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Author Topic: Monero most likely coin to challenge Bitcoin  (Read 4956 times)
generalizethis
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September 15, 2016, 09:31:15 AM
 #81


because the commercial world does not and will never be run on a blockchain.


If this is true, Dash can close up shop as that was its CC argument. Thankfully Monero can still have the trillion dollar market of untaxed income.

toknormal
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September 15, 2016, 09:35:33 AM
Last edit: September 15, 2016, 09:51:09 AM by toknormal
 #82


If this is true, Dash can close up shop as that was its CC argument.

Hello. I wondered when you would show up  Wink

Dash did not compromise blockchain transparency for privacy.

In fact it explicitly targeted fungibility as distinct from "visibility" (regarding blockchain addresses) and "anonymity" as distinct from "privacy". Those are the correct monetary priorities for implementing a cash medium IMO.
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September 15, 2016, 09:57:02 AM
Last edit: September 15, 2016, 10:39:34 AM by generalizethis
 #83


If this is true, Dash can close up shop as that was its CC argument.

Hello. I wondered when you would show up  Wink

Dash did not compromise blockchain transparency for anonymity.

In fact it explicitly targeted fungibility as distinct from "visibility" (regarding blockchain addresses) and "anonymity" as distinct from "privacy". Those are the correct monetary priorities for implementing a cash medium IMO.


It's always funny when someone damns their cause with their argument and tries to act like it didn't happen. No one in the Blackmarket set is buying your argument, so your left competing with cc companies--which I thought is why you guys dropped the dark from your name, but now you're stuck between that market (which you claim will never exist) and inferior privacy (which the market has judged unwanted), so good luck with an exit strategy--if you even have one--because I'm pretty sure blathering on in pseudo-intelligent speech isn't winning you any more time.


because the commercial world does not and will never be run on a blockchain.


toknormal
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September 15, 2016, 10:15:11 AM
Last edit: September 15, 2016, 10:25:51 AM by toknormal
 #84


I'm pretty sure blathering on in pseudo-intelligent speech isn't winning you any more time.

Well at least it's helping the senior Monero "attack dogs" to keep their teeth sharpened - even if it's in the conflicted cause of torpedoing transparency in forthecoming financial systems while claiming to promote "personal liberty".
Azael (OP)
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September 15, 2016, 10:19:17 AM
 #85

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets Top BTC volume XMR.

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethereum/#markets 1/3+ volume ETH/fiat. That is the path for Monero to follow.


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Azael (OP)
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September 15, 2016, 10:29:17 AM
 #86

XMR is a great project but imo unless you're in it for the loooong run as a true belieber it'd probably be wise for traders to take profits if they havent already


I would be surprised if 1BN market cap took more than 2 months. Similar analysis and indicators to when I held ETH in this position around $100M.

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Azael (OP)
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September 15, 2016, 10:44:58 AM
 #87


I am wasting my time, there is no getting through to you.
You are all blind and dumb and greedy.
Spewing bullshit 24/7 because it's in your best interest.

I told you this before that without owning any coins you're wasting your time. You're on a crusade against every coin you can find to warn people about the dangers of it. But speculators are big boys that can do their independent research and most will only learn what is bad by losing money to it.

And you know I never invest into something and then make it my best interest na it's the other way around. I get interested do the research and decide what I want to get out of the trade and then put in the money. And well sometimes things like ETH HF happen or I just change my mind which I am allowed to do since I am not a politician.

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Spoetnik
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September 15, 2016, 10:58:28 AM
 #88

@Azael
You are a noob and know fuck all .


You are all fucking retards spewing idiot dipshit bullshit.
..to make money off your stupid scammy ass "bags"

Well, their gains are measured in BTC aren't they.

Tells you all you need to know  Grin



Why does it matter? Gains are gains.

Otoh was bragging recently about his gains to pay for his lunch/meal.

Did you comment on that as well concerning his gains being denominated in USD?

Are we really talking about a coin that is touted as anonymous being sold on a centralized exchange that requires your picture ID in order to trade for bitcoins whom according to the topic title here is destined to replace ?

THAT is the mind fuck level of fucktardery around here.

Give me one good reason why Monero can challenge Bitcoin's throne. (even if you need Bitcoin to buy Monero LOL)
Because so far i have heard of none and i can not honestly think of any myself.
And i mean even if i hated the damn coin i would admit it if i did see a challenger here.

I just don't see it and i say that for no reason than to be honest with you all.
Biggest reason i think is my own opinions combined with the entire crypto-coins scene's opinion + all of humanity not into crypto stuff.
THEY ALL unanimously gove 0 fucks.

Now all of a sudden after 2 years of being irritating spammy shills you seem to think the future "silk road" bright.
And coincidentally new guys pop up with shill topics on Monero as it's getting it's recent pump activity.
And these points are not lost on the public.. they are far smarter than crypto morons.
Which is why they are not here buying your bags and arguing with you LOL

Monero Shills are retarded.
You are delusional and / or outright deceitful.
Some of you are horrendous combo of both and others are just gullible naive little patsies.
Just because you loiter around harping and whining about some fucking shit coin doesn't make it legit.
A persistent scam is.. a persistent scam (the long con)

I can get into a wide range / plethora of reasons why Monero has no shot in hell at ever chipping away at Bitcoins adoption levels but i am wasting my time because i think deep down you Shills know it but are here bickering simply to pad your bags and bullshit for bucks $$$

You Monero guys are COCKY obnoxious conceded delusional and irritating morons.
I can go through and name each one of you usual suspect shills and put on a clinic here show casing your stupidity.
Seriously pick any of one of these idiots and i will tell you all stories to laugh your ass off at these dumb fucking sleazy clowns.
FEBO ?
The guy who loiters around here crying FUD & Troll non stop who seems blissfully unaware of 90% of Monero's history yet ....
argues about how anything negative said about Monero is "lies' and "FUD" by.. "Trolls"
He told me he showed up late and even when i had told him about some of the shit the Monero guys have been caught doing he still tried to argue it.. because he's in denial and my IRC logs prove it too Wink

You guys are sleazy ass decetful idiots that lie, cheat and steal your way to get Bitcointalk kids lunch money with your shitcoin.

Just a mob of shitcoin long conners.
And i have put up with so much bullshit from you Monero idiots for 2 years and watched you pull sooooo many stunts you sicken me.

Monero is not going anywhere.. regardless of your recent pathetic pump attempt and shill topics here.

ANOTHER topic at BITCOINTALK arguing about some piece of shit anon coin getting adoption is hilarious.
Been there and done that and still after all these years NO COIN has budged and moved an inch to get adoption.
All we have is yet MORE topics on how XYZ coin is "ONE DAY" going to do this or that. Roll Eyes

..but we're still waiting and still bickering at Shitcointalk.org fucking kidiot profiteers.
And yeah it's going ohhhh so well too.. Shitcoins are doing great it's like 2013 all over again..
NO !
It's better.. man we're doing great ..like this shit is so awesome and reputable.
I think will hand over my picture ID to Poloniex and buy some Monero's ..i want Meth on Silk Road.


Reality Check: Nobody cares.

And nobody will.

FUD first & ask questions later™
Azael (OP)
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September 15, 2016, 11:17:08 AM
 #89

@Azael
You are a noob and know fuck all .

You are a beautiful and look good.

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dinofelis
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September 15, 2016, 11:29:47 AM
 #90

I'm all for persuing maximum fungibility and improving bitcoin's level of resistance to de-anonymisation via information gleaned off-chain. But when people start to justify compromising blockchain transparency using anecdotes such as salary payments and health transactions it's just delusionary nonsense because the commercial world does not and will never be run on a blockchain.

Whether the crypto of the future on which the commercial world will run will use "block chain technology" or other cryptographic techniques that have not yet been invented, I don't know.  But I surely would hope that we reach a day when distributed, grass-roots founded, non-state-or-corporate-monopoly digital assets ARE the currency on which the commercial world will run, or this whole crypto circus has no meaning at all.

We already know that bitcoin can't be that currency, at least not on-chain, and that even adaptive chains like monero will face practical problems of chain growth with current technology.  Maybe there will be smarter ways of doing this.   But the idea is, I would hope, to get liberated from state fiat money one day, and be free in the choice of the currency used in the economy.    In fact, the best would be that there are myriads of currencies from which to chose, in permanent competition and in permanent creation.

In ALL OF THESE CASES, it is to be hoped that there is no traceability of the succession of transactions, but at most "proof of right to spend".  All the other information is in any case 1) leaking private information and 2) harming the fungibility of the asset under scrutinity.

So *in any case* there is no need for a "transparent block chain" but only for a "proof of right to spend".  Whether that proof of right to spend is derived directly from things on the block chain, or from structures on top of that which are even not public, doesn't matter.

In fact you are heavily contradicting yourself here in several ways.  

1) In as much as, according to you, crypto currencies will remain a very minor toy in the hands of a few geeks considering that stuff having value, you are probably right that between getting your money off an exchange in fiat, turning it into cash, and using that cash whenever you want privacy, and only return onto an exchange to "play trader" and not to pay for any real world goods, you are prefectly right that a transparent block chain is not harming privacy much.
But hey, you don't even need a block chain in that case.  You can just trade the tokens on the web site of your exchange.  So the "transparent nature" of the block chain is not a problem, but also not necessary.  If crypto is not used as a currency, there's no problem, but also no need to have a transparent block chain (or no block chain at all).

2) In as much as crypto currencies ARE used as a "backbone" to OTHER ASSETS, but are widely used, then the transparency of the underlying block chain is just as broken because you cannot follow the off-chain transactions.  The off-chain assets will in any case just be cryptographic proofs to spend of the corresponding on-chain assets.  We're just as "opaque" as with a non-transparent block chain.  Yes, you can explicitly see the few transactions which are the final results of very long off-chain transaction histories, but as you don't have those, these settlements only indicate you that, whatever happened off-line was correct, without knowing WHAT happened off-line - exactly like a cryptographic proof of right to spend gives you.  You are right that the on-chain verification is explicit, but that on-chain happening is only a very minor fraction of what happens off-line.  So your "proofs of right to spend" are just as indirect (but nevertheless just as valid) as on a chain like monero.

3) The denomination of goods in a currency depends on the usage of that currency as currency.  If it is used a lot as currency, the "stickyness of prices" will stabilize the currency value and hence allow for denominating the stuff in the currency at hand.  In fact, when a large part is denominating its trades in a currency, the volatility risk of that currency diminishes strongly.

If I have a store, and I sell and I can buy in currency X, actually the "value" of X doesn't matter much, because what matters to me is the ratio of my selling price in X, and my buying price in X, to have a margin.  If, however, I sell in X, but I have to buy in Y, then the ratio of X to Y is very important to me.  I will tend to denominate my stuff in Y too, to avoid the risk of X to Y.

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That is what a currency is even if Monero were to be adopted around the entire world - just a way to denominate prices that's independent of hard assets.

On the contrary.  If most of the economic cycle has its products denominated in, say, monero, then by the stickyness of prices, monero will stabilize, and will induce others to denominate their stuff also in monero.  Simply because that eliminates a risk for them.  This is why essentially, we look at stuff in $ or Euro, even if we pretend to look at it in bitcoin.  Because right now, most stuff is denominated in $ or Euro.  Bitcoin has almost no economic integration as a currency, and the few companies that do, denominate actual prices in their main provider's currency, and CONVERT to bitcoin.  They have to, because otherwise the risk is too big.
If crypto is to succeed, this has to change.  If not, crypto is a geek's toy, and nothing more.   This can easily take a century.


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So designing a cryptocurrency to support operational aspects of the financial system is folly which leaves you with a whole lot of redundant features because the transactions all get done off chain anyway. (See exchanges for example). Keeping your financial life "private" will be nothing to do with whether blockchain addresses are transparent or not, so in that respect you're compromising one of bitcoin's huge strengths and perhaps the single thing that's kept it alive for the last 9 years for......nothing !  Grin

I really, really don't see what is the "strength" of a transparent block chain.  What you are essentially saying is that "we should keep a transparent block chain, because it doesn't matter; we don't use it as a currency".  You are perfectly right that a TRANSPARENT AND UNUSED BLOCK CHAIN preserves privacy and can remain transparent Smiley  If you don't use bitcoin, it won't leak your financial information, so much is true.

toknormal
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September 15, 2016, 11:35:21 AM
 #91


I really, really don't see what is the "strength" of a transparent block chain.

Well then I think I'll just refer you to the commentary 2 posts before yours which puts it more articulately than I've ever been able to  Wink
mining1
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September 15, 2016, 12:01:43 PM
 #92

OP epic fail. He hyped ETC and invested in ETC while it was pumped, he got burned. Now he's hyping monero, invested in monero while being pumped and guess what ? He got burned. What a failed trader.
dinofelis
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September 15, 2016, 12:59:28 PM
 #93


I really, really don't see what is the "strength" of a transparent block chain.

Well then I think I'll just refer you to the commentary 2 posts before yours which puts it more articulately than I've ever been able to  Wink


If that is the kind of argument (argumentum ad hominem) that you think is convincing, then we're not on the same planet.

What was bitcoin invented for ?  I would think, to let people FREELY trade with a FREE currency.  Now, as long as we have states that don't want you to freely trade, and declare war on every form of free trade (because they simply forbid it, or they want to steal part of it through taxes, or they want to follow it to verify permits and other forms of compliance), and don't want you to have a free currency they do not control, the only way to do so, is by doing so anonymously.  Doing free and hence illegal trading on a public transparent means of payment, graved in stone, is suicide.

As such, bitcoin was a good idea, but was lacking an essential element: privacy/anonymity.  The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis.  It worked enough when it was still under the radar.  Now, it isn't good enough any more.  It is way too transparent.

So, to the question: what other crypto is going to challenge bitcoin in its original purpose of bringing free (and hence illegal) trade currency back to people ?  I think that the answer "Monero" is not a bad answer.  It could even already have challenged bitcoin successfully, because my idea is that MOST of bitcoin's activity and market cap is actually legal, and hence OUT OF THE AIM of bitcoin.

If crypto isn't illegal, then it is not serving any purpose.  So, how much of the usage of bitcoin is really illegal, and how much of the usage of monero is illegal ?  And isn't monero challenging bitcoin then ?

Azael (OP)
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September 15, 2016, 04:05:15 PM
 #94

OP epic fail. He hyped ETC and invested in ETC while it was pumped, he got burned. Now he's hyping monero, invested in monero while being pumped and guess what ? He got burned. What a failed trader.

You're clueless about my finances.

As an analogy to crypto I've held and sold countless of different stocks over the years and I currently own several different stocks. Your point is I should pledge allegiance to one of them go all in and never sell despite changing conditions and that is retarded. Some of my holdings just interest me more than other.

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September 15, 2016, 09:44:28 PM
Last edit: September 16, 2016, 12:04:14 AM by toknormal
 #95


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Really ?

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.

The fact is that all chain analysis is good for is detecting patterns in blockchains. It can't tell jack about what's happening off-chain which is where the actual information resides as to who did what and sold what to whom. Anyone can do chain analysis right now by just looking at the movement between two addresses, and even if they know who controls one of those addresses (i.e. 50% of the problem domain solved which is massive) they don't have any information about the other. They can't tell if was a sale, a gift, a payment, some kind of exchange or simply another wallet. They can't even tell if the originator controls the destination wallet or not.

Off-chain information is always required to arrive at any of those conclusions so it's no different from any traditional monetary asset in that respect.

I don't think you really get the central point about what makes these assets potentially valuable. Blockchains are not there to hold "your money" the way a bank account is. They are a public ledger by nature, and everyone is free to crawl over it to whatever extent they want including chain analysts. It's the private key that's valuable, not the public one, because that lets you modify part of that common transacting engine exclusively but under the full glare of the entire world. The more of that "common transacting machine" you control, the more you private keys will be worth. Consequently - notwithstanding that fungibility enhancements are desireable - the more public and transparent that blockchain is, the more value will be attributed to your private keys  Wink
dinofelis
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September 16, 2016, 08:32:08 AM
 #96


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Really ?

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.


http://www.coindesk.com/consensus-2015-dojs-kathryn-haun-to-discuss-blockchain-analysis-and-silk-road-case/

Quote
The agents, Carl Mark Force IV of the DEA and Shaun Bridges of the Secret Service, are being charged with wire fraud, money laundering and other offences for making off with more than $800,000-worth of stolen bitcoin during their investigation of Silk Road.

The lead prosecutor on the case is Assistant US Attorney Kathryn Haun, of the Northern District of California. According to the complaint, Haun's team made extensive use of blockchain analysis to link the illicit bitcoin flows to the accused former agents.
obit33
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September 16, 2016, 10:53:26 AM
 #97


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.


Dude, this is very, very naive... I happen to know a lot about datamining myself... I am absolutely 100% sure dat chain analysis will help catching some criminals... people make mistakes, it's enough for them to have their name connected to one address being used one time and via the blockchain all their transactions can be identified...
You too must see that this is very problematic... When law enforcement detects 1 shady transaction with your name on, they can just check all your other transactions ever made on the blockchain, that won't look good in court...

with an obscured blockchain, they can identify 1 shady transaction, but this doesn't automatically give them insight in all the transactions you ever made...





dinofelis
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September 16, 2016, 11:44:15 AM
 #98


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.


Dude, this is very, very naive... I happen to know a lot about datamining myself... I am absolutely 100% sure dat chain analysis will help catching some criminals...

But it already happened in 2015.  The two FBI cops that thought to get away themselves with some Silk Road stash, got exactly nailed that way.  I provided a link.
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September 16, 2016, 11:55:10 AM
 #99


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.


Dude, this is very, very naive... I happen to know a lot about datamining myself... I am absolutely 100% sure dat chain analysis will help catching some criminals...

But it already happened in 2015.  The two FBI cops that thought to get away themselves with some Silk Road stash, got exactly nailed that way.  I provided a link.


Jup indeed, and I'm sure it will happen again... the algorithms and models will get better and smarter, more people will get caught...

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September 16, 2016, 12:46:44 PM
 #100


The pseudonymity was thought to be good enough, but it has been shown several times that this is NOT good enough because of chain analysis...It is way too transparent.

Wake me up when "chain analysis" starts catching some criminals.


Dude, this is very, very naive... I happen to know a lot about datamining myself... I am absolutely 100% sure dat chain analysis will help catching some criminals...

But it already happened in 2015.  The two FBI cops that thought to get away themselves with some Silk Road stash, got exactly nailed that way.  I provided a link.


Jup indeed, and I'm sure it will happen again... the algorithms and models will get better and smarter, more people will get caught...



Gimme a break with the bullshit.
Google the damn story.
They were caught stealing.. it had next to nothing to do with Chain-analysis.
Wow you all like to bullshit hard.

Them bags feelin' heavy ?

FUD first & ask questions later™
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