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Author Topic: Trading/exchange/tax questions  (Read 872 times)
Nescio
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June 13, 2011, 04:55:57 PM
 #1

A few trading related and perhaps general Bitcoin related questions:

Mt. Gox and Tradehill don't seem to have much in the way of documentation before registering, is this available inside or somewhere else? Particularly regarding rules like how much you can put in/withdraw etc.

Is it recommended to use TOR or proxies to get there and/or for trading for security and/or anonimity?

Never having done trading before, what regulatory/tax requirerements should I be aware of? For example, is every transaction taxed separately or just whatever balance you end up with? (important distinction for small margin/high volume trading)

Are Bitcoin holdings taxable and how do you price them for this purpose at the current volatility, some kind of average or snapshots at the beginning/end of the year or when you convert from/to fiat?

Edit: also, is there more in depth documentation of bitcoin itself, apart from the whitepaper? It doesn't have much detail, and I was hoping to avoid diving into source code Smiley
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Nescio
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June 14, 2011, 04:27:47 AM
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I know it's not a pleasent thing but has anyone even thought about tax issues? Smiley Or are you supposed to be a pro and know all about these things before you start trading?
linenoise
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June 14, 2011, 04:33:33 AM
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I'm not a tax person at all. From my understanding the IRS considers any barter as taxable income. If you spend bitcoins for a service or goods, it's taxable at whatever rate you use. Of course you can consider anytime "real" money hits a bank account the feds will know, patroit act ensures sharing of all financial info. Now if you're sitting on a pile of bitcoins that haven't been used then it's not a currency so not sure how that would be handled.


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CaseyHeinzism
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June 14, 2011, 04:39:05 AM
 #4

I am not a professional and this is not professional advice..
But I do know that by US law we still have to pay taxes on local currencies.. (if btc wants to be accepted as a real currency then people should pay the cash = of taxes on their btc dealings.)
And since BTC is trying hard to be accepted as a currency.. I suggest everyone..
Still keep records for those orgs and biz in the same way they would if earning and selling in US cash ..
I am not a financial professional though.. so you need to consult one of them.. on the laws of local currencies.
honeybadger
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June 14, 2011, 04:59:45 AM
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I don't think bitcoins are taxable....and that's kind of the point, isn't it? Besides... Its an international system. Who would have authority to tax it?

If you cash out your BTC holdings into your local national currency, however, that would count as capital gain and you would be required by legislation to declare it and pay the tax. (in N.america, anyway....not too sure about international tax law)

I don't give a shit.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg
Nescio
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June 14, 2011, 05:02:55 AM
 #6

Record keeping or paying taxes is not a problem (VAT on a sale should already be included in the price by the merchant and I would declare my balance at the proper time), but it makes a helluva difference if there is also some kind of tax per transaction or not, that's my most important question really.

An example: if you send $1000 to your account at an exchange, trade it back and forth for BTC and end up with say $1100 after 10 transactions, what is being taxed?
a) your capital, for example in some countries the average of your bank balance on january 1st and december 31st, so in this case $(1000+1100)/2=$1050?
b) some kind of income tax on the gains ($1100-1000=$100)?
c) some kind of trade tax on every transaction, so 10x a percentage of ~$1050 on average?
d) one or more of the above combined?
TheMartin
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June 14, 2011, 05:04:23 AM
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I know it's not a pleasent thing but has anyone even thought about tax issues? Smiley Or are you supposed to be a pro and know all about these things before you start trading?
Bitcoins becoming a kind of world money would be nice.
And in this case paying a fair share of your income as tax keeping the world going around would be nice too.

But I fear it will be different. Countries trying to enforce unfair taxes and people trying to pay no tax at all.
Nescio
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June 14, 2011, 05:13:26 AM
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I don't think bitcoins are taxable....and that's kind of the point, isn't it? Besides... Its an international system. Who would have authority to tax it?

I have no illusions there, there might be (temporary) technical loopholes but you have to be prepared to defend them in court and lose badly etc.

In theory you are responsible for truthfully declaring your holdings, in whatever form they may be. I guess for tax purposes that would be the BTC/USD spot price at purchase/sale or the given tax date, or whatever your locality's rule on this is.

But I'm not a financial advisor either, that's why I'm asking Smiley

Quote from: honeybadger
If you cash out your BTC holdings into your local national currency, however, that would count as capital gain and you would be required by legislation to declare it and pay the tax. (in N.america, anyway....not too sure about international tax law)

Right, no problem there. I'm not a hardcore libertarian opposed to any kind of government or taxation Smiley
Stephen Gornick
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June 14, 2011, 12:14:03 PM
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Mt. Gox and Tradehill don't seem to have much in the way of documentation before registering, is this available inside or somewhere else?

The operator of Mt. Gox exchange has said that the terms of service agreement is being updated.  Perhaps it will show when the planned updates to site are brought online.

In the meantime, the Bitcoin wiki probably has the most complete information.

Particularly regarding rules like how much you can put in/withdraw etc.

  With Mt. Gox, $1K/day and $10K/month may be withdrawn.  To obtain higher amounts requires a request for limits to be increased.
  - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mtgox#Withdrawing_Funds

  With TradeHill there are no per-day or per-month limits appently:
  - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/TradeHill#Withdrawing_Funds

  There are no "maximium deposit" amounts other than what common sense would tell you knowing that neither is based in the U.S. and as such, neither is FDIC insured.

Is it recommended to use TOR or proxies to get there and/or for trading for security and/or anonimity?
Both exchanges will use SSL https://  support so browser communication to the exchange is as secure as what SSL provides.  As far as using TOR neither exchange operates a hidden service.

Never having done trading before, what regulatory/tax requirerements should I be aware of?
- http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tax_compliance

Edit: also, is there more in depth documentation of bitcoin itself, apart from the whitepaper? It doesn't have much detail, and I was hoping to avoid diving into source code Smiley
A fantastic source of information is the interview Bitcoin lead developer Gavin did on Omega Tau:
 - http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency

The Bitcoin wiki has the most current and accurate details of most everything though.

Nescio
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June 15, 2011, 06:31:39 PM
 #10

The Bitcoin wiki has the most current and accurate details of most everything though.

Thanks for the links, I'll have a read this evening Smiley
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