████► BetcoinRakeback.com ♠ 58-83% Rakeback ♥ WPN Tourneys ♣ Freerolls ◄████

[Xiaoxiao]

Any news on when you expect to be paying RB this week?  Thanks.

I expedited your specific rakeback earlier and all rakeback should be processed and pending support approval.  Take care!

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[Xiaoxiao]

Please continue to log into your account for vip rakeback to be updated regularly by the system. If it is ever skipped (a minority of players are getting vip rb skipped by the system) please do not hesitate to contact myself or live support for it to be updated immediately.

Thanks for your patience.  The Betcoin platform as well as BetcoinRakeback.com is still at its infant stages and there will be a lot of new and exciting developments!

[Xiaoxiao]

Those that have referrals under this rakeback program and has been banned, it is your duty to notify me if/when you get your account cleared to continue receiving your referral commission.  Thanks!

[Wh0CaR3s]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1616139.msg16861031#msg16861031

You probably make money out of these BOT accounts but I hope you are aware that this is bad for everyone (players, site, affiliates) that they can run wild on a site and that, in the long term, it surely means the end of online poker.

So I do hope you’re gonna push very hard the Betcoin Management so that they finally take actions against the BOT accounts that are cheating the players since months on Betcoin.

I copy/paste here what I said on the Betcoin BTC thread in case my post is being nuked there.

I am going to try to raise awareness about the current integrity of the cash games on Betcoin during the past few months since just talking about it on the tables seems insufficient considering the cheaters still get action.

Cliff: There is none.

It has been 6 months since I try to get Betcoin management to take measures against BOTS playing on the site, to no end.
The accounts in question are: “Durrr” / “Duremar22” (“Durrr” is not playing anymore, it has been replaced by the “Duremar22” account) and “8microman”.
Durrr/Duremar22 playing 200NL and 100NL tables in the morning CET
8microman being in charge of playing 100NL and 50NL in the afternoon CET.

All those accounts are using the same based BOT (each operator can certainly tweak it but at its core the way it acts remains the same)
The accusation of them being BOTS is not a wild speculation, it is relaying on:
/.Stats on key points
/.Sizings
/.Timing tells
/.Antics at the tables.

Each alone not being enough (tho, the stats converging on a lot of key points over a large sample size is enough but you need to have a big DB), altogether them using the same based BOT is an evidence.

I would not go into specifics as I did with Betcoin management because I certainly do not want to help the BOT maker to tweak it and render it harder to spot.

The reaction of Betcoin management has simply been to do nothing.
When after a couple of months the only answer I can get is that “they are on it” and “they are still compiling data” it sadly became obvious that they didn’t intend to do anything.

We are not talking about a site with hundreds of players on average in cash games. Betcoin, according to Pokerscout, has an average of 20 cash game players.
20 players on average and they cannot spot / ban BOTS with such a low player pool.

It can only be either sheer incompetence or malicious intent.
Giving the track record of Betcoin, I would go for the former but that still not make it ok as players on Betcoin are getting cheated everyday by those BOTS.

[TwitchySeal]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1616139.msg16861031#msg16861031

You probably make money out of these BOT accounts but I hope you are aware that this is bad for everyone (players, site, affiliates) that they can run wild on a site and that, in the long term, it surely means the end of online poker.

So I do hope you’re gonna push very hard the Betcoin Management so that they finally take actions against the BOT accounts that are cheating the players since months on Betcoin.

I copy/paste here what I said on the Betcoin BTC thread in case my post is being nuked there.

I am going to try to raise awareness about the current integrity of the cash games on Betcoin during the past few months since just talking about it on the tables seems insufficient considering the cheaters still get action.

Cliff: There is none.

It has been 6 months since I try to get Betcoin management to take measures against BOTS playing on the site, to no end.
The accounts in question are: “Durrr” / “Duremar22” (“Durrr” is not playing anymore, it has been replaced by the “Duremar22” account) and “8microman”.
Durrr/Duremar22 playing 200NL and 100NL tables in the morning CET
8microman being in charge of playing 100NL and 50NL in the afternoon CET.

All those accounts are using the same based BOT (each operator can certainly tweak it but at its core the way it acts remains the same)
The accusation of them being BOTS is not a wild speculation, it is relaying on:
/.Stats on key points
/.Sizings
/.Timing tells
/.Antics at the tables.

Each alone not being enough (tho, the stats converging on a lot of key points over a large sample size is enough but you need to have a big DB), altogether them using the same based BOT is an evidence.

I would not go into specifics as I did with Betcoin management because I certainly do not want to help the BOT maker to tweak it and render it harder to spot.

The reaction of Betcoin management has simply been to do nothing.
When after a couple of months the only answer I can get is that “they are on it” and “they are still compiling data” it sadly became obvious that they didn’t intend to do anything.

We are not talking about a site with hundreds of players on average in cash games. Betcoin, according to Pokerscout, has an average of 20 cash game players.
20 players on average and they cannot spot / ban BOTS with such a low player pool.

It can only be either sheer incompetence or malicious intent.
Giving the track record of Betcoin, I would go for the former but that still not make it ok as players on Betcoin are getting cheated everyday by those BOTS.

Xiao doesn't give a fuck and Betcoin deleted your post already...

Good thing someone started an official thread to discuss Betcoin without being moderated by Betcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1616152.120

[Xiaoxiao]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1616139.msg16861031#msg16861031

You probably make money out of these BOT accounts but I hope you are aware that this is bad for everyone (players, site, affiliates) that they can run wild on a site and that, in the long term, it surely means the end of online poker.

So I do hope you’re gonna push very hard the Betcoin Management so that they finally take actions against the BOT accounts that are cheating the players since months on Betcoin.

I copy/paste here what I said on the Betcoin BTC thread in case my post is being nuked there.

I am going to try to raise awareness about the current integrity of the cash games on Betcoin during the past few months since just talking about it on the tables seems insufficient considering the cheaters still get action.

Cliff: There is none.

It has been 6 months since I try to get Betcoin management to take measures against BOTS playing on the site, to no end.
The accounts in question are: “Durrr” / “Duremar22” (“Durrr” is not playing anymore, it has been replaced by the “Duremar22” account) and “8microman”.
Durrr/Duremar22 playing 200NL and 100NL tables in the morning CET
8microman being in charge of playing 100NL and 50NL in the afternoon CET.

All those accounts are using the same based BOT (each operator can certainly tweak it but at its core the way it acts remains the same)
The accusation of them being BOTS is not a wild speculation, it is relaying on:
/.Stats on key points
/.Sizings
/.Timing tells
/.Antics at the tables.

Each alone not being enough (tho, the stats converging on a lot of key points over a large sample size is enough but you need to have a big DB), altogether them using the same based BOT is an evidence.

I would not go into specifics as I did with Betcoin management because I certainly do not want to help the BOT maker to tweak it and render it harder to spot.

The reaction of Betcoin management has simply been to do nothing.
When after a couple of months the only answer I can get is that “they are on it” and “they are still compiling data” it sadly became obvious that they didn’t intend to do anything.

We are not talking about a site with hundreds of players on average in cash games. Betcoin, according to Pokerscout, has an average of 20 cash game players.
20 players on average and they cannot spot / ban BOTS with such a low player pool.

It can only be either sheer incompetence or malicious intent.
Giving the track record of Betcoin, I would go for the former but that still not make it ok as players on Betcoin are getting cheated everyday by those BOTS.

Hello Who0CaR3s,

First of all, I appreciate your involvement and proactiveness in policing the poker room.  It is people like you and live support that make Betcoin poker one of the better and promising poker environments today.  I must note there is a decent amount of players that have NOT taken advantage of this rakeback program.  The players you bring into question are not on this rakeback program, so I am certainly not profiting off their play.  

The problem is that there are way too many careless 'bot' accusations being flung around, and most of which after close examination are not bots at all, and some of these accusations even turn out to be players having a vendetta and/or fit of rage against another player that has won against them.

I'm certainly not saying that is what you're doing as you seem to have much more care in your examination/accusation.  However, I can say that the evidence you've brought up isn't even CLOSE to being conclusive.  You would have to have a LARGE sample of hands which I doubt you have, on the player(s) in question PLUS every other telltale sign of botting has to be positive, for it to be conclusive that one is botting, and it seems like you are not at that point in your investigation.

In the past, Full Tilt poker had done a great job of eliminating bots, and they were only able to do so after having sample sizes of over 30,000 hands.  The worst thing that can happen is for an innocent player and all his/her hardwork and grind to be destroyed due to accusations.  My advice is to stay vigilant and wise at the same time, making sure the poker environment is safe as well as not making careless accusations, both of which you're quite good at, but most players are not like that; hence they throw out careless accusations and some out of malice.

Finally I think an even scarier problem in online poker in general, far scarier than bots, is the problem of collusion.  This problem is pretty much nonexistent at Betcoin Poker's cash games, due to the vigilance of people like you and live support, but it is something I hope everyone can/will focus on more, because bots certainly do not have the unfair advantage that collusion brings.  In fact, most bots avoid playing good players.  Why are there never any potential bots willing to sit with some of the high rollers at say $5/10 NL and higher?  It's because world class players, thankfully, are still greater than bots and much less exploitable than bots at this point in NL/PL.  At any rate, I've said a lot and I will certainly bring up anything that I see questionable to support.  So we are certainly on the same page in terms of wanting a clean and healthy poker environment.

[Xiaoxiao]

Xiao doesn't give a fuck and Betcoin deleted your post already...

Twitchy, don't put words in my mouth.  You're more of an annoyance than asset to the poker community.

[TwitchySeal]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1616139.msg16861031#msg16861031

You probably make money out of these BOT accounts but I hope you are aware that this is bad for everyone (players, site, affiliates) that they can run wild on a site and that, in the long term, it surely means the end of online poker.

So I do hope you’re gonna push very hard the Betcoin Management so that they finally take actions against the BOT accounts that are cheating the players since months on Betcoin.

I copy/paste here what I said on the Betcoin BTC thread in case my post is being nuked there.

I am going to try to raise awareness about the current integrity of the cash games on Betcoin during the past few months since just talking about it on the tables seems insufficient considering the cheaters still get action.

Cliff: There is none.

It has been 6 months since I try to get Betcoin management to take measures against BOTS playing on the site, to no end.
The accounts in question are: “Durrr” / “Duremar22” (“Durrr” is not playing anymore, it has been replaced by the “Duremar22” account) and “8microman”.
Durrr/Duremar22 playing 200NL and 100NL tables in the morning CET
8microman being in charge of playing 100NL and 50NL in the afternoon CET.

All those accounts are using the same based BOT (each operator can certainly tweak it but at its core the way it acts remains the same)
The accusation of them being BOTS is not a wild speculation, it is relaying on:
/.Stats on key points
/.Sizings
/.Timing tells
/.Antics at the tables.

Each alone not being enough (tho, the stats converging on a lot of key points over a large sample size is enough but you need to have a big DB), altogether them using the same based BOT is an evidence.

I would not go into specifics as I did with Betcoin management because I certainly do not want to help the BOT maker to tweak it and render it harder to spot.

The reaction of Betcoin management has simply been to do nothing.
When after a couple of months the only answer I can get is that “they are on it” and “they are still compiling data” it sadly became obvious that they didn’t intend to do anything.

We are not talking about a site with hundreds of players on average in cash games. Betcoin, according to Pokerscout, has an average of 20 cash game players.
20 players on average and they cannot spot / ban BOTS with such a low player pool.

It can only be either sheer incompetence or malicious intent.
Giving the track record of Betcoin, I would go for the former but that still not make it ok as players on Betcoin are getting cheated everyday by those BOTS.

Hello Who0CaR3s,

First of all, I appreciate your involvement and proactiveness in policing the poker room.  It is people like you and live support that make Betcoin poker one of the better and promising poker environments today.  I must note there is a decent amount of players that have NOT taken advantage of this rakeback program.  The players you bring into question are not on this rakeback program, so I am certainly not profiting off their play.  

The problem is that there are way too many careless 'bot' accusations being flung around, and most of which after close examination are not bots at all, and some of these accusations even turn out to be players having a vendetta and/or fit of rage against another player that has won against them.

I'm certainly not saying that is what you're doing as you seem to have much more care in your examination/accusation.  However, I can say that the evidence you've brought up isn't even CLOSE to being conclusive.  You would have to have a LARGE sample of hands which I doubt you have, on the player(s) in question PLUS every other telltale sign of botting has to be positive, for it to be conclusive that one is botting, and it seems like you are not at that point in your investigation.

In the past, Full Tilt poker had done a great job of eliminating bots, and they were only able to do so after having sample sizes of over 30,000 hands.  The worst thing that can happen is for an innocent player and all his/her hardwork and grind to be destroyed due to accusations.  My advice is to stay vigilant and wise at the same time, making sure the poker environment is safe as well as not making careless accusations, both of which you're quite good at, but most players are not like that; hence they throw out careless accusations and some out of malice.

Finally I think an even scarier problem in online poker in general, far scarier than bots, is the problem of collusion.  This problem is pretty much nonexistent at Betcoin Poker's cash games, due to the vigilance of people like you and live support, but it is something I hope everyone can/will focus on more, because bots certainly do not have the unfair advantage that collusion brings.  In fact, most bots avoid playing good players.  Why are there never any potential bots willing to sit with some of the high rollers at say $5/10 NL and higher?  It's because world class players, thankfully, are still greater than bots and much less exploitable than bots at this point in NL/PL.  At any rate, I've said a lot and I will certainly bring up anything that I see questionable to support.  So we are certainly on the same page in terms of wanting a clean and healthy poker environment.

Whocares is probably right about them being bots, and Xiao is right about Whocares providing proof.  But only because he didn't really give any proof at all.  

Depending on the bots tendencies, you could have enough evidence from a single session, or you might need 100k+ hands.

Betcoin used to run bots 24/7 and they were gold mines for players.  The bots disappeared the same day they launched the table starter promo.  Here's a list of most of them http://pastebin.com/Gzzc6P6k

You can go play for playmoney on betbetr.com and see the same software (upgraded version actually) with all bots.

Stupid bots are great for the game.  Smart bots are bad for the game.  A site that tries to cover issues up and then lies about it is very bad for the game.  That's what Betcoin is doing.  Xiao, you should try to  get them to stop doing that instead of pretending like there's no issue.

Xiao doesn't give a fuck and Betcoin deleted your post already...

Twitchy, don't put words in my mouth.  You're more of an annoyance than asset to the poker community.

Betcoin is a cancer to the poker and bitcoin communities. 

Stop promoting them and I'll stop annoying you.   

[Wh0CaR3s]

@Xiaoxiao I thank you for taking the time to write a long post concerning this issue.
However, it seems to me that you’re quite a bit out of touch / rather naïve concerning this BOT issue.

1)  Support.

You obviously won’t take shot at them but during the 6 months of my correspondence I can assure you that at no point it seemed to me that the management had any asset in its team that would be competent enough to even grasp the BOT problematic.

And they clearly won’t take measures to change that – it would cost them time and money - because they can’t grasp how this matter is of the utmost importance.

As I told them, the 2 pillars of a poker site: / Guarantee the players’ funds are safe.
                                                           / Guarantee the integrity of the games.

2) Your view on BOTS and botting in general.

It is at best outdated. The fact that you go as far as to say that collusion is a higher threat than botting is astonishing.

You probably should check some threads about it on 2p2 like:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/888poker-safe-haven-bots-1554591/?highlight=
Or any threads about individual Site / network in the “Internet poker” section and you will see all the BOTS spotted that did get banned through players action and, sadly, all of those who do run wild to this day.

You seem as well to fall into the trap of dismissing BOT issue by saying that good players can beat them. It does not matter.
The fact that good players can still beat – actual – BOTS is irrelevant. The problem of them being losers or not pre-RB against a tougher competition is not the problem at hand. The issue being that they are winning against the RECS and therefore hitting the liquidity of each site.
In doing so, they hit by ricochet every player: top / good / BE / bad ones.

Now, you are as well at best quite naïve if you don’t think that botting is not making huge improvements each month goes by, integrating results of offline work using solvers (and I’m only talking about the public ones there) that are now available for everyone to work on their game.
When the day comes where public computers will be able to run solvers in real time, it will be the end for everyone. Online poker would be dead af as online chess for money is now.

The fight against BOTS must be taken place now or it will be all over in a few years. That means that each site needs to invest a lot of resources to fight this plague.


3) BOTS at hand on Betcoin.

You’re right that if you use only stats then you need a huge sample size for each account. However, if you read my post I have been quite clear about the fact that I did not use sole stats to spot them.

The accusation of them being BOTS is not a wild speculation, it is relaying on:
/.Stats on key points
/.Sizings
/.Timing tells
/.Antics at the tables.

Each alone not being enough (tho, the stats converging on a lot of key points over a large sample size is enough but you need to have a big DB), altogether them using the same based BOT is an evidence.

I would not go into specifics as I did with Betcoin management because I certainly do not want to help the BOT maker to tweak it and render it harder to spot.

If I go too much into specifics, new accounts will pop-up in the next month and I would have to find other BOTS failures to spot them. Rinse / repeat.

My goal, as I already said, is to raise awareness about the issue. If you’re a competent player you probably already had your doubts, if you’re more a rec player then you just have no clue about what’s going on.
Once I spot them, I don’t play them anymore.
If everyone is ready to do the same and create new tables instead of the ones where the BOTS are playing, it would fix the issue by itself. Just a bandage on a more broader issue, indeed, but that’s the best we can come up with as players if Betcoin management do not intend to act.


What I can bring as a beginning of proof by sole stats - as I think the BOT maker would have a hard time changing that unless rewriting everything on how it plays its ranges -  is the fact that the 3 of them seem to have a WAY HIGHER Agg Freq. OTT than any other reg. This stat is gonna as well converge faster than some others.


The BOT at hand seems to be a variation of this one:

I am not the only one who is saying that, Lessu is much competent than me and he already proved that those users are bots.
They are all big winners and they have overaggressive stats, they are not strictly table selecting and often they play 3 or 4 handed vs regs.
I am big winner on 100/400 also and i cant believe that someone without great table selection, on 888 where is huge rake, is taking so much money with so much aggression.
They all have identical stats, aggression turn frequency 45-50, iso bb vs sb limp over 70%, flop bet vs missed cbet IP 75% and stab turn OOP 80%. And they are not nits, they play 28/23, 29/21...
I am playing these game for years and i've never saw any winning reg from nl20 to nl600 with turn aggression nowhere near 40.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=50432578&postcount=16930

Confirmed by Lessu (who is quite the authority when it comes down to the fight against BOTS) who also said that he already found 2 different profiles for that particular BOT.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=50433329&postcount=16932


My sample size is way too small for the other stats, BUT for the Agg. Freq. OTT, which again should converge faster, I can hint that for all the 3 accounts suspected the number is over 50%.
Filters on: 4-6 players (so that HU and 3handed stats do not interfere in the aggression results).
Durrr (548 hands and 66 occurences for that particular stats)
http://imgur.com/gni1qyv
8microman (very small sample size only 133 hands and 19 occurences)
http://imgur.com/79EUH3m
Duremar22 (376 hands and 41 occurences)
http://imgur.com/0emNvBm

I am sure some regs got a WAY bigger DB.
They can fact check what I am saying and do see for themselves if indeed this particular stat converge to something hovering 50% over a larger sample size.
Then they just have to take the winning regs that they know for sure are human at the stakes in question (50NL to 200NL) either on BTC or FIAT sites and try to find any of them with such high Agg. Freq. OTT.
They probably won’t find any, even at 40+% let alone around 50%.

The fact that the 3 accounts suspected ALL HAVE this super high Agg. Freq. OTT is quite telling.

[Xiaoxiao]

Thanks for your response.  I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned botting vs collusion.  I never said collusion was more rampant than botting.  My point was that if people colluded as much as people botted, than the integrity of online poker would be in serious jeopardy.  I may have worded my thought a hastily.  I also want to note that collusion is non-existent at Betcoin Poker because of the policing of the entire community since new accounts can easily be spotted and dissected by both users and live support in the community center.

Regarding the issue of potential botter(s) I'll get to the rest of your post tomorrow because I've got to wake up early in the morning.  Take care!

[Xiaoxiao]

All rakeback was processed for the week of 11/07 - 11/13 this morning.  Support will have to release it before it hits your accounts.  Thanks and GL!

[Xiaoxiao]

Some newcomers are having trouble signing up.  The reason is because you may have to type in your registration info. and solve the captcha TWICE.  This was done to prevent spam.  So if you are not seeing this message after you enter your info, simply do it again and then you will see this message and receive your registration email:

[Xiaoxiao]

The 1.5 BTC Gold VIP Freeroll is today at 3 PM EST.  Get in Now!

The field will be much smaller than the previous freerolls!

[Xiaoxiao]

At Betcoin Poker you get 10-50% VIP Rakeback and with BetcoinRakeback.com you get an additional 33% rakeback!

Also there are freerolls nearly 24/7.  There are so many ways to earn!  From Daily Coin Freerolls to on-demand freerolls!  Also the action is great, and Bitcoin is growing steadily!  This is the future of online poker, where the options are great, the games are action packed and the rewards are bountiful!

[Xiaoxiao]

Besides the unbelievable poker environment and rewards offered by Betcoin via BetcoinRakeback.com, Betcoin also offers the best odds in all of bitcoin sports, if not all of sports!.

For example:

Betcoin offers nearly 2-10% better odds than most sports books!

[Xiaoxiao]

Rakeback for the week of 11/14 - 11/20 was completed last night.  Thanks and GL, and have a happy holidays everyone!

[Xiaoxiao]

When you stream under this rakeback program as well as promote your rakeback referral link, we will also promote your stream!  Please contact admin@betcoinrakeback.com for more details!  This is a great way to promote and get a following and let the world know about the highest rakeback in online poker!


Some players have been receiving 200-400 mbtc a week just for referring a few high volume players!

[Xiaoxiao]

Some announcements:


-OSS Tournament Series coming up!  Check the Tournament Lobby to see upcoming tournaments!

-Million Dollar Sunday coming up as well!

-Freerolls! There are TONS of freerolls available!

-And as always, the best rakeback in all of online poker when you sign-up with BetcoinRakeback.com

[Xiaoxiao]

A Massive 70+ Events coming up in the OSS!

[Xiaoxiao]

There is a temporary delay in extra rakeback for the week of 11/21 - 11/27 due to system update of stats.  Expect all rakeback to be processed before Friday 11 PM EST.  Apologies for the inconvenience.

Also many people have inquired about Table Starter Rakeback.  The answer is that it is NOT going away.  It's simply being reconstructed and Betcoin will continue to be the best poker environment in all of online poker!