Bitcoin Forum
September 22, 2019, 07:04:43 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: The Starting Of The "Bitcoin Derivative" - What side are you on?  (Read 4802 times)
Bitcoin Computer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 07:18:39 AM
 #1

Is the economy in for another shock,   Could bitcoin be the future.  I have worked with Bloomberg for the last ten years and the talk here is exciting form a trading perspective.  What would happen to the valuations if bitcoin was not considered a currency but rather a commodity. The idea is relatively simple.  If we take the idea that bitcoin will become more popular and mining operations become more prevalent than eventual a wall will be hit.  Does bitcoin actually have a value or is it something that we can hold in the hopes that it will exponentially hit the prices of gold, and if it does how ling will it last.

Monday morning I am sitting down with an investment firm to work out the algorithm to augment and shock this industry.  It is not a currency but rather traded on the fear of lack of other opportunities.  There is a finite time in which it could be profitable.  A derivative will allow the mass majority of people to weigh in on the potential valuation an month, two or three in the future.  A derivative could crush this industry, there are currently no constraints and institutional investors want their piece of the profit with the risk of being stuck with bitcoin potentially negated.  It seems as if the big banks want their cut and a willing to screw all those that are trying to mine coins that have only intrinsic value.  Meaning that bitcoin would have a different value if you could trade it without every having to mine or own any bitcoin.

I would not want to be the one stuck holding the bag, so to speak. depending on the derivative bets , puts and calls these institutional investors are just betting on the future and what the masses think about the product.  Think of it like the Abacus fund from Goldman.  The mortgage holders did not loose their homes during the bet but if you bet incorrectly you could have lost a lot.  The only difference is that you guys are mining and holding a commodity thats value is based not on potential uses but rather on the emotions that have driven you from "mainstream" investment strategies.

If i was to place a bet on a derivative of this nature it would be that the value would collapse the longer that industry existed seeing that the demand of the "product" has no intrinsic value.   

This all may sound crazy to you but at the end of the day there is a recorded history of this

Thanks -

Al - Stock Analyst, M&A Consultant since 97' and the holder of over 7500 BTC
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
1569135883
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1569135883

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1569135883
Reply with quote  #2

1569135883
Report to moderator
Bitcoin Computer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 07:23:58 AM
 #2

Is the economy in for another shock,   Could bitcoin be the future.  I have worked with Bloomberg for the last ten years and the talk here is exciting form a trading perspective.  What would happen to the valuations if bitcoin was not considered a currency but rather a commodity. The idea is relatively simple.  If we take the idea that bitcoin will become more popular and mining operations become more prevalent than eventual a wall will be hit.  Does bitcoin actually have a value or is it something that we can hold in the hopes that it will exponentially hit the prices of gold, and if it does how ling will it last.

Monday morning I am sitting down with an investment firm to work out the algorithm to augment and shock this industry.  It is not a currency but rather traded on the fear of lack of other opportunities.  There is a finite time in which it could be profitable.  A derivative will allow the mass majority of people to weigh in on the potential valuation an month, two or three in the future.  A derivative could crush this industry, there are currently no constraints and institutional investors want their piece of the profit with the risk of being stuck with bitcoin potentially negated.  It seems as if the big banks want their cut and a willing to screw all those that are trying to mine coins that have only intrinsic value.  Meaning that bitcoin would have a different value if you could trade it without every having to mine or own any bitcoin.

I would not want to be the one stuck holding the bag, so to speak. depending on the derivative bets , puts and calls these institutional investors are just betting on the future and what the masses think about the product.  Think of it like the Abacus fund from Goldman.  The mortgage holders did not loose their homes during the bet but if you bet incorrectly you could have lost a lot.  The only difference is that you guys are mining and holding a commodity thats value is based not on potential uses but rather on the emotions that have driven you from "mainstream" investment strategies.

If i was to place a bet on a derivative of this nature it would be that the value would collapse the longer that industry existed seeing that the demand of the "product" has no intrinsic value.  

This all may sound crazy to you but at the end of the day there is a recorded history of this

Thanks -

Al - Stock Analyst, M&A Consultant since 97' and the holder of over 7500 BTC
Damn AL,
I give you a glass of wine and leave you alone at my iMac and look at what you went and did?
Do you want to let them know how you "Short Sell" the Bitcoin.... Al will be joining the Forum soon... Ahhhh Shiiiiiit!
BurtW
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2562
Merit: 1061

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.


View Profile WWW
March 30, 2013, 07:29:20 AM
 #3

FUD

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476
Merit: 250



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 07:30:45 AM
 #4

Quote
To be brief, Bitcoin’s price setting is being hijacked by vested business interests that have little to no concern for the larger Bitcoin community. Going completely against the idea of a decentralized currency, a majority of Bitcoin users mysteriously look in one central direction, mtgox, to tell them what their money is worth. At the same time, mtgox’s price is obviously being manipulated and the price is being kept under its true value. A comment commonly seen in Bitcoin related discussions, usually made by people in the banking/finance sector, is “How do I short this shit?”

peculium.net/2013/03/10/consent-and-the-price-of-bitcoins-in-china/
faisalp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 52
Merit: 0


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 07:35:12 AM
 #5

Al-

What happens when the buyers of btc options want delivery instead of a fiat profit?  The sellers of these options would certainly have to own some bitcoin to fulfill the contract then...where are they going to get it...

There is no physical constraint to delivery of btc...there is no limit as to who is able to take delivery of btc...

I don't have a crude oil storage tank in my backyard to take delivery of crude I buy via options...but I do have a blockchain.info wallet...
BurtW
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2562
Merit: 1061

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.


View Profile WWW
March 30, 2013, 07:38:37 AM
 #6

Quote
A comment commonly seen in Bitcoin related discussions, usually made by people in the banking/finance sector, is “How do I short this shit?”

peculium.net/2013/03/10/consent-and-the-price-of-bitcoins-in-china/
Borrow BTC, sell it, when price goes down, buy back, repay BTC loan, profit.

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
Bitcoin Computer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 07:48:20 AM
 #7

Al-

What happens when the buyers of btc options want delivery instead of a fiat profit?  The sellers of these options would certainly have to own some bitcoin to fulfill the contract then...where are they going to get it...

There is no physical constraint to delivery of btc...there is no limit as to who is able to take delivery of btc...

I don't have a crude oil storage tank in my backyard to take delivery of crude I buy via options...but I do have a blockchain.info wallet...
It's a Derivative, It would trading it on Wall Street. People with bitcoin already are not the target but rather the outside investors that are willing to take the risk,  With a derivative their is no need to take ownership of the commodity rather it is a straight up bet based on the future value the "winner" get paid with the money from the incorrect investors no bitcoin ever needs to trade hands.  it is not about trading bit coin but rather betting on the street.  the only downfall is if the derivative causes bitcoin value to plummet the people currently with bitcoin holdings or mining operations will be the ones loosing the most.  

"Burp" More Wine Please!!!!
Al -
Chet
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 121
Merit: 100


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:08:25 AM
 #8

but but but
There already are 'derivatives' of btc - people have done IPO activities selling stock in bitcoin and you can buy options on bitcoins and bonds and all sorts of stuff.
Mpex (just in case you guys missed it)
faisalp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 52
Merit: 0


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:09:20 AM
 #9

you didn't answer the question...I know it's a derivative that would trade on wall street....I asked what happens if buyers of btc calls, for example, actually want delivery of btc instead of settlement in fiat?
Bitcoin Computer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28
Merit: 0



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:13:13 AM
 #10

you didn't answer the question...I know it's a derivative that would trade on wall street....I asked what happens if buyers of btc calls, for example, actually want delivery of btc instead of settlement in fiat?
Your betting on Bitcoin Value not receiving BTC in return....
Wall Stret does NOT give a shit about your coin brother....
Have a good night im driving home now...
Tag you "IT" Vic...
Haha
Al-
faisalp
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 52
Merit: 0


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:14:12 AM
 #11

lol...I think that says it all....bahaha...more wine?
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1001


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:20:17 AM
 #12

you didn't answer the question...I know it's a derivative that would trade on wall street....I asked what happens if buyers of btc calls, for example, actually want delivery of btc instead of settlement in fiat?
Your betting on Bitcoin Value not receiving BTC in return....
Wall Stret does NOT give a shit about your coin brother....
Have a good night im driving home now...
Tag you "IT" Vic...
Haha
Al-

How is your "sanitized" derivative (all positions are closed out before the settlement date with no actual trading) supposed to influence the bitcoin market?

You can't crash the real price without selling real bitcoins.  I guess you could hope to have a psychological effect on bitcoin holders, but I'm unconvinced.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
benjamindees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:26:14 AM
 #13

I'll just translate for those who aren't in on the central banking crime syndicate.  This is talking about a vehicle for the banks to pay for someone to suppress the Bitcoin economy "by other means".  As in, "that's a nice business you got there, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
notme
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1001


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 08:37:42 AM
 #14

I'll just translate for those who aren't in on the central banking crime syndicate.  This is talking about a vehicle for the banks to pay for someone to suppress the Bitcoin economy "by other means".  As in, "that's a nice business you got there, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

That I could believe.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
12jh3odyAAaR2XedPKZNCR4X4sebuotQzN
FreddyFender
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 215
Merit: 100


Shamantastic!


View Profile
March 30, 2013, 01:12:34 PM
 #15

This should get interesting when Popescu, cypherdoc, Death&Taxes have a good read.

BurtW
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2562
Merit: 1061

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.


View Profile WWW
March 30, 2013, 01:24:40 PM
 #16

Now that "Al" is sober maybe he could explain how side bets on BTC price, that are not even backed by real actual BTC are suposed to effect actual BTC price?  He said these Wall Street gamblers don't care about us and Bitcoin so why should we give a shit about them and their fiat gambling addiction?

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
mobodick
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840
Merit: 1000



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 01:37:29 PM
 #17

you didn't answer the question...I know it's a derivative that would trade on wall street....I asked what happens if buyers of btc calls, for example, actually want delivery of btc instead of settlement in fiat?
Your betting on Bitcoin Value not receiving BTC in return....
Wall Stret does NOT give a shit about your coin brother....
Have a good night im driving home now...
Tag you "IT" Vic...
Haha
Al-

How is your "sanitized" derivative (all positions are closed out before the settlement date with no actual trading) supposed to influence the bitcoin market?

You can't crash the real price without selling real bitcoins.  I guess you could hope to have a psychological effect on bitcoin holders, but I'm unconvinced.

... because psychological effects have never run rampage on the bitcoin price, for sure...  Grin
mindtomatter
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434
Merit: 250


Editor-in-Chief of Let's Talk Bitcoin!


View Profile WWW
March 30, 2013, 01:57:04 PM
 #18

Paper gold is working so well for that market, seems silly not to try and pull the same stunt with paper Bitcoins.

Let's Talk Bitcoin! Interviews, News & Analysis released Tuesdays and Saturdays
http://www.LetsTalkBitcoin.com - Listener Mail -> adam@letstalkbitcoin.com
BurtW
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2562
Merit: 1061

All paid signature campaigns should be banned.


View Profile WWW
March 30, 2013, 02:15:05 PM
 #19

I have a theory.

This is nothing more than a long winded version of "what if Wall Street big money comes in and manipulates the price of BTC to make a quick buck?" post we have seen a thousand times before.

The theory goes that they create a bunch of unbacked derivatives.  They also take up a large BTC trading position.  Sell a bunch of derivatives.  Using their large BTC holdings and obviously large USD holdings manipulate the BTC market to their advantage in this new derivative market.  If that is what is being proposed then I only see a bunch of fiat derivative gamblers being taken.  BTC traders can just go along for the ride.

Is that is "Al"?

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
mobodick
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840
Merit: 1000



View Profile
March 30, 2013, 02:50:27 PM
 #20

Al-

What happens when the buyers of btc options want delivery instead of a fiat profit?  The sellers of these options would certainly have to own some bitcoin to fulfill the contract then...where are they going to get it...

There is no physical constraint to delivery of btc...there is no limit as to who is able to take delivery of btc...

I don't have a crude oil storage tank in my backyard to take delivery of crude I buy via options...but I do have a blockchain.info wallet...
It's a Derivative, It would trading it on Wall Street. People with bitcoin already are not the target but rather the outside investors that are willing to take the risk,  With a derivative their is no need to take ownership of the commodity rather it is a straight up bet based on the future value the "winner" get paid with the money from the incorrect investors no bitcoin ever needs to trade hands.  it is not about trading bit coin but rather betting on the street.  the only downfall is if the derivative causes bitcoin value to plummet the people currently with bitcoin holdings or mining operations will be the ones loosing the most.  

"Burp" More Wine Please!!!!
Al -

Yeah, and wall street would get a short sharp lesson in volatility if they start to stir in bitcoins with their big paws.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!