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Author Topic: Bitcoin hater logic  (Read 969 times)
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April 02, 2013, 10:54:17 AM
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The price is going up? - "IT'S A BUBBLE! BITCOIN WILL DIE SOON! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"

Price going down? - "IT'S A CRASH! BITCOIN IS DYING! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"

Price staying constant? - "THE BITCOIN ECONOMY IS STAGNATING! IT'S GOING TO DIE SOON! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"


 Tongue

I am getting tired of this. I will try to avoid reading the comments under news articles that mention bitcoin from now on. Nothing new to learn there, which is kind of sad, I am actually really interested in the opinions of those who are sceptical of bitcoins (at least if they know what they are talking about).
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April 02, 2013, 10:58:25 AM
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Yes, it's exhausting. However, having the price go up 4000% helps.

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April 02, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
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^^^ Having the price go up 4000% makes it look like a pump and dump, a bubble, a ponzi scheme, and anything other than a legitimate currency, and only feeds the bubble arguments. As much as "investors" (gamblers) want bitcoin's price to skyrocket, stagnation would be best for it if it's intended use is a currency. Obviously we've got a lot of skyrocketing to do until everyone used it, but it's neither possible nor a good idea to have it increasing non-stop.

The price is going up? - "IT'S A BUBBLE! BITCOIN WILL DIE SOON! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"

Price going down? - "IT'S A CRASH! BITCOIN IS DYING! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"

Price staying constant? - "THE BITCOIN ECONOMY IS STAGNATING! IT'S GOING TO DIE SOON! GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!"


 Tongue

I am getting tired of this. I will try to avoid reading the comments under news articles that mention bitcoin from now on. Nothing new to learn there, which is kind of sad, I am actually really interested in the opinions of those who are sceptical of bitcoins (at least if they know what they are talking about).

There's nothing wrong with those points individually, but I agree that if those points are all coming from the same person, they are likely trolling to get a rise out of you. Again, individually, those are all potentially good points and may or may not be correct at any given time.

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April 02, 2013, 11:03:48 AM
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^^^ Having the price go up 4000% makes it look like a pump and dump, a bubble, a ponzi scheme, and anything other than a legitimate currency, and only feeds the bubble arguments. As much as "investors" (gamblers) want bitcoin's price to skyrocket, stagnation would be best for it if it's intended use is a currency. Obviously we've got a lot of skyrocketing to do until everyone used it, but it's neither possible nor a good idea to have it increasing non-stop.

Explain then how people are supposed to buy bitcoins if they want to use it while not making price to go up? There cant be fixed price because you will compare it to what? Price of  Bread?

And considering what OP said i think people simply hate things they dont understand.

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April 02, 2013, 11:12:24 AM
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Explain then how people are supposed to buy bitcoins if they want to use it while not making price to go up
Well to that point, anywhere *but* the exchanges will allow you to do just that, whether it be in-person trading (localbitcoins), on IRC, or anywhere for that matter. Volume of transactions doesn't currently automatically increase or decrease the price. As it is, the major exchanges such as MtGox are the ones responsible for that (something that should not be taken lightly to a supposed decentralized currency). Only using major exchanges will cause the price to go up or down drastically.

A perfect example of this is when Tony of BitPay was dumping BFL's $200,000 or so in bitcoins back when the price was barely $8 a coin. He did it over the course of a week or two, and mostly on IRC/Skype.

I'm pretty sure that's not what you were asking though, you were most likely referring to natural adoption causing a spike in spot price. I do not deny this at all, and even mentioned exactly that in my previous post. It is inevitable that we will get bubbles like this due to patterns of adoption, each time a major company or service starts accepting them (like if Amazon or Ebay suddenly accepted them for example). After that though, if it's intended to be used as a legitimate currency, there really is no sense in the price skyrocketing continuously and we do have direct control of that. We are the ones who decide at what price to sell and buy at. Frankly speaking, I consider anyone buying right now at $100 to be a little on the "cool-aid" side of bitcoin, and taking a great risk. If they can afford it though, who cares.

Later on when people are buying and selling bitcoins and not just buying, it would make sense that the spot price would stabalize again, something necessary for a legitimate currency. This would enable people the freedom to spend their money on services and products regularly, instead of hoarding them, expecting to make a fortune (gambling), which effectively makes the currency useless for anything but speculation.

There cant be fixed price because you will compare it to what? Bread?
Wasn't referring to the act of *pegging* it to something, I was referring to the natural fluctuation of price in the current market in the range of $20 up or down in a single day (making it impossible to use as a legitimate currency).

And considering what OP said i think people simply hate things they dont understand.
This is absolutely a well known and documented trait in human beings in general. We fear what we don't understand and assume that it will hurt us (just look at the recent arguments regarding gun legislation). I will never argue that a large part of the claims against bitcoin are unfounded and uneducated, the same kind the telephone, electricity, mobile phones, computers, the internet, even automobiles all experienced in their infancy.

To discount them *all* as being baseless just because you don't agree with them however is asinine. Many of the arguments come from legitimate fears. Some of the arguments I've seen, I still can't help but agree with and will forever remain on the fence about until such a time as Bitcoin itself proves me otherwise.

Case in point, when someone sincerely asks "How could a legitimate currency increase in value 20% in a single day? That's ridiculous! It must be a ponzi scam..", the correct response is "Yes, it is ridiculous. It will be ridiculous for quite some time as it's a new project that has yet to settle down. Please don't use bitcoin with any amount of money you can't afford to use, and hang in for the long ride. It's still very much an experiment and everyone is eager to find out how things will go! As for being a ponzi, I haven't seen any proof supporting that, but I continue to keep aware of the arguments and only participate in the areas I'm comfortable with, never doing more than I can't afford to lose."

Instead, we have the psycho-religious bitcoiners outright lying to themselves and everyone else, "Nonsense! It's good for everyone! Bitcoin will save the world! SHUT UP GIVE US YOUR MONEY! BITCOIN WILL BE THE ONLY CURRENCY EVENTUALLY AND CRUSH EVERY GOVERNMENT.", basically making everyone who holds bitcoin look like a pump-and-dump, tinfoil hat wearing, ponzi scheme shill. It's embarrassing to those of us who just love the technological aspect and want to help participate in the experiment. People have quit PETA and GreenPeace for exactly this reason; they went into it thinking they would do some good, and found that the people in charge were raving lunatics with their own agendas and nonsensical remedies. I for one would never join PETA, even if I believed animals had souls, because PETA is nuts. I have joined up in Bitcoin though and even co-founded the Bitcoin Magazine, but only because I believed it needed more *balanced* arguments, not more one-sided cheerleading and preaching (I'm actually seriously saddened when I think about the future of that magazine becoming just a circle-jerk fanzine).

But I digress, when it comes to arguing with others about Bitcoin,  you know what they say, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.". Don't argue with them, agree with their good points, accept the fact that Bitcoin isn't exactly the shining image of a perfect currency, and maybe they'd try it out on their own accord once they realized you're not an unstable psycophants or trying to convince them to buy like some pusher in an alley.

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April 02, 2013, 11:23:45 AM
 #6

Well there are legitimate reasons to be cautious, the world we live in. However, as QE Infinity continues and the euro area keeps dumping cash into the black hole which is the banking system, there are legitimate reasons for thinking it is not a ponzi scheme.

Sure it could be pump and dump, but it could also be a real trend. RISK is the name of the game, lack of it has put the world in the place it is now.

Just don't put all your eggs in one basket.
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April 02, 2013, 12:53:24 PM
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In my opinion Bitcoin is better off if people stop thinking about it in terms of an investment and instead see as more of a special currency.  It probably won't end well as a bubble truly does form because when it crashes it will likely crash hard as all the people using it for investment purposes leave.  True stability will come from the people using it to buy and sell.
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April 02, 2013, 12:58:36 PM
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In my opinion Bitcoin is better off if people stop thinking about it in terms of an investment and instead see as more of a special currency.  It probably won't end well as a bubble truly does form because when it crashes it will likely crash hard as all the people using it for investment purposes leave.  True stability will come from the people using it to buy and sell.

it is treated as investment because there is nothing in the world that is not loosing value and at the same time does have bitcoin liquidity.

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April 02, 2013, 01:01:49 PM
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Thats because they donn't understand that BTC was soooo undervalued in its underground days, they will find out that at the moment its like buying kg of gold for $100,- when they look back and then they will pay $100,- for mBTC...let them hate for now they will beg you later to buy your early BTC.... Wink

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April 02, 2013, 01:22:57 PM
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Thats because they donn't understand that BTC was soooo undervalued in its underground days, they will find out that at the moment its like buying kg of gold for $100,- when they look back and then they will pay $100,- for mBTC...let them hate for now they will beg you later to buy your early BTC.... Wink


Or, they'll find out that they were right when Bitcoin 2.0 (different system/blockchain) comes out and everyone here is left holding a bunch of worthless tokens.

A certain level of skepticism is healthy, even if you're an obvious bitcoin fanboy as you appear to be. Making claims that "they'll be sorry!" and "it's only gonna go up uP UP!" make you look like an MLM "salesperson" (read: shill). Do not discount people's genuine concerns with their livelihood being destroyed by an anonymous internet experiment as just being "non-believers". As with any religious movements or cults, being blindly supportive is even worse than being ignorantly against; the ignorant can always learn.

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April 02, 2013, 02:31:50 PM
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Thats because they donn't understand that BTC was soooo undervalued in its underground days, they will find out that at the moment its like buying kg of gold for $100,- when they look back and then they will pay $100,- for mBTC...let them hate for now they will beg you later to buy your early BTC.... Wink


Or, they'll find out that they were right when Bitcoin 2.0 (different system/blockchain) comes out and everyone here is left holding a bunch of worthless tokens.

A certain level of skepticism is healthy, even if you're an obvious bitcoin fanboy as you appear to be. Making claims that "they'll be sorry!" and "it's only gonna go up uP UP!" make you look like an MLM "salesperson" (read: shill). Do not discount people's genuine concerns with their livelihood being destroyed by an anonymous internet experiment as just being "non-believers". As with religions/cults, being blindly pro-bitcoin is even worse than being anti-bitcoin.

All iam saying is that the price rise is only due to getting to a REAL value...the rest your are saying does not matter at all, and yes iam a fanboy and yes iam a sales man a real businessman, not one sitting at home with to much time shitting on people on forums like this...cheerzzzz.. Wink

Put your money were your mouth is…       #coinderdotcom
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April 02, 2013, 02:45:03 PM
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When something new is out, there is always someone who go against it. I'm a fan of bitcoins so I am supporting it. However, having it's value rises 2x,3x,4x...in just a couple weeks does make some people wonder if bitcoin is really legit and if it is currently overvalued.
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April 02, 2013, 02:50:15 PM
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When something new is out, there is always someone who go against it. I'm a fan of bitcoins so I am supporting it. However, having it's value rises 2x,3x,4x...in just a couple weeks does make some people wonder if bitcoin is really legit and if it is currently overvalued.

Well, when your major exchange site suddenly locks up whenever the price is moving down and previous bids/asks disappear (without anyone being able to prove who they even came from), it calls into question the validity of our pricing logic in the first place. I don't blame them for calling it a pump-n-dump. Where is the transparency or decentralization when it comes to pricing? Let's get some username hashes connected to the bids/asks at least so that we know it's not MtGox themselves propping up the price in order to make a fortune and control the market.

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April 02, 2013, 02:51:42 PM
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I remember when "pump and dump" meant stringing a girl along until you got in her pants and then breaking up with her. #oldschool
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April 02, 2013, 02:56:27 PM
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lol

฿it 4 ฿rain : ฿itcoin
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April 02, 2013, 03:09:15 PM
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I can totally understand people being skeptical about bitcoin and thinking that something computer generated that rises in value like it has may not be as valuable as the prices state.  That is why I hedge bitcoins with other currencies (actually just dollars now).  That way if there is a drop in price I can buy again and that way if it totally crashes I am not screwed.  Also in case the dollar totally crashes I will not be completely screwed either and maybe I can even buy dollars lower than I am now.

Let them hate, and it actually makes sense to listen to critics.  I am personally skeptical of the MTGOX group and their association with early adopters and handling most currency to bitcoin transactions on earth, but Microsoft had a PC monopoly for years and still does and we all lived.

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