Proactive fighting with spammers. Doing it the right way

[Wendigo]

Account sales can't  be banned because they can be facilitated off this forum and you may never know what deal has gone through and where. How can you control something that doesn't happen within the reach of the forum??

[Lauda]

Account sales can't  be banned because they can be facilitated off this forum and you may never know what deal has gone through and where. How can you control something that doesn't happen within the reach of the forum??

No, you are wrong. Account sales can't be stopped, but they can be made bannable. If we make this a punishable offense, this introduces a huge risk to both parties involved in such trades. I'm pretty sure that this would have a decent effect on this though.

[BitHodler]

Looks like someone is desperately trying to get rid of a (most likely banned) bitmixer Hero account through an auction right now.

I've just looked into that; statistically the odds are very high in favor of the account being banned.
But let us not discuss Bitmixer specifically here. We will be observe the effectiveness of the 'put stress on the manager' method after some time. Additionally, I'd like to hear what people think about making account sales banned?

If I had the power in my hands, then I immediately put the rule to work that all account sales are prohibited, plus the fact that buyer and seller will receive a temp ban for actually doing that.

I personally don't see why this isn't being implemented yet as the majority of the people here are badly against the practice of selling accounts.

[buxlover]

Account sales can't  be banned because they can be facilitated off this forum and you may never know what deal has gone through and where. How can you control something that doesn't happen within the reach of the forum??

No, you are wrong. Account sales can't be stopped, but they can be made bannable. If we make this a punishable offense, this introduces a huge risk to both parties involved in such trades. I'm pretty sure that this would have a decent effect on this though.

I don't think banning account selling would have decent effect since we are not able to detect many sales which are done inside this forum. If sales are encouraged outside this forum, our chances of finding sold accounts becomes slim.

But i would like to see banning alt accounts, which is main cause for selling accounts and spamming. Single person creating multi accounts and posting shit for few months and sell them with high forum rank to some newbie scammer. And also lending with bitcointalk account as collateral adds up to this queue for spamming, But happens mostly when the lender try to sell that account for defaulting and this encourages newbies to create multi account just for lending.

I don't like the reputation is based on the number of days and posts rather we need the ranking to be based on some other factors which could actually determine the their reputation.

[botany]

And by the way I have seen people talking to their alts in the same thread quoting their own posts and speaking as if they were 2 different persons. There are some real nut jobs on this forum and before the whole thing goes to shit something radical must be done. I haven't seen anything like this on other forums. I guess the incentive to gain more coins is pushing people in the abnormal behavior. Greed is bad okay?

You can report them.  If it's proven that they're just one person talking to himself for signature earning I'm sure the mods will do something about it.

Edit:
Hm.  Looks like bitmixer's campaign is restarting under Lauda's management.

They can start by having a look at this thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378965.0
A ton of posters who can be removed straight away.

[Lauda]

I don't think banning account selling would have decent effect since we are not able to detect many sales which are done inside this forum. If sales are encouraged outside this forum, our chances of finding sold accounts becomes slim.

We can actually. We're aware of plenty of public sales, and there's a fair amount of accounts that have been tagged for this very reason. In addition to that, the administration has more tools to detect these. As I said, the primary thing about the idea is the added risk of a permanent ban (both sides).

But i would like to see banning alt accounts, which is main cause for selling accounts and spamming. Single person creating multi accounts and posting shit for few months and sell them with high forum rank to some newbie scammer. And also lending with bitcointalk account as collateral adds up to this queue for spamming, But happens mostly when the lender try to sell that account for defaulting and this encourages newbies to create multi account just for lending.

I think that having one or two alts is fine, and kind-of-encouraged in a free speech environment (e.g. a case where stating something may receive 'negative feedback' on your main account). The problem is the people account farming (we're talking about tens to hundreds of accounts).

I don't like the reputation is based on the number of days and posts rather we need the ranking to be based on some other factors which could actually determine the their reputation.

That's not reputation, that's activity.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378965.0
A ton of posters who can be removed straight away.

Update: All of those have been banned yesterday already.

[buxlover]

But i would like to see banning alt accounts, which is main cause for selling accounts and spamming. Single person creating multi accounts and posting shit for few months and sell them with high forum rank to some newbie scammer. And also lending with bitcointalk account as collateral adds up to this queue for spamming, But happens mostly when the lender try to sell that account for defaulting and this encourages newbies to create multi account just for lending.

I think that having one or two alts is fine, and kind-of-encouraged in a free speech environment (e.g. a case where stating something may receive 'negative feedback' on your main account). The problem is the people account farming (we're talking about tens to hundreds of accounts).

That lead to worst situation like someone can scam with main account and leave the account after negative feedback. just create an alt to do the same or otherwise

I don't like the reputation is based on the number of days and posts rather we need the ranking to be based on some other factors which could actually determine the their reputation.

That's not reputation, that's activity.

But the forum works that way in general higher activity rank members are more reputable and newbies are least. don't you agree this is the mindset of most forum members and visitors

[1Referee]

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

[Lauda]

That lead to worst situation like someone can scam with main account and leave the account after negative feedback. just create an alt to do the same or otherwise

No. I'm telling you what the situation is now, and what may be acceptable. Having an alt account just to discuss something is fine in my view (obviously if you don't abuse it for any other purposes).

But the forum works that way in general higher activity rank members are more reputable and newbies are least. don't you agree this is the mindset of most forum members and visitors

No, that's not how the forum works. You don't get to blame the forum because the crowd isn't properly acquainted with how it works.

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

Well, some argue that you can't halt account sales completely (which is a straw-man) and I'm sure that the staff is well aware of this. Others argue that the prices of accounts will go up which would encourage more farming, and so on. Generally speaking, I do believe that it would take a decent hit on the spammers market. Keep in mind that: If you get busted for trading even once, you'd get permanently banned (along with any accounts that you own). If that isn't considered a high risk/low profit trade, then I don't know what is.

[botany]

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

You are wrong. The reason that account sales are not banned is that it is not possible to enforce.
Trading of accounts would just move outside the forum.

Edit: FAQ

Q: I saw a guy selling Bitcointalk accounts. Why is that allowed?
A: Since we can't effectively prevent these sales (proxies, TOR, sales in other forums), we don't because otherwise we would be giving the users a false sense of security.

[1Referee]

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

You are wrong. The reason that account sales are not banned is that it is not possible to enforce.
Trading of accounts would just move outside the forum.

I guess you didn't notice that I was talking about enforcing a ban policy purely focused on this forum, and not about what happens outside this forum. I know that it's not possible to hunt down account sellers operating outside the forum. That's something we should not be focusing at as that is something out of everyone's reach here.

[LoyceV]

Looks like Lauda has been going strong with cleaning up the Bitmixer campaign. If that means that I get banned as well, then it is what it is. But it's a good effort to keep the forum clean.

I like this plot twist! Although it struck me as dubious at first, offering a job to a Staff-member after messages regarding spam, it actually is a good solution. This way Staff gets paid to clean up instead of doing it for free, and the polluter pays.

I'd like to hear what people think about making account sales banned?

If Paypal can't stop it, I have no illusions thinking Bitcointalk can stop it. Email addresses and IPs can change, which makes it very hard to detect a sale. Even if 2 accounts were originally created from the same IP, and one of them moves to a different IP, it could have been 2 different people, for example in a student house.
In my opinion, the only thing Bitcointalk can really do, is ban the account-for-sale-threads on this site, after which sales continue on other forums.

Well, some argue that you can't halt account sales completely (which is a straw-man) and I'm sure that the staff is well aware of this.

While reading on, you say exactly what I just typed Banning sales will most likely limit it, but botany has a point too pointing at the "false sense of security" it can give. Just like obvious scam threads aren't deleted.

[gentlemand]

They can start by having a look at this thread.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378965.0
A ton of posters who can be removed straight away.

My beautiful thread was turned into smoking ruins. It was a genuine question. My curiosity wasn't particularly sated by the quality of the answers.

[richardsNY]

The important thing is that: You realize that it is your fault. You want to improve. You put in effort into 2. There are likely going to be people attacking me from heavy sides due to this, and those are the people that have really deserved to be banned forever. This is why I'll run a separation of the blacklist into people that are banned forever and those that may get un-banned if significant improvement is shown.

Yup, it's difficult to blame someone else as I am responsible for my own post quality. That's why I will put more effort and thought in my posts. People that get mad for being kicked out should look at their post history. If they then still don't realize why they are kicked out, then they never will.

[rizzlarolla]

As I said, the primary thing about the idea is the added risk of a permanent ban (both sides).

Update: All of those have been banned yesterday already.

I all for it Lauda.

I think members should also be able to see who is and is not banned, past, present and future.
It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.

Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

[Lauda]

I all for it Lauda.

I think members should also be able to see who is and is not banned, past, present and future.

There is really almost no valid reason for one to sell their account here. Even if they were desperate for money, then the best thing to do would be to put it in as collateral for a loan.

It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.
Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

[rizzlarolla]

It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.
Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

Can you see how it would be helpful to us members? If so, could you try to find out if possible please.

-----

Look at RealMalatesta's account. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=321061

RealMalatesta has been a good member here for years. Now sold or hacked, and spam posting.
(his last real post June 20, his first spam post under new ownership October 20)

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

[Lauda]

Can you see how it would be helpful to us members? If so, could you try to find out if possible please.

It is trivial for moderators to check whether someone is banned or not. I just have to take a look at their profile. I'm not sure if we should do it though, but in this clear case the member is not banned.

Look at RealMalatesta's account. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=321061

RealMalatesta has been a good member here for years. Now sold or hacked, and spam posting.
(his last real post June 20, his first spam post under new ownership October 20)

Yes, I think I've reported this one in the cleanup yesterday.

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

I would permanently ban this one as it likely correlates with many other 1 line spammers that used to be in Bitmixer. I do not have the tools/access to recognize sold accounts.

[LoyceV]

There is really almost no valid reason for one to sell their account here. Even if they were desperate for money, then the best thing to do would be to put it in as collateral for a loan.

The account only has value as collateral if it can be sold. And if that's the "almost no valid reason" you mean, it could also be abused to sell an account: take a fake loan, default the loan, sell the account.

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

[rizzlarolla]

It is trivial for moderators to check whether someone is banned or not. I just have to take a look at their profile.

But a real pain in the butt for us.

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

Excellent.

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

I would permanently ban this one as it likely correlates with many other 1 line spammers that used to be in Bitmixer. I do not have the tools/access to recognize sold accounts.

I was particularly wondering if us members would have ways of detecting sold accounts.
My example way seems good. Any other ways?