Monero most likely coin to challenge Bitcoin

[obit33]

I have a question about Monero. Ok we are seeing that some people here are saying that Monero will be bitcoin's real challenger. Let me ask, how is the hashing power of Monero? Is the network strong enough to repel a 51% attack. I believe it will be the latest target for hackers, now with its new found high value and notoriety in the darknet markets.

well, you can't compare the hashing power of monero and bitcoin, it's two different algorithms...

hashing power has been steadily rising: http://www.coinwarz.com/network-hashrate-charts/monero-network-hashrate-chart

about the possibility of 51% attack, I'm sure someone smarter than me can enlighten you (and me)

[dinofelis]

Blockchainanalysis makes it perfectly possible to identify your entry-point in the blockchain and discover all your addresses

There are no "entry" and "exit" points in a blockchain (other than in the mining process).

You're obsessed with this banking terminology as if it's some kind of door you walk through and open an account that has your name on it forever. Cryptocurrency blockchains are a million miles away from that but good luck in trying to convince everyone of it. You might as well try to convince them that because you own a set of keys to your office you therefore own your employer's company.

I gave you already an example with an employer and a subcontractor.  I can give you more.  The point is that open transaction links between addresses allows one to use partial off-chain identity information to complete the puzzle.  If those transactions are not explicitly known, but one only has a cryptographic proof that they exist, then this kind of "completing the puzzle" cannot be done.

Here's another example.  Joe sells "illegal" stuff to Jack against bitcoin.  So there is a transaction from address A (Jack's) to address B (Joe's).  Joe withdraws coins from his account on, say, Kraken to his address C (Joe's).    Next, Joe pays Mark some bitcoin from address B and C to Mark's and gets a return in address D (Joe's).  Next, Joe buys a coffee at Julia's café, and his wallet pays from D to address K (Julia's) and his return address E (Joe's).

Now, law enforcement arrests Jack.  Jack doesn't say anything, but law enforcement can see in Jack's wallet that Jack owned address A and hence paid to address B.  Suppose now that law enforcement works with Julia's cafe.  They see that after a few transactions, A - B - D - K Jack's coins end up at Julia's.  She can clearly identify Joe as the owner of address D.  But law enforcement looks for the owner of B, who did business with Jack.  Given that they see that B was combined with C into a transaction leading to D, and that they can find out that C is Joe's because it came from Kraken, Joe cannot deny to be the owner of B too.

Indeed, a transaction combining B and C(of Joe) into D (of Joe) can be nothing else but B being Joe's too.

As such, with just knowing that Jack paid B and Kraken and Julia's cafe, one can find out that B must be owned by Joe and that Joe worked for Jack.  So the relationship between Jack and Joe can be derived from the block chain, and information that doesn't relate to their relationship.

Do the same with cash.  There's no way law enforcement can ever trace back the relationship between Jack and Joe.  With monero, neither.

You think a blockchain where you can't see the addresses is any more protection than one where you can ? You guys are deluded. The interface with the commercial world is a common denominator that everyone has to deal with whether it's Bitcoin, Monero or a lump of gold under your bed.

The point is that chain analysis can complete PARTIAL information by using the transaction network.

[dinofelis]

I have a question about Monero. Ok we are seeing that some people here are saying that Monero will be bitcoin's real challenger. Let me ask, how is the hashing power of Monero?

One monero (cryptonight) hash is way, way more computing intensive than one bitcoin hash.

[toknormal]

Now, law enforcement arrests Jack.  Jack doesn't say anything, but law enforcement can see in Jack's wallet that Jack owned address A and hence paid to address B....She can clearly identify Joe as the owner of address D.  But law enforcement looks for the owner of B

You're again imagining in a world based on bank accounts. This is nonsense.

Cryptocurrency addresses do not have "owners". An "owner" is a legal concept and in particular with a bank account describes their state of debt or credit. I realise there are definitions of "ownership" that overlap but the difference is that a blockchain address is not defined by a holder where the money in a bank account is.

Forget the idea that an employer is going to be paying you in "crypto". It's pie in the sky. Crypto is an asset class amongst thousands. Mainstream currencies are and always will be (in a technological world) numbers in computers that correspond to the prevailing financial system of the day. One is a million miles away from the other.

Sometimes when I'm having these discussions with Monero people it's like they've invented this little legoland where the entire world revolves around their currency. Another example of that is the "Viewkey" and the little anecdote about how an auditor can come into a company with his breifcase and suit, get a viewkey and go away again and thats compliance. It's laughable.

The life of an economic entity - be it a person, corporation, business or otherwise transits through thousands of asset classes. It doesn't spend its entire existence transferring crypto from one address to another. The boundaries between asset classes are where regulatory enforcement is asserted and that will apply to Monero as for any other asset class.

[Spoetnik]

Quit being stupid..
If Monero was a challenger to Bitcoin it would have been obvious years ago.
There is no debate to be had here.
And the OP posted a stupid comment / topic.

[dinofelis]

Now, law enforcement arrests Jack.  Jack doesn't say anything, but law enforcement can see in Jack's wallet that Jack owned address A and hence paid to address B....She can clearly identify Joe as the owner of address D.  But law enforcement looks for the owner of B

You're again imagining in a world based on bank accounts. This is nonsense.

The "right to spend" IS a form of ownership.  I would like to see you defend your thesis in court that if you've been selling drugs to Jack, who has been caught, in the above scenario, denying that the bitcoin value attached to address B is your ownership, even though you provably could transact it ; in other words, that you had its right to spend.

Cryptocurrency addresses do not have "owners". An "owner" is a legal concept and in particular with a bank account describes their state of debt or credit.

A "right to spend" of a cryptocurrency is exactly what defines its ownership.  In bitcoin, that corresponds to possessing the private key that comes with an address.  Of course, nobody can prove that you are in possession of such a key, UNLESS YOU USED IT exactly to do a transaction with. 

So in a certain way, UTXO can still be deniable ownership.  But past transactions that have been executed correctly on the chain, and that are led to your person, are an undeniable proof of past ownership.

If a past address B content was mixed with a transaction that was done by a known entity (in my example, an exchange like Kraken) TOWARDS YOU on YOUR DEMAND, and if you SPEND  the output of that transaction to a known entity that (KYC) knows you paid (to obtain a coffee), then there's no denying on your part that you WERE the owner of the spending rights of B at a point in time - because you USED them, and you were the only person capable of using it - so you must have been the owner of the spending rights.

Forget the idea that an employer is going to be paying you in "crypto". It's pie in the sky. Crypto is an asset class amongst thousands. Mainstream currencies are and always will be (in a technological world) numbers in computers that correspond to the prevailing financial system of the day. One is a million miles away from the other.

Why don't you think that one day, crypto currencies will be the "prevailing financial system of the day" ?  Probably not the ones we have now, but technologically much improved ones.

[dinofelis]

The life of an economic entity - be it a person, corporation, business or otherwise transits through thousands of asset classes. It doesn't spend its entire existence transferring crypto from one address to another. The boundaries between asset classes are where regulatory enforcement is asserted and that will apply to Monero as for any other asset class.

I would think that the "life of an economic entity in Europe" does spend most of its financial life transferring Euros from one account to another.  Most accountancy of a small company in Europe consists of receiving Euros from customers, and paying Euros to personnel and providers.  They rarely buy gold, dollars, shares, real estate or other stuff as a matter of financial accountancy if they are not big.  Even inside, they shuffle Euros from one department to another, on "internal accounts".
I don't see why, one day, that wouldn't be the case with crypto.  I surely hope so.
And no, regulation sets in even if you remain within the "Euro" boundary, and never cross it to the gold, real estate, shares or whatever other asset class.  I also dream load that the whole of crypto will make the states crumble under their financial incompetence and scamming, and free the people from state and law, but I realise that this is only a dream.

[toknormal]

I also dream load that the whole of crypto will make the states crumble under their financial incompetence and scamming

Well don't vote for obscured blockchains then where no-one can see w.t.f.'s goin on !  

[Azael]

Quit being stupid..
If Monero was a challenger to Bitcoin it would have been obvious years ago.
There is no debate to be had here.

Can't start a crypto economy in 2 years just look at Bitcoin in 2011.

Anyway financial privacy is no joke. Anonymous currency is scarce and will become extremely valuable in a increasingly digital world where you don't own shit.

Apple and Google knows where the majority of their users shit eat and sleep. They know who you know who you are what you work with what you spend money on what you earn and whatever. They'll sell information to almost anyone who gives them enough in return.

Any broken system that can be abused will be until it breaks and when it does ordinary people will be looking for privacy oriented alternatives instead of giving up privacy for conveniency.

And you mean to tell me Bitcoin is the answer? Give me a break. Cash in or out a single dollar and companies will track many of your addresses and eventually tie them to your name and trade the information like companies do with every other information they have.

Maybe somebody sets up an account with your ID and withdraws illicit gains or maybe you trade with somebody who has tainted coins. Bitcoin in current form carry greater risks of using it as currency than benefits because of it's lack of privacy.

Bitcoin transactions you might as well distribute your bank statements to all the companies you buy stuff at so they can cater to your needs and they in turn can send it over to their partners to find other stuff you might like. Then they can sell it to governments so they can make "lists of what people like to buy" or whatever.

[cryptimus prime]

A fully transparent blockchain will always be far more valuable than an obscured one.

Not in this dimension.

XMR is just a further evolution of BTC. You can`t stop technological development.
Monero is just the next logical step.

In this short video McAffee just foresaw the coming of XMR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KACVJXytoY

[vokain]

A fully transparent blockchain will always be far more valuable than an obscured one.

Not in this dimension.

Yeah, too binary for this dimension. Come out from there toknormal, join us in the real world

[Azael]

I have a question about Monero. Ok we are seeing that some people here are saying that Monero will be bitcoin's real challenger. Let me ask, how is the hashing power of Monero? Is the network strong enough to repel a 51% attack. I believe it will be the latest target for hackers, now with its new found high value and notoriety in the darknet markets.

The bad guys are actually using botnets to mine and contribute to securing the Monero network.


Read it in this article http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/most-connected-seagate-central-devices-infected-by-monero-mining-trojan/

[Ayers]

Quit being stupid..
If Monero was a challenger to Bitcoin it would have been obvious years ago.
There is no debate to be had here.
And the OP posted a stupid comment / topic.

Bitcoin isn't even Close to being "mainstream". If it ever even gets there. Any cryptocurrency can challenge Bitcoin at this stage.

isn't the opposite? at that point no crypto coin can dream to challenge bitcoin, if it is the right time for any other crypto to challenge it should be now

[0day]

Quit being stupid..
If Monero was a challenger to Bitcoin it would have been obvious years ago.
There is no debate to be had here.
And the OP posted a stupid comment / topic.

Bitcoin isn't even Close to being "mainstream". If it ever even gets there. Any cryptocurrency can challenge Bitcoin at this stage.

isn't the opposite? at that point no crypto coin can dream to challenge bitcoin, if it is the right time for any other crypto to challenge it should be now

Monero can only dream for to challenge bitcoin but in real it cannot even follow bitcoin, bitcoin has reached to a highest peak and now none of the altcoin has that much potential to get that much success and none of the altcoin is able to get the place of bitcoin.

[Spoetnik]

@Azael my point is solid.. and you are wrong making weak excuses.

What have the Monero shills been saying last couple years ?
They have been trying to sell Crypto on it for ages..
The reasons they post to use it are the reason why it was denied so far.
If the reasons were compelling and captivated the scene we would have witnessed
a surge in activity like when Prime Coin came out for example.

The proof is in the tech.. it can't lie.
it is what it is.
And the public can simply see what it is.. then say yes or no.
So far..
They have shown 0 interest in it.

And comparing Bitcoin to a shitcoin that came out many years later is retarded.
One is the originator and the other is a copy / mod #2,304

I am wasting my time, there is no getting through to you idiots here.
You are all blind and dumb and greedy.
Spewing bullshit 24/7 because it's in your best interest.

I am not holding a bag behind my back proclaiming xyz coin is teh bestest !!11
Nope.. i post actually objective info based on reality.

I already made a topic ages ago called "Why ANON coins will not work"
Making them is stupid.
All you will manage to do is attract the US govt.
..good luck with that LOL

The rest is niche shitcoin scene trading profiteer pump & dump antics.
The real outside world has no use for Monero and never will.
We would have seen an *indication* long ago if it was a reasonable promising concept. (for large scale adoption)
Buy we didn't did we ?

Why do you dumb fucks think the worlds biggest financial system players want to BUY YOUR BAGS ?
Didn't i just tell you Monero is still coin no. 2,304 ?
Why buy some scammy shits altcoin bags when you can rip off the tech and mod it to your liking ?

I heard little scammy pricks on Poloniex scam away for ages pounding the chat box with lies..
They kept chanting IBM is *using* Ethereum over & over 24/7 for a couple months roughly.
Go to Polonibox to see it yourself
You will also see me asking one of the main super-shills why he stopped spamming on about it ?
What did he say ?
Turns out IBM was doing an internal experiment test not connected to the outside world (Poloniex etc)
So they stopped spamming on about it all the time luring in kidiot investards with REAL MONEY
because he said IBM dropped the test and decided to code their own system.

You are all fucking retards spewing idiot dipshit bullshit.
..to make money off your stupid scammy ass "bags"

period /.

[c789]

I also dream load that the whole of crypto will make the states crumble under their financial incompetence and scamming

Well don't vote for obscured blockchains then where no-one can see w.t.f.'s goin on !  

You can choose to allow others to see your Monero transactions by making your View Key public: https://getmonero.org/knowledge-base/moneropedia/account

[toknormal]

You are all fucking retards spewing idiot dipshit bullshit.
..to make money off your stupid scammy ass "bags"

Well, their gains are measured in BTC aren't they.

Tells you all you need to know 

[smoothie]

You are all fucking retards spewing idiot dipshit bullshit.
..to make money off your stupid scammy ass "bags"

Well, their gains are measured in BTC aren't they.

Tells you all you need to know  

Why does it matter? Gains are gains.

Otoh was bragging recently about his gains to pay for his lunch/meal.

Did you comment on that as well concerning his gains being denominated in USD?

[CryptoCamel]

XMR is a great project but imo unless you're in it for the loooong run as a true belieber it'd probably be wise for traders to take profits if they havent already

[toknormal]

Why does it matter? Gains are gains.

Your own OTOH was bragging recently about his gains to pay for his lunch/meal.

It matters because the title of this thread is "Monero most likely coin to challenge Bitcoin" and in support of that assertion, most contributors to this thread have talked about things like privacy, salary payments and purchases being exposed, de-linking blockchain addresses and such. In fact, in terms of measuring "adoption", none of that is as significant as price denomination.

You're fair enough in pointing out my hypocrisy regarding that particular post - when I invest in alt coins, I also measure my gains in bitcoin. But the difference is that I'm not pretending to live in a closed system where that altcoin's monetary characteristics are projected onto the entire economy as if it were the prevailing "national currency" - what I alluded to earlier as the "legoland syndrome".

I'm all for persuing maximum fungibility and improving bitcoin's level of resistance to de-anonymisation via information gleaned off-chain. But when people start to justify compromising blockchain transparency using anecdotes such as salary payments and health transactions it's just delusionary nonsense because the commercial world does not and will never be run on a blockchain.

Earlier in this thread somebody asked me to "come and live in the real world". Well in fact I've spent the last 25 years professionally designing and building business systems for accounting and eCommerce in the "real world" and if there's one thing I learned from that experience it's that the least significant variable in such machinery is the trading currency. In fact it's not even hard coded because nobody knows at design time what the price denominations are going to be - it's just numbers and will always be just numbers. That is what a currency is even if Monero were to be adopted around the entire world - just a way to denominate prices that's independent of hard assets.

So designing a cryptocurrency to support operational aspects of the financial system is folly which leaves you with a whole lot of redundant features because the transactions all get done off chain anyway. (See exchanges for example). Keeping your financial life "private" will be nothing to do with whether blockchain addresses are transparent or not, so in that respect you're compromising one of bitcoin's huge strengths and perhaps the single thing that's kept it alive for the last 9 years for......nothing !  

(P.S. My "own" Otoh ? Like it   )

Why does it matter? Gains are gains.

A gain against one pairing can be a loss against another. Another reason why it matters how you're measuring them and why denomination is significant.