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Author Topic: AVALON ASIC - QCool element watercooling thread  (Read 12497 times)
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April 02, 2013, 09:28:50 AM
 #1

This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.

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April 02, 2013, 10:45:20 AM
 #2

This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.

I have a masters in Mechanical Engineer and 7 years experience in cooling design and that plate is a bit weird. You're going to be losing SO much head pressure and slowing your flow down massively - which is something designed to happen in the radiator, NOT the block.

You want as much fluid ramming through the block as possible as opposed to it slowing down and heating up too much. In the radiator you want it slowed down so it gets as close to ambient as possible.

Take a look at typical GPU flow paths. They have minimal pathing and interference:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402876_474673442586692_1610541966_n.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/06-10-12/GPUblock_Side.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yIMMU6W0vyjfTM&tbnid=DhAugiqOkm2ZcM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhz&url=http%3A%2F%2Fekwaterblocks.com%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2FVGA-FC.jpg&ei=U7ZaUdOMEqjF0QWkhYH4Aw&psig=AFQjCNHre9qLYOiZ1y0-iV9gJ2tJFWpsBA&ust=1364985811358312
http://www.bestgraphicscard.net/wp-content/uploads/koolance-470-water-block.jpg

You can use riffles or pins like in CPU blocks to increase surface area if your simulations (...I assume you are using CFD...) need more heat transfer, but please dont meander the flow channel.

http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/03/11094211657l.jpg

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April 02, 2013, 11:08:30 AM
 #3

I'm guessing that part would be made from something like acetal and an aluminium or copper plate on the front would be used for heat transfer? That design would give the most bang for your buck but aluminium is dangerous stuff for consumer cooling products and the layout would be wasteful for copper. Its on par with most of the off the shelf GPU and CPU cooling products available as most of them put form and material cost over function and the GPU coolers have the same issue of unequal cooling across the board.

From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.

Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.

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April 02, 2013, 11:15:59 AM
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Yes, this design is not good. You may be better off having a company that does water blocks already do this like Danger Den, EK, Swiftech etc. I'm sure they would do custom projects. Danger Den I believe is in US and EK in Germany. There are others, but I've had good luck with both of them.

I'd also highly recommend copper/acetal like others mentioned. I'd recommend not going with aluminum at all since many commercial PC radiators are all copper. You will get serious galvanization.

Basically, just look at what they are already doing with PC water cooling.
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April 02, 2013, 11:36:31 AM
 #5

This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.

I have a masters in Mechanical Engineer and 7 years experience in cooling design and that plate is a bit weird. You're going to be losing SO much head pressure and slowing your flow down massively - which is something designed to happen in the radiator, NOT the block.

You want as much fluid ramming through the block as possible as opposed to it slowing down and heating up too much. In the radiator you want it slowed down so it gets as close to ambient as possible.

Take a look at typical GPU flow paths. They have minimal pathing and interference:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402876_474673442586692_1610541966_n.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/06-10-12/GPUblock_Side.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yIMMU6W0vyjfTM&tbnid=DhAugiqOkm2ZcM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhz&url=http%3A%2F%2Fekwaterblocks.com%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2FVGA-FC.jpg&ei=U7ZaUdOMEqjF0QWkhYH4Aw&psig=AFQjCNHre9qLYOiZ1y0-iV9gJ2tJFWpsBA&ust=1364985811358312
http://www.bestgraphicscard.net/wp-content/uploads/koolance-470-water-block.jpg

You can use riffles or pins like in CPU blocks to increase surface area if your simulations (...I assume you are using CFD...) need more heat transfer, but please dont meander the flow channel.

http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/03/11094211657l.jpg

You are right the heat distribution could be optimized with pins in the flow area, gonna work on that thanks for the hint


Yes, this design is not good. You may be better off having a company that does water blocks already do this like Danger Den, EK, Swiftech etc. I'm sure they would do custom projects. Danger Den I believe is in US and EK in Germany. There are others, but I've had good luck with both of them.

I'd also highly recommend copper/acetal like others mentioned. I'd recommend not going with aluminum at all since many commercial PC radiators are all copper. You will get serious galvanization.

Basically, just look at what they are already doing with PC water cooling.

Not sure if Danger Den would develop for BTC or DVC


I'm guessing that part would be made from something like acetal and an aluminium or copper plate on the front would be used for heat transfer? That design would give the most bang for your buck but aluminium is dangerous stuff for consumer cooling products and the layout would be wasteful for copper. Its on par with most of the off the shelf GPU and CPU cooling products available as most of them put form and material cost over function and the GPU coolers have the same issue of unequal cooling across the board.

Right, the first elements will be made out of aluminium, simply to hold the costs down, by now i dnt even have a sketch or any data i could work with from AVALON, so the waiting time can be used for design Smiley
(Hope that the AVALON trade-in will soon be done)

Be aware that it is not the intention of our projects to produce for the market, but rather having a 3d printable design usable by everyone. To ship that huge cooler around the planet doesnt make sense, but with a 3d model published on defcad i guess its more easy for everyone.

When you look at the actual AVALON Module you see that its made out of 8 elements placed next to each other. In the first phase there was a design with 8 small cooling elements mounted to one module and interconnected by hoses trough 8 inlets and 8 outlets. The next version was to direct the flow trough the channels in a whole element (probably 320 mm x 150 mm), would be great to have the real dimensions.

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April 02, 2013, 11:40:12 AM
 #6

....
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.

Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.

It does but the biggest issue with an Avalon block atm is volume. If there was high enough volume for injection molding and complex CNC operations then a heavily optimized design would be cost effective but for low volume it has to be simple. Even that design has hidden costs, both the fixation and sealing methods for the plate and the mountings for the block aren't included.

The inlet and outlet port sizes are a limiting factor on that layout, smaller ports and more of them would allow for a thinner plate and better heat distribution and maybe allow copper strips to be used for heat transfer instead of a full sized plate.

This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it. Why exactly are you trying to injection mould copper again?

Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market, for internal and external diameters, and thread dimensions.

Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.

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April 02, 2013, 11:42:56 AM
 #7

....
From CPU/GPU cooling that would be the path (a bad one) etched into the copper. Generally copper is cheap enough (esp for $300+ retail) to make a sandwich of copper plates, although for cost efficiency a single copper plate with acetate cover.

Unequal cooling is countered by high flow rates which tends to keep the coolant temp consistent -> equal cooling. His channel needs a total redesign.

It does but the biggest issue with an Avalon block atm is volume. If there was high enough volume for injection molding and complex CNC operations then a heavily optimized design would be cost effective but for low volume it has to be simple. Even that design has hidden costs, both the fixation and sealing methods for the plate and the mountings for the block aren't included.

The inlet and outlet port sizes are a limiting factor on that layout, smaller ports and more of them would allow for a thinner plate and better heat distribution and maybe allow copper strips to be used for heat transfer instead of a full sized plate.

This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it. Why exactly are you trying to injection mould copper again?

Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market, for internal and external diameters, and thread dimensions.

Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.

You won't be 3D printing something like this, its not up to scratch. I'm currently doing a lot of work with one of the cutting edge academic departments for additive manufacturing - its not something suited to this. There are only a handful of methods suitable for essentially 'metal printing' which is what you'd require for copper [alluminium is essentially impossible], those machines cost close to 6 figures and are by no means anywhere near 'office friendly'.

This is a really simple job for a CNC, although you could do it yourself on a router as accuracy isn't that important.

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April 02, 2013, 11:43:21 AM
 #8

Quote
This is 2013, not the 15th century. Advanced CNC machining is everywhere, just find a workshop near you, give them $20 a unit to to watch over your design being printed and they'll do it


I totaly agree



Quote
Inlet and outlet port sizes should be defined by current 1/4 3/8 1/2 standards of all the other fittings on the market
Inlet and outlet is 1/2 standard

Quote
Sealing method is pretty damn simple and as cheap as you like. Rubber gasket around the edge, 8-16 bolts through clearance holes or threaded into the copper through the acetate.

Exactly Smiley

Quote
You won't be 3D printing something like this, its not up to scratch. I'm currently doing a lot of work with one of the cutting edge academic departments for additive manufacturing - its not something suited to this. There are only a handful of methods suitable for essentially 'metal printing' which is what you'd require for copper [alluminium is essentially impossible], those machines cost close to 6 figures and are by no means anywhere near 'office friendly'.

This is a really simple job for a CNC, although you could do it yourself on a router as accuracy isn't that important.

Yes CNC is the method of chiose for this. By now titanium 3d printer are not suited for it
But please be aware that its not our intention to produce for the market, rather make it avalable for everyone.

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April 02, 2013, 12:02:58 PM
 #9

Injection molding acetal although the 3d printing would be a cool project. Yes, this could easily be done by any CNC shops but a key part of the design process is minimizing operations and tool changes and simplifying assembly. For example making this from aluminium would require thread cutting operations for the fixations and that's an expensive operation. Alternatively self tapping fixings could be used but they're costly for aluminium, for acetal they're cheap. Same with the sealing, o-rings are almost foolproof, cheap and tolerant to re-assembly but gaskets are expensive, need alining and shouldn't be re-used.

1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.

Any decent flow rate pump would clear that design of air at max RPM, thats not a problem.

3D printing does NOT create perfect surfaces, and every method has trade offs. The most widely available method (material extrusion) wouldn't print in acetate (not many things will) and would have a major problem being sealed even with a gasket and post processing.

Port size and plate thickness are irelevent, you can screw in from the top. Have a look at most CPU watercooling blocks that run 1/2, they're only about a cm deep.

An o-ring is a type of gasket? We're talking about the same thing though, squidgy thing, squidged.

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April 02, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
 #10

Injection molding acetal although the 3d printing would be a cool project. Yes, this could easily be done by any CNC shops but a key part of the design process is minimizing operations and tool changes and simplifying assembly. For example making this from aluminium would require thread cutting operations for the fixations and that's an expensive operation. Alternatively self tapping fixings could be used but they're costly for aluminium, for acetal they're cheap. Same with the sealing, o-rings are almost foolproof, cheap and tolerant to re-assembly but gaskets are expensive, need alining and shouldn't be re-used.

1/2 inch ports would result in plates about an inch thick, port manifolds would allow them to be much thinner. Also that layout would make it difficult to purge air from the system.

Here in Switzerland it is a bit different i guess, there are not many CNC shops out there, you need to have connections to be able to produce, or even get machine time. As the Lancelot Cooler was produced that was indeed the major problem.

Yeah of course the whole cooler would be sealed with a o-ring. Stan you sugesst to work with a 1/4 inlet and outlet? But my concern was the flow rate, simpy more water goes trough a 1/2" then trough 1/4".

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April 02, 2013, 12:28:07 PM
 #11

For Avalon heat level, maybe 3 to 4 parallel water channel is OK. With a DDC pump and 240/360 radiator.
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April 02, 2013, 12:28:57 PM
 #12

This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.

I have a masters in Mechanical Engineer and 7 years experience in cooling design and that plate is a bit weird. You're going to be losing SO much head pressure and slowing your flow down massively - which is something designed to happen in the radiator, NOT the block.

You want as much fluid ramming through the block as possible as opposed to it slowing down and heating up too much. In the radiator you want it slowed down so it gets as close to ambient as possible.

Take a look at typical GPU flow paths. They have minimal pathing and interference:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402876_474673442586692_1610541966_n.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/06-10-12/GPUblock_Side.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yIMMU6W0vyjfTM&tbnid=DhAugiqOkm2ZcM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhz&url=http%3A%2F%2Fekwaterblocks.com%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2FVGA-FC.jpg&ei=U7ZaUdOMEqjF0QWkhYH4Aw&psig=AFQjCNHre9qLYOiZ1y0-iV9gJ2tJFWpsBA&ust=1364985811358312
http://www.bestgraphicscard.net/wp-content/uploads/koolance-470-water-block.jpg

You can use riffles or pins like in CPU blocks to increase surface area if your simulations (...I assume you are using CFD...) need more heat transfer, but please dont meander the flow channel.

http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/03/11094211657l.jpg

Its a shame you claimed to be a MECHANICAL ENGINEER.

Your post is a joke right?

In a closed loop, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE PRESSURE LOST IS.

I would start asking your university for a refund
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April 02, 2013, 12:36:23 PM
 #13

OP,

The simplest and most efficient design would be parallel channels.

The block can be Alu, dont listen to anyone and think cooper is a must. Use Alu with brass radiator. Its so simple you can make that block by hand.

Keep the cost down.
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April 02, 2013, 01:29:59 PM
 #14

This might be a dumb question, but is such a cooling mechanism necessary for an ASIC? I was under the impression being an ASIC it would somehow be cooler than a GPU. If it is necessary, does that mean current ASIC holders are losing hashing rate, or that their current rigs will be more prone to breaking down? Why wouldn't this kind of thing be standard in the Avalons at shipping time if it were required? (Purely asking for education purposes only, I would love to see such things made if they are in fact helpful.)

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April 02, 2013, 01:38:36 PM
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This might be a dumb question, but is such a cooling mechanism necessary for an ASIC? I was under the impression being an ASIC it would somehow be cooler than a GPU. If it is necessary, does that mean current ASIC holders are losing hashing rate, or that their current rigs will be more prone to breaking down? Why wouldn't this kind of thing be standard in the Avalons at shipping time if it were required? (Purely asking for education purposes only, I would love to see such things made if they are in fact helpful.)

ASICs do use quite large amount of power. And this power is turned in to heat.

Generally for semi-coductors driving heat down allows them to run on higher speeds with better stability. Also it does have effect on lifetime. I'm not entirely sure about temperatures current ASICs are running, but lower is better. More stability and longer lifetime.

12pA5nZB5AoXZaaEeoxh5bNqUGXwUUp3Uv
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Feel free to help poor student!
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April 02, 2013, 01:38:56 PM
 #16

fail.....
you need to maximize the surface area and create turbulence, this gives you 'mixing' events inside the liquid and increases your cooling

What might work is something like a miniature heatsink fins fixed to the bottom plate with the top plate fitting over them so that there are fins inside your flow channel, that would maximize your surface area.

Heat is absorbed by the bottom plate, into the fins, which then have the water swirling about them.

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April 02, 2013, 02:58:23 PM
 #17



...
Your post is a joke right?

In a closed loop, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE PRESSURE LOST IS.

I would start asking your university for a refund


You know pressure affects heat transfer rates and cooling medium temperatures, right?

I'm not talking about the affects of pressure loss.

Learn to read.
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April 02, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
 #18

Like i said.... OP, KISS ( keep it simple stupid)

ALL these engineers who want complicated design forget that it works more efficient when the heat source is concentrated in one spot.

The Avalon board distributed the heat source relative evenly. Run many parallel channels and you will have the best bang for buck.

You're not gonna be able to push those ASICs too high anyway.
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April 02, 2013, 03:04:53 PM
 #19



...
Your post is a joke right?

In a closed loop, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE PRESSURE LOST IS.

I would start asking your university for a refund


You know pressure affects heat transfer rates and cooling medium temperatures, right?

I'm not talking about the affects of pressure loss.

Learn to read.


Thanks but its easier just to ignore foolish comments.

Put pressure meters b4 and after the block and tell me the difference is, idiot.
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April 02, 2013, 04:57:35 PM
 #20

This is the raw study of the QCool watercooling element for AVALON ASIC. Since we dont have the device present yet, and we had to estimate the distances it is only possible to present a raw drawing. As soon we can take measurements on the module, the QCool element will be completed and published.
The price is estimate to be 3 BTC for a 3 modules Avalon Asic.

I have a masters in Mechanical Engineer and 7 years experience in cooling design and that plate is a bit weird. You're going to be losing SO much head pressure and slowing your flow down massively - which is something designed to happen in the radiator, NOT the block.

You want as much fluid ramming through the block as possible as opposed to it slowing down and heating up too much. In the radiator you want it slowed down so it gets as close to ambient as possible.

Take a look at typical GPU flow paths. They have minimal pathing and interference:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/402876_474673442586692_1610541966_n.jpg
http://www.techpowerup.com/img/06-10-12/GPUblock_Side.jpg
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=yIMMU6W0vyjfTM&tbnid=DhAugiqOkm2ZcM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwADhz&url=http%3A%2F%2Fekwaterblocks.com%2Fuploads%2Fimages%2FVGA-FC.jpg&ei=U7ZaUdOMEqjF0QWkhYH4Aw&psig=AFQjCNHre9qLYOiZ1y0-iV9gJ2tJFWpsBA&ust=1364985811358312
http://www.bestgraphicscard.net/wp-content/uploads/koolance-470-water-block.jpg

You can use riffles or pins like in CPU blocks to increase surface area if your simulations (...I assume you are using CFD...) need more heat transfer, but please dont meander the flow channel.

http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2008/03/11094211657l.jpg

Its a shame you claimed to be a MECHANICAL ENGINEER.

Your post is a joke right?

In a closed loop, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE PRESSURE LOST IS.

I would start asking your university for a refund


xD Of course it does! If you have massive minor losses [the frictional losses due to flow geometry] then you lose head pressure.

Lower head pressure -> lower volume flow rate
Lower volume flow rate -> lower heat transfer rates at block and radiator
Lower heat transfer rates at block and radiator -> lower system heat transfer at given temp
Lower system heat transfer at given temp -> worse cooling system
Worse cooling system -> money printer not as cool

You want all of the pressure loss to be in head pressure and major frictional losses [frictional losses due to the liquid flow].

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