Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin)

[nameface]

I'm not too technical, but I know bitcoin has proof of work built in which is how mining works. Why doesn't bitcoin have proof of stake? Proof of stake seems necessary to ensures the security of a crypto network long term.

I'm reading about PPCoin which is the only coin with proof of stake built in. Ppl are saying this makes it the best alternative crypto-currency blah blah blah

If an alt coin that has proof of stake (currently only ppcoin) became popular, would bitcoin implement it?

[fghj]

I heard that there is nothing at stake with these proof of stake chains.

[Syke]

If an alt coin that has proof of stake (currently only ppcoin) became popular, would bitcoin implement it?

No. Bitcoin is and always will be proof of work.

[nameface]

I heard that there is nothing at stake with these proof of stake chains.

lol, Actually the ppcoin started trading on BTC-E.com yesterday, and it has a bit of value. I don't think there are other proof of stake coins, I may have missed something..
I'm a bit of a speculator, I'm thinking ppcoin will blow up and demolish all of the other alt cryptos due to this proof of stake aspect.

If an alt coin that has proof of stake (currently only ppcoin) became popular, would bitcoin implement it?

No. Bitcoin is and always will be proof of work.

Isn't the beauty of bitcoin that it can be changed? How do you know exactly what the future will bring for bitcoin?

[smoothie]

bitcoin > PEE PEE

[nameface]

bitcoin > PEE PEE

+10

I saw you on a ppcoin thread, you just like saying PEE PEE hahaha (now they are now talking about changing the name).

Obv BTC beats the pants off all other coins combined.

[fghj]

I heard that there is nothing at stake with these proof of stake chains.

lol, Actually the ppcoin started trading on BTC-E.com yesterday, and it has a bit of value. I don't think there are other proof of stake coins, I may have missed something..
I'm a bit of a speculator, I'm thinking ppcoin will blow up and demolish all of the other alt cryptos due to this proof of stake aspect.

Nothing at stake as in when you try double spend bitcoin you have to do it when there are 0 confirmations or waste a lot of money to do 51% or Finney, but for proof of stake you don't loose anything when you try to cheat. Right now PPcoin is some hybrid apparently (details are harder to find than for Bitcoin), but my gut says that when it migrates to pure proof of stake many bad things will happen.
Let me quote one of the devs (with some bolding)

Could you comment on the incentives to maintain full nodes described here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake

That page is pretty embarrassing.   There is absolutely no mention of the fundamental flaw in PoS consensus which none of your proposals have addressed:  As of yet none of the proof of stake proposals are workable because there is nothing at stake!   If someone is PoS mining it is in their best interest to attempt to concurrently build an honest chain as well as all possible attack forks just in case one of them happens to win.  Under most schemes this is the profit maximizing move, in all I've seen so far its at least neutral.  Mining an attack under PoW actually involves _spending_ something and taking the risk other miners will extend it. PoW works because your work is at stake so even a very small amount of honest miners make mercenary rational miners behave honestly too.

Moreover, I don't see why you argue here that it better aligns incentives. Parties can't mine PoW without having a validating node (or face the extreme risk other miners will toss them off on forks).  All it does is redistribute control, which might be useful— if not for the fact that it makes attacking more attractive for selfish participants.   I was hopeful of these techniques but as of yet I don't see how any can be workable.

[kwukduck]

Don't you know ppcoin is the successor of bitcoin? bitcoin is unsustainable and will crash soon!
There's a reason the ppcoin price is skyrocketing pump'n'dump! Better buy in now while they are still cheap!

[nameface]

There's a reason the ppcoin price is skyrocketing pump'n'dump! Better buy in now while they are still cheap!

+1
But this is only if u think there's room for alt cryptos in the eco-system medium term.
IF YES, THEN I C no reason not to have ~1-10% of your crypto portfolio in each worthy coin: PPC, LTC, NMC etc...
They are likely to end up being ~5-10% of the market sooner than later, because traders are proving they love them, and traders bring in a lot of new capital. Tons of risk though.

[blablahblah]

Although I haven't looked into PPCoin in too much depth (or any of the others for that matter), the occasional discussion here about "proof of stake" seems compelling. It seems to allude to the idea of a "benevolent monarch" who is compelled to act honestly because quite frankly, His/Her best Game Theory move has to maximise the benefit for mankind. This seems to beat the "proof of work" concept where the stake may be positioned elsewhere. Thus, in Bitcoin's main fork (what most people think of as THE Bitcoin), large miners (who control fees) could act against the best interests of users.

As a simple example, a large dominant miner could, theoretically, keep transaction fees low for a long time to pump up a bubble (low fees --> high monetary velocity --> high exchange rate), and they will then disrupt the network by spiking the minimum fees (setting off a crash). Meanwhile, this miner has heavily invested in some alt-chain, so that when users go looking for alternatives the miner makes a huge profit. These sorts of dirty tricks or 'attacks' are not so easy when currency issuers have to prove that they have a legitimate stake in what they are issuing.

[nameface]

"proof of stake" seems compelling.
...dirty tricks or 'attacks' are not so easy when currency issuers have to prove that they have a legitimate stake in what they are issuing.

LULZ I can't believe I wrote "blahblahblah" in the first post of this thread and a guy named "blahblahblah" chimed in with a really competent post!

[sangaman]

Regarding nothing being at stake by generating POS blocks on attack chains, wouldn't this hurt the value of your coins on the legitimate chain? To be generating POS blocks, you need to have coins. If you have coins, you have an interest in the security, viability, and ultimately the value of the block chain. If you mine on an attack fork for no other reason than "well why not, it doesn't cost me anything" then you may be hurting your value on the honest chain, even though you're not actually investing hashing resources into it.

[blablahblah]

"proof of stake" seems compelling.
...dirty tricks or 'attacks' are not so easy when currency issuers have to prove that they have a legitimate stake in what they are issuing.

LULZ I can't believe I wrote "blahblahblah" in the first post of this thread and a guy named "blahblahblah" chimed in with a really competent post!

You're welcome... I think! 

[nwbitcoin]

It seems to me that while it can be possible to forecast the behaviour of rational behaviour, it isn't possible to forecast every possible irrational behaviour that makes up real world attempts at breaking the system.

That is why sometimes it makes more sense to just let the coin out into the wild and wait to see if it does get broken - then fix it.

Its like having a focus group without group think!

[nameface]

They moved this topic to the alt crypto board because it mentions alt cryptos? What I'm trying to get at is the idea of proof of stake for bitcoin.
What would it take to get proof of stake implemented in bitcoin? A surge in the value of ppcoin would be a start. But what if ppcoin fails? Will the idea be perceived as a bad one for bitcoin?

[hanzac]

PEE PEE is just for emergency circumstance. So BTC still stands the trend top.

[giszmo]

I also hope Bitcoin will gradually introduce POS as this would allow to totally reduce the waste of resources happening with mining right now and that would allow to run the network with essentially no fees. People with stake would keep the system alive and protected even if they don't get fees.
Fees would still exist as there wouldn't be room for all non-sense transactions people could make up but the block reward as an incentive to mine would essentially be pointless and just a way to initially distribute coins.

I haven't looked into PPCoin too closely but would see buying it as vote to add POS into Bitcoin. If they don't have tons of pre-mined coins like Freicoin, if they have some well known supporters from the developer team, if they have a significant part of POW mining to bootstrap, I would consider buying.

(Why the hack did litecoin not die yet? Why is it at $4? Why? This scam with no innovation pisses me off. Sorry for off topic.)

[chriswen]

Bitcoin can't possibly introduce stake.

And bitcoin will not waste that much energy.  Energy wasted = Exchange rate * block reward.  So, as block reward halves, waste drops.  This doesn't happen with PPC.  Well, moore's law reduces waste, but increased miners add waste.  So PPC is just waste right now because it is getting growth.

[Notanon]

I also hope Bitcoin will gradually introduce POS as this would allow to totally reduce the waste of resources happening with mining right now and that would allow to run the network with essentially no fees. People with stake would keep the system alive and protected even if they don't get fees.
Fees would still exist as there wouldn't be room for all non-sense transactions people could make up but the block reward as an incentive to mine would essentially be pointless and just a way to initially distribute coins.

I haven't looked into PPCoin too closely but would see buying it as vote to add POS into Bitcoin. If they don't have tons of pre-mined coins like Freicoin, if they have some well known supporters from the developer team, if they have a significant part of POW mining to bootstrap, I would consider buying.

(Why the hack did litecoin not die yet? Why is it at $4? Why? This scam with no innovation pisses me off. Sorry for off topic.)

4x the block generation speed, which is useful for smaller transactions and to take the load off bitcoins block size limitations, and an encryption method which is more ASIC-resilient and less likely to be 51% attacked as a result, would indicate some thought out innovations with the design of Litecoins. If both were introduced at the same time, Bitcoin would've died off years ago and Litecoin would reign supreme instead.

[Sunny King]

4x the block generation speed, which is useful for smaller transactions and to take the load off bitcoins block size limitations, and an encryption method which is more ASIC-resilient and less likely to be 51% attacked as a result, would indicate some thought out innovations with the design of Litecoins. If both were introduced at the same time, Bitcoin would've died off years ago and Litecoin would reign supreme instead.

I keep seeing people not knowing much history of altcoins claims as if scrypt hash was litecoin's 'innovation'. It was done by ArtForz and first debut was in tenebrix. coblee just copied it.

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/History-of-cryptocurrency