munnyjay (OP)
Newbie
 Offline
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
|
 |
April 04, 2013, 12:49:48 PM |
|
Hello, In another topic (can't respons as newbie) I saw this video of some sort of code error on Bitcoin-24: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYPaN_41tv0I don't exactly get it. I was just about to sell some Bitcoins on that site (not buying), is that safe to do? As far as I get the problem it's only a problem when buying Bitcoins, am I right? I hope someone can tell me if selling Bitcoin on Bitcoin-24 is safe. Thanks in advance, I hope someone can clear this up to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Even if you use Bitcoin through Tor, the way transactions are handled by the network makes anonymity difficult to achieve. Do not expect your transactions to be anonymous unless you really know what you're doing.
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
|
|
munnyjay (OP)
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
|
|
April 04, 2013, 02:51:23 PM |
|
can somebody confirm or denie this please? I want to know if I can sell them savely...  |
|
|
|
|
|
c1010010
|
|
April 04, 2013, 03:32:06 PM |
|
As a general rule... YouTube is not a source of truth. Reach out to the exchange and talk to them. If it IS a problem, they need to know and will certainly address it. If it is not a problem, then they will talk to you about it.
|
|
|
|
munnyjay (OP)
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
|
|
April 04, 2013, 03:56:16 PM |
|
Well the guy in the video said he talked to them and they denied it was a problem or that it could be exploited or something, but I would probably do the same if it was my website... I mean it's not a really good look for your company/website. Besides on the shoutbox of their website about an hour ago I also saw someone questioning why he suddenly had more money on his balance... So I'm doubt a little
|
|
|
|
|
|
phlogistonq
|
|
April 04, 2013, 09:22:29 PM
Last edit: April 06, 2013, 02:46:40 PM by phlogistonq |
|
There are perfectly good explanations for the two issues he mentiones:
1. The hotwallet is often empty
There is simply because the hotwallet is only charged with a limited amount of BTC, a good security measure, and the owner is running the exchange all by himself and is sometimes a bit late in recharging it as he is busy. The recent steep increase in the number of users has aggrevated this.
2. The price on btc24 is often much higher than at gox
The prices between exchanges are synchronized by arbitrage trading. ie you would sell for a high price on btc24, transfer the money to gox and buy cheaply. However, the only fast way to transfer money from btc24 to gox is via vouchX coupons/aurumXchange. For this, btc24 exchange has to have a reserve of euro and dollar coupons, but these often run out. When you watch this (as I do, to benefit from arbitrage trading opportunities), you will find that the prices diverge strongly when the coupon reserves are empty, but are well synchronized (within a bit of margin, due to coupon fees etc) when the coupons are there.
Lastly, for what its worth, I have traded on this exchange for a few months now, and adjust my orders a lot almost 24/7 except when I sleep (only 4 hours a day thanks to crazy volatility and 4 kids) and have not experienced this.
As has been said, this can only be addressed by the owner of the exchange (Tais46). In any case, if the bug exists, it must be very rare or I would have experienced it already, and the volumes on this exchange are not so high so the amount of money involved would probably be minor.
|
|
|
|
|
munnyjay (OP)
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
|
|
April 04, 2013, 09:54:42 PM |
|
thnx man! That cleared up a lot for me, really helpful!
edit: you just told you use this exchange for months now so you should be able to help me out with this: How do I withdraw BTC from bitcoin-24? I tried to, I received a code by mail but what do I have to do next (with the code)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
phlogistonq
|
|
April 04, 2013, 10:16:27 PM |
|
On the withdraw --> bitcoin page that you used to specify how many coins to withdraw to what address, there will appear a new text field that you can enter the confirmation code in. (The text field appears after you click 'withdraw') BTW, another thread was started on this topic here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=166456.0 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
gfoot
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
|
|
April 05, 2013, 01:09:54 AM |
|
Thanks for the second video, I was just posting to say your first wasn't at all clear.
The second video is much more compelling, given the huge profit, but it's still not clear to me from the transaction log - what would make it clear would be if you could start from the beginning of the transaction log at a known balance, and work up adding the "buy" numbers together and subtracting the "sell" numbers. Is there a point where you sold bitcoins that you definitely did not own? Or where you bought with cash you did not own? Or a particular transaction where the exchange rate was incorrectly applied?
You keep pointing at the doubling up points, but are you sure it's not just your bot that is suddenly making use of legitimate funds it had left untouched for a while? For me that is the lingering doubt, that you're assuming the bot was always playing with all of your money, but it's hard to be sure that was the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
dutt
|
|
April 05, 2013, 07:43:07 AM
Last edit: April 05, 2013, 08:01:36 AM by dutt |
|
Yes, the bot always puts up all available funds into orders. Believe me I wish these were legit returns, but the numbers don't work out. I'll try going over it in a spreadsheet.
Results of spreadsheet:
Avg Buy 102.0702224313
Avg Sell 102.6618647848
Avg % 1.0057964247
Over 200 trips 3.17700206
So, nice numbers, but still not enough to justify the 48x increase...
|
|
|
|
gfoot
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
|
|
April 05, 2013, 11:46:37 AM |
|
It's still not clear - you really need to make your spreadsheet add up running totals - so add to each row a BTC balance and a cash balance. Start from zero for both at the bottom of the sheet and insert extra rows for points where you added or removed currency or bitcoins. The new balance for each row is the balance from the previous row plus or minus the transaction size for this row, depending on whether it was a buy or a sell.
What you imply in the video, I think, is that at some points you were allowed to sell the same bitcoins twice for cash, or to buy bitcoins twice with the same cash. If this really happened then it will show up very clearly in the cumulative balances.
So if either balance (BTC or cash) goes negative at any point then the system allowed you to borrow money, which is a bit bad but not the end of the world. If the final balances don't match your account balances reported by the site right now then that's very bad. Otherwise you didn't at any point spend money you didn't have, which is good. In that case as far as your account is concerned your trades are all valid and there's no problem.
The only other possibility I see is that some of the rows could be incorrect, i.e. the transaction sizes in BTC and cash do not correspond to the exchange rate. You could check that too very easily but it would be astonishing if this was ever wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
jonne
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
|
|
April 05, 2013, 12:02:50 PM |
|
I also experienced a very strange behavior. No clue if it is related. Last week I put 50€ on my newly created account, with which I haven't traded much in the meantime, just 4 transactions in total: 4 sell 0.28050000 78.99503 € 22.15811 € EUR 2013-04-01 15:45:34 3 buy 0.28050000 78.16500 € 21.92528 € EUR 2013-04-01 15:29:13 2 sell 0.30000000 73.29900 € 21.98970 € EUR 2013-03-30 17:06:02 1 buy 0.63459854 78.78997 € 50.00000 € EUR 2013-03-28 10:32:56 Imagine you start from 50€ with which you buy for 50€, and then sell, buy and sell for 22€, you would expect there to be 22€ on the account, right? But my account is still empty! For the last transaction the money never arrived, although the transaction history says I sold for 22.15811€. It all happened in a period of instability of the exchange, but my conclusion is that selling on bitcoin-24 is not safe and I'm glad that I didn't try it with a bigger amount. Posted it earlier at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=166914.0 |
|
|
|
|
|
dutt
|
|
April 05, 2013, 08:39:37 PM |
|
Okay. Maybe this means that for everytime someone doubles his money, somene else loses his. This is actually good because it at least means that the damage of the exploit is limited, and that the exchange wouldn't be bankrupt then, just some individuals having a lot more money, and some a lot less...  But I think this is unlikely, because what are the odds that the two amounts add up to be exactly the same? |
|
|
|
|
phlogistonq
|
|
April 05, 2013, 11:05:49 PM |
|
If the bug is that trades are sometimes executed for Eur 0,- (ie. buy coins for nothing, or sell them without getting euro's), ofcourse the size of the order would match.
Except that in the buggy transactions, the coins would be sold or bought for Eur 0,-.
|
|
|
|
|
alpha
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
|
|
April 13, 2013, 12:05:20 PM |
|
If the bug is that trades are sometimes executed for Eur 0,- (ie. buy coins for nothing, or sell them without getting euro's), ofcourse the size of the order would match.
Except that in the buggy transactions, the coins would be sold or bought for Eur 0,-.
i am trading on https://www.bitcoin.de or https://vircurex.com |
|
|
|
|
|
