April 3 BFL ASIC update.

[creativex]

My uneducated guess would be is they realized that they won't be able to build it. Too hot, over 9000watt power consumption... So out of stock means they won't be making it. So those who bought it will either get equivalent in Japapeños + SC singles 
or simply quietly get refund those people. Or maybe in the fall they will come up with such device... Anyone else have their guesses?

My maths brain's not working this morning.  The mini-rig was going to contain 192 boards of 8 chips.  Given that the chips/boards aren't performing as anticipated, how many of the sub-spec chips/boards will it take to make up 1500 GH and what will the power draw be?  Is the total wattage going to create issues for people (I'm on 240 v with 20 amp circuits but I know that the standard maximum load per circuit is different for those on lower voltages)?

It appears as though their chips are the problem so power consumption could be as high as 7.5w/Gh. That'd be a nuclear power plant like 11250w @ 1500Gh, but I've seen people estimate as "low" as 9000w. Yes that will definitely be a problem.

[repentance]

It appears as though their chips are the problem so power consumption could be as high as 7.5w/Gh. That'd be a nuclear power plant like 11250w @ 1500Gh, but I've seen people estimate as "low" as 9000w. Yes that will definitely be a problem.

I noticed Josh saying that they'll ship whatever it takes to achieve hashrate and I also noticed him saying that people would have the option of waiting for gen 2 if they didn't want sub-spec units, but I haven't noticed anyone from BFL saying that people can have refunds if neither of those options are acceptable.  Did I just miss it or has it not been said?

[MrTeal]

My uneducated guess would be is they realized that they won't be able to build it. Too hot, over 9000watt power consumption... So out of stock means they won't be making it. So those who bought it will either get equivalent in Japapeños + SC singles 
or simply quietly get refund those people. Or maybe in the fall they will come up with such device... Anyone else have their guesses?

My maths brain's not working this morning.  The mini-rig was going to contain 192 boards of 8 chips.  Given that the chips/boards aren't performing as anticipated, how many of the sub-spec chips/boards will it take to make up 1500 GH and what will the power draw be?  Is the total wattage going to create issues for people (I'm on 240 v with 20 amp circuits but I know that the standard maximum load per circuit is different for those on lower voltages)?

The minirig was to contain 24 boards with 8 chips each for 192 chips in total.
Latest from Josh is that they were able to get a board working at 34GH/s using 150W, so 4.4J/GH at the current time. They claim to be able to be able to get that down further, but that remains to be seen. If they can't they'd likely have to split a single Minirig up into multiple units, possibly 3 or 4 depending on how low they can get the power.

[creativex]

It appears as though their chips are the problem so power consumption could be as high as 7.5w/Gh. That'd be a nuclear power plant like 11250w @ 1500Gh, but I've seen people estimate as "low" as 9000w. Yes that will definitely be a problem.

I noticed Josh saying that they'll ship whatever it takes to achieve hashrate and I also noticed him saying that people would have the option of waiting for gen 2 if they didn't want sub-spec units, but I haven't noticed anyone from BFL saying that people can have refunds if neither of those options are acceptable.  Did I just miss it or has it not been said?

All I know for sure is that they added that nonsense about "all sales are final", though I'd give them a quarter if their policy withstood even a weak legal challenge. Trapping people into non-refundable pre-orders while failing to deliver on any specs or shipping dates is...somewhat inconsistent with FTC & consumer protection regs.

Edit: Thanks for the update Teal. 6600w is still a problem though and just splitting it into two "little" minirigs might make it possible to plug it into a deadicated circuit, but it doesn't improve profitability.

[repentance]

All I know for sure is that they added that nonsense about "all sales are final", though I'd give them a quarter if their policy withstood even a weak legal challenge. Trapping people into non-refundable pre-orders while failing to deliver on any specs or shipping dates is...somewhat inconsistent with FTC & consumer protection regs.

They put that on the website a month or so back and a couple of people reported asking for a refund and being told by Jody that refunds were now on a case by case basis as all sales were final (a stark contrast to her "we understand if you can't stay the distance and will be happy to give you a refund" statement of last year).

If I had to guess, I'd say that they wanted to minimise the possibility of people cancelling their orders and requesting refunds once they were committed to the bulk order for 63,000 chips (and however many corresponding boards).

It seems really unlikely that their "all sales are final" statement would have any legal validity under the circumstances, especially as "two months or more" is so vague.  If the customer agreed to a specific delivery date which was months in the future, it might be different, but essentially they're trying to say we'll deliver "whenever".

Of course the legality or otherwise of them taking pre-orders, saying "all sales are final", delivering a product which is materially different than what was promised, etc is pretty irrelevant unless people choose to take action under whatever consumer protection laws are available to them - something people are likely to do only if BFL starts refusing refunds en masse.

Personally, I find the lack of communication from BFL staff other than Josh appalling.  When a project goes this wrong, there should be public statements and reassurances from the GM, the CEO, etc - it shouldn't all be left to the COO who is already trying to answer 1001 questions regarding matters where he doesn't even have direct knowledge.  In my opinion, BFL has let Josh down badly and it's about time that some of their other executive staff stepped up and took some responsibility here.  Half the time I get the impression that Josh has been kept in the dark and fed bullshit just as much as customers.

[Minor Miner]

All I know for sure is that they added that nonsense about "all sales are final", though I'd give them a quarter if their policy withstood even a weak legal challenge. Trapping people into non-refundable pre-orders while failing to deliver on any specs or shipping dates is...somewhat inconsistent with FTC & consumer protection regs.

They put that on the website a month or so back and a couple of people reported asking for a refund and being told by Jody that refunds were now on a case by case basis as all sales were final (a stark contrast to her "we understand if you can't stay the distance and will be happy to give you a refund" statement of last year).

If I had to guess, I'd say that they wanted to minimise the possibility of people cancelling their orders and requesting refunds once they were committed to the bulk order for 63,000 chips (and however many corresponding boards).

It seems really unlikely that their "all sales are final" statement would have any legal validity under the circumstances, especially as "two months or more" is so vague.  If the customer agreed to a specific delivery date which was months in the future, it might be different, but essentially they're trying to say we'll deliver "whenever".

Of course the legality or otherwise of them taking pre-orders, saying "all sales are final", delivering a product which is materially different than what was promised, etc is pretty irrelevant unless people choose to take action under whatever consumer protection laws are available to them - something people are likely to do only if BFL starts refusing refunds en masse.

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

[AndyRossy]

didnt BFL ship a few days ago?

[Minor Miner]

didnt BFL ship a few days ago?

yes, apparently they completely shipped all the MiniRigs that were available.  just in case, this is extreme sarcasm......

[creativex]

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

[Minor Miner]

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

So, tell me.   Why do you think none of these people will do anything about it?   There is more than enough information on public forms typed by Josh himself to convict him of federal and state crimes.  Sonny is in clear violation of his parole.   It would be simple for any of them to hire an attorney for and less than $5,000 FORCE the authorities in KS/MO and the US attorney to press charges.   Why don't they?  I personally do not care.   I was going to buy some miniRigs (until I spent 2 hours on the web looking things up) so now I am just the curious on looker.   Do you REALLY believe that none of these people have figure out they have been taken?   Even in the best case scenario, they were de-frauded out of money to fund a venture to make a bunch of amateurs rich.   Why don't any of them do anything?   Nasser could be likely be charged in france (and definitely in the US) if he actually works for Soc Gen.   And, Soc Gen would get fined for lack of compliance over him.   Sonny could get back to club fed.   Josh could be charged by the SEC and by Revenue (I would be more worried about Revenue as they have a 100% conviction rate).   All, these state and fed prosecutors want to make names for themselves and what a better way than to bust some scam in "bitcoin" the newest headline (which they want to discredit anyway).    So, why do all of them do nothing?

[Matthew N. Wright]

why do all of them do nothing?

Everyone wants to stay behind their computer and bitch on an internet forum.

[Unacceptable]

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

So, tell me.   Why do you think none of these people will do anything about it?   There is more than enough information on public forms typed by Josh himself to convict him of federal and state crimes.  Sonny is in clear violation of his parole.   It would be simple for any of them to hire an attorney for and less than $5,000 FORCE the authorities in KS/MO and the US attorney to press charges.   Why don't they?  I personally do not care.   I was going to buy some miniRigs (until I spent 2 hours on the web looking things up) so now I am just the curious on looker.   Do you REALLY believe that none of these people have figure out they have been taken?   Even in the best case scenario, they were de-frauded out of money to fund a venture to make a bunch of amateurs rich.   Why don't any of them do anything?   Nasser could be likely be charged in france (and definitely in the US) if he actually works for Soc Gen.   And, Soc Gen would get fined for lack of compliance over him.   Sonny could get back to club fed.   Josh could be charged by the SEC and by Revenue (I would be more worried about Revenue as they have a 100% conviction rate).   All, these state and fed prosecutors want to make names for themselves and what a better way than to bust some scam in "bitcoin" the newest headline (which they want to discredit anyway).    So, why do all of them do nothing?

No authority is going to do anything because Bitcoin is considered "game money" so to speak.I got hacked for 38BTC @ Mtgox a year ago,went to a sheriff  I know in my hometown & bounced the idea of filing a report about my loss.He just had a funny look & asked "what's a Bitcoin??"................................................

[Minor Miner]

why do all of them do nothing?

Everyone wants to stay behind their computer and bitch on an internet forum.

Interesting.   You have an "untrustworthy" label under your name.   Like early america's scarlet letter?
Did not see that under Josh nor Inaba's name.  Does that mean you are LESS worthy of my trust than they are?   This is a very interesting little village you have here.

[repentance]

why do all of them do nothing?

Everyone wants to stay behind their computer and bitch on an internet forum.

And no-one cares if BFL is shady as hell as long as there's a chance that BFL might eventually ship a product which makes them easy money.

No authority is going to do anything because Bitcoin is considered "game money" so to speak.I got hacked for 38BTC @ Mtgox a year ago,went to a sheriff  I know in my hometown & bounced the idea of filing a report about my loss.He just had a funny look & asked "what's a Bitcoin??"................................................

You should probably have filed a report with one of the various computer crime units.  These types of crimes don't really seem to fall within the operations of local law enforcement.  We already know that various federal agencies are aware of Bitcoin (and many of them are responsible for prosecuting various computer based crimes), so they're probably the best bet for reporting stuff.

[creativex]

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

So, tell me.   Why do you think none of these people will do anything about it?   There is more than enough information on public forms typed by Josh himself to convict him of federal and state crimes.  Sonny is in clear violation of his parole.   It would be simple for any of them to hire an attorney for and less than $5,000 FORCE the authorities in KS/MO and the US attorney to press charges.   Why don't they?  I personally do not care.   I was going to buy some miniRigs (until I spent 2 hours on the web looking things up) so now I am just the curious on looker.   Do you REALLY believe that none of these people have figure out they have been taken?   Even in the best case scenario, they were de-frauded out of money to fund a venture to make a bunch of amateurs rich.   Why don't any of them do anything?   Nasser could be likely be charged in france (and definitely in the US) if he actually works for Soc Gen.   And, Soc Gen would get fined for lack of compliance over him.   Sonny could get back to club fed.   Josh could be charged by the SEC and by Revenue (I would be more worried about Revenue as they have a 100% conviction rate).   All, these state and fed prosecutors want to make names for themselves and what a better way than to bust some scam in "bitcoin" the newest headline (which they want to discredit anyway).    So, why do all of them do nothing?

No authority is going to do anything because Bitcoin is considered "game money" so to speak.I got hacked for 38BTC @ Mtgox a year ago,went to a sheriff  I know in my hometown & bounced the idea of filing a report about my loss.He just had a funny look & asked "what's a Bitcoin??"................................................

That doesn't wash though. BFL like BTCFPGA accepted credit card payments. The "authorities" do take wire fraud seriously.

I do not know why more people tolerate BFL's scammy bs. If you search my posts you'll find I've asked the same questions many times. One fella has been in contact with the AG's office and presented evidence of said contact, but I think he let it go after a point.

[Unacceptable]

Both of you have valid points.   The problem is that the people they have ripped off are not acting rationally.   They do not want to see any of the facts, only the riches that are coming to them.... This is a classic in MLM and pyramid schemes.   They victim does not want to "give up his place" as it now has a perceived value to him.   A good way to stop the ponzi from falling apart is to RAISE price.  That makes the people already fleeced perceive that their "position" or place in line is EVEN more valuable.   Go over and read the shoutbox at BFL and tell me if the people discussing there will not be in a pysch 101 textbook someday.....   "wow, this price increase just made my July order EVEN MORE valuable"....

Agreed, I think that's precisely what they've done. Also they've effectively negated the discounts of those silly vouchers being given to those early investors as compensation for BFL's scammy behavior.

So, tell me.   Why do you think none of these people will do anything about it?   There is more than enough information on public forms typed by Josh himself to convict him of federal and state crimes.  Sonny is in clear violation of his parole.   It would be simple for any of them to hire an attorney for and less than $5,000 FORCE the authorities in KS/MO and the US attorney to press charges.   Why don't they?  I personally do not care.   I was going to buy some miniRigs (until I spent 2 hours on the web looking things up) so now I am just the curious on looker.   Do you REALLY believe that none of these people have figure out they have been taken?   Even in the best case scenario, they were de-frauded out of money to fund a venture to make a bunch of amateurs rich.   Why don't any of them do anything?   Nasser could be likely be charged in france (and definitely in the US) if he actually works for Soc Gen.   And, Soc Gen would get fined for lack of compliance over him.   Sonny could get back to club fed.   Josh could be charged by the SEC and by Revenue (I would be more worried about Revenue as they have a 100% conviction rate).   All, these state and fed prosecutors want to make names for themselves and what a better way than to bust some scam in "bitcoin" the newest headline (which they want to discredit anyway).    So, why do all of them do nothing?

No authority is going to do anything because Bitcoin is considered "game money" so to speak.I got hacked for 38BTC @ Mtgox a year ago,went to a sheriff  I know in my hometown & bounced the idea of filing a report about my loss.He just had a funny look & asked "what's a Bitcoin??"................................................

That doesn't wash though. BFL like BTCFPGA accepted credit card payments. The "authorities" do take wire fraud seriously.

I do not know why more people tolerate BFL's scammy bs. If you search my posts you'll find I've asked the same questions many times. One fella has been in contact with the AG's office and presented evidence of said contact, but I think he let it go after a point.

Yeah,its a different scenario for a company,than an individual.My bad on not making the correlation clear.

As far as reporting to the CCU,BTC was around $5 at the time,just wasn't worth going that far then.

[Minor Miner]

He was refunded and it was for like $129.   BUT, the AG DID take it seriously especially the part about SONNY.   When he was refunded, he was no longer a victim.   Now if the same office had 10-20 more of these people who could not get refunds, they would push HARDER.   But, that is why BFL will continue to give refunds.  Because they HAVE TO OR THEY WILL FIND THEMSELVES IN JAIL.   And they know it.   The best thing for BTC in the long run is if all these people would push for refunds and push BFL into chapter 11 or 7 (assuming they even file).   And, then just let it disappear without MSM coverage.  

[repentance]

The reddit thread about this is full of people happy about the fact that their BFL units are now "worth twice as much".  

[Minor Miner]

The reddit thread about this is full of people happy about the fact that their BFL units are now "worth twice as much".  

I know, I was reading that.   It is very interesting, isn't it?   It is like some university pysch dept doing a study.....

[hous]

I GOT 2 X 60 SORRY 50 GH SINGLES  DELIVERY IN [[[JULY]]]] SO THEY SAY!!
ANY ONE INTRESTED $4500 IN BITCOINS OF COARSE