående ved starten af skatteåret"?

[kseistrup]

Nu lyder det som om der “snart” sker noget:

• http://politiken.dk/oekonomi/dkoekonomi/ECE2148662/skaebnedag-for-bitcoin-spekulanter-venter-i-slutningen-af-januar/
• http://archive.is/bs9SX (arkiv)

»Skatterådet er blevet anmodet om et bindende svar omkring de skattemæssige forhold for Bitcoins. Forventningen er, at det bliver behandlet inden udgangen af januar og offentliggjort herefter«, lyder meldingen fra Skat, der tidligere forventede, at spørgsmålet ville blive behandlet allerede inden årsskiftet.

Gad vide om det er den samme forespørgsel vi taler om?

[Dansker]

Spændende.

Så kan det være jeg endelig "tør" spekulere i bitcoins, når den skattemæssige side er afklaret.

Følger tråden med interesse, og håber myndighederne finder ud af at beskatte dem så lidt som muligt.

Hvis vi som det første land i verden får helt klare (og lempelige) beskatningsregler for bitcoins, og samtidig ikke kræver alt muligt bureaukrati for at starte en exchange osv, så kunne det gå hen og blive en massiv økonomisk gevinst for landet, hvis alle flokkes hertil for at starte exchanges osv.

[AndersAA]

Så nåede vi ind i februar og skat har stadig ikke ladet høre fra sig *SUK*

[kseistrup]

Er der ikke en tidsfrist på den slags, eller kan SKAT i princippet undlade at svare så længe de vil?