[PRE-ANN] +++ HUB: +++

[ttookk]

HUB:
+++          Introduction          +++

Hey guys,

with all the people creating altcoins, I thought, I’d do the same

…no, not really.

This is not going to be a cryptocurrency on its own, so I may be actually wrong in this section. Still, I think this is the place where the most people who may be interested in what I am aiming at are looking, so I hope, this doesn’t get removed


HUB:
+++          Disclaimers          +++

• There won’t be an ICO.
  
• There won’t be any mining either.
  
• There won’t be any giveaways, airdrops, or any other way to get free coins.
  
• There won’t be any bounties.
  
• At this point, all I write is theoretical.
  

Ok, let’s get into the real stuff:


HUB:
+++          Elevator Pitch          +++

HUB: aims to become a go-to blockchain solution for almost every case in which a blockchain is useful by replacing Altcoins with bitcoin backed tokens which can be exchanged back to Bitcoin, effectively tethering their price to bitcoin and removing the need to purchase alternative cryptocurrencies.

HUB: has no single main blockchain, but is a network of blockchains, that are called :CIRCLES (or, just circle. :CIRCLE just looks cooler ). Every circle has its own properties, which can differ greatly. A very probable use case will be to modify the code of an existing Altcoin, which would make it possible to use their properties without being subjected to heavy value swings due to pump and dump schemes or the market as a whole.

To provide interchangeability, HUB:TOKENS are tethered to a certain bitcoin value. There will be tokens of different fixed sizes, like 0.001 BTC, 0.01 BTC, 0.05 BTC and so on, just like bills and coins in paper money. This is needed to make trading of tokens easier. Since a token can’t be split, a token with a random bitcoin value is not as easily tradable as a token with a fixed value.


HUB:
+++          :CIRCLES         +++

The custom blockchains used in the HUB: network are called :CIRCLES. I’m not using the term “blockchain”, because most circles are not supposed to run indefinitely; they are in fact supposed to have a rather short lifetime. Due to the nature of this idea, there will be very different styles of circles, though. Some may actually be used for a very long time, others may have the lifespan of a few hours. The same goes for members of a circle; some may contain thousands of members, others may contain as little as two members. Since a circle may contain an agreement between parties that may be considered as a contract, for circles that are abandoned (i.e. they don’t hold any tokens anymore) an archiving system will be set in place, which enables former members to save a copy of the circle and creates a hash and writes this hash into the bitcoin blockchain, as a proof of existence.

While there will be a HUB: native validation system to keep a circle alive, it is very possible, that at some point, circles will pop up, that have their own validation systems, like modified Proof of Work, Proof of Stake or similar.


HUB:
+++          :TOKENS           +++

As stated above, the “fuel” of the HUB: Network are tokens. Every token represents a fixed amount of bitcoin and can't be split into smaller parts. To make payment easier, there will be tokens of different sizes, similar to cash money.

Other than in the most cryptocurrencies, tokens will have unique identifiers. This is important for two reasons:

Users need to have the ability to check whether a specific token is backed with the right amount of bitcoin.

The HUB: Network as a whole doesn't necessarily know how many tokens are held within all circles combined. Thus, to make keeping track of transactions and especially of cash outs easier, a token is assigned an identifier.

The main issue is where to store the bitcoin the token represents. There are two (and a half) routes to go:

Ideally, a token would have a dedicated bitcoin address associated with it, which holds the right amount of bitcoin. This system could work similar to physical bitcoin containers: a trusted entity creates an address and provides the private key only under certain circumstances. To make stealing harder, a solution could be to do so by creating a 5-out-of-7 multi-signature address, of which the token creator holds four keys, while the other three are held by users, who provide this as a service. The advantage of using the 5-out-of-7 solution is redundancy on the one hand, since only one otherkey holder is needed, on the other hand, even if all key holders would cooperate, they wouldn't be able to steal the bitcoin without at least one key of the token holder. A remaining attack vector would be, that a token holder impersonates one of the other key holders and can still access the funds. I hope, that this can be mitigated by a working reputation system, though.

Another approach would be to collect all bitcoin a circle holds in a single address, which is controlled by the custodians (see below) controlling this circle. If a token is cashed out, a request is sent to those custodians, to send the associated amount of bitcoin to a provided address. If a token is sent to another circle, the associated amount of bitcoin is sent to the circle address.

To cash out a token, it has to be sent to a special address, which is agreed upon, either per circle, or for the HUB: Network as a whole. This address works as a kind of “black hole”: every token sent to it, disappears. To send a token to this address, the user must provide a bitcoin address.

Now, to the half route: I call it the “half route”, because I haven’t really figured it out, yet. The main  idea is, though, that a multisig address is created (let’s say a 5-out-of-7), in which six of the seven keys are generated (the seventh is held as a proof of ownership”) in a “black box”, i.e. a kind of smart contract, that watches for for the token to be sent to a very specific address (the “black hole”). Only then, the contract triggers and generates a transaction to the stated bitcoin address. What makes this idea just a half idea is one major problem: I still have to find a system in which private keys can be created without anyone watching it, and of course, this has to happen in a way, that it is provable that nobody watched their creation.


HUB:
+++          :CUSTODIANS         +++

Circles need to be secured, as any other blockchain does. You could probably use the bitcoin blockchain for it, but it is rather slow and it would be nice to have faster transaction times. In fact, one advantage of HUB: would be to have a system in which you can effectively send bitcoins faster than you could normally do, by sending bitcoin-backed tokens.
The approach I’ve come up with, is a system using so-called “custodians”. The main idea is this:
custodians are actors within a circle that maintain the circles chain by verifying transactions, those inside of the circle, as well as those leaving the circle. At the moment of creation, it is determined who serves as custodian. Just as the number of users, this number can vary greatly. In a very small one-purpose chain between two parties, there may be two or three custodians (the two parties plus an escrow), there may be hundreds of custodians, there also may be only a single but trusted custodian maintaining a circle with hundreds or even thousands of actors (a use case may be a supermarket maintaining a circle to make instant payment possible, while still having a transparent system).
The power of a custodian is not determined by their size of stake in a circle, every custodian has the same amount of power. At the same time, there won’t be any payment for being a custodian, no transaction fees or anything. In smaller circles, probably all members are custodians and have a vested interest in the integrity of the circle. An obvious problem will be, that a single user can impersonate a group of custodians to overrule a smaller group of custodians. To prevent this, every custodian has a “Veto” function: a single custodian or a group can declare any transaction invalid, but what will happen, is, that a new circle is created with them as custodians and all their funds being transferred to this circle, so effectively, they are thrown out of the other circle. This approach obviously saves only their own funds, so in a system in which there are members that are not custodians, it still needs to be figured out how to handle this. A possible approach would be to let members follow the custodian they trust (about “trust”, see below) the most in case of a dispute.


HUB:
+++          Trust, Identity and Reputation          +++

The HUB: Network won’t be a completely trustless system. It is not supposed to. It is not an anonymous system either. If all goes well, it can be pseudonymous, at least for the majority of its users. Still, to effectively use HUB:, a user will need to create some kind of identity.

Within the HUB: Network, there will be a reputation system. Due to the nature of blockchain, there is no way of effectively blacklisting users, so there will be a combination of white-listing and reputation earned by other users. Trust will be displayed in a network style: The more users, that a user personally trusts, be it by knowing them personally, or by having positive interactions with them in the past, are trusting an unknown user, the more trusted this user is.

So far, this is it. I hope you are intrigued. I would love to get some people interested in further discussing this project.

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[ttookk]

HUB:
+++          Internal and External Data          +++

HUB: consists of two main parts: the circles, which hold the tokens and a reputation and identity system. The HUB: Network as a whole does not know what happens inside every single circle. There is no main chain, where all transactions are documented. The network doesn’t need to know anyway, because those who are affected by what happens inside a circle are part of it.
However, there is data that is relevant for the HUB: Network. One obviously is the identity and reputation system, others are things like the size of a circle (both in tokens and in bitcoin value), the identifiers of the tokens it is holding and probably other stuff as well.

While it is relatively trivial to keep a circle running without the use of rewards for those who do so (since the ones keeping a circle alive normally have a vested interest to do so), it is not so easy to incentivize users to maintain external data. It needs to be processed and stored just as much as internal data (i.e. data concerning a single circle), but since there is neither mining nor transaction fees in the network itself, there is no monetary way to do so, unless you would implement a donation-based pool to fund operations.

I’m not yet sure how to solve this problem. Maybe the first question that needs answering is who exactly is responsible for maintaining external data; whether there is a special instance, like nodes, or whether it should be the custodians.
What is speaking in favour of the nodes solution, is the fact that there needs to be some means of storage anyway. It is rather pointless to create a system which is supposed to be streamlined and slim, when every circle would need to hold all external data. The external data needs to be stored somewhere and giving chunks of it to different circles (which have, after all undetermined lifetimes) in the hope of somehow preserving the external data as a whole in this way seems foolish. Thus, there have to be instances which serve as storage for this kind of data.

A possible payment system would be to tax using circles at the moment of token creation. Part of the bitcoin invested would go to nodes or maybe custodians. However, this creates new problems, particularly, whether people are willing to pay the extra money to use the service (we shouldn't forget, that  due to bitcoins transaction fees, there are already additional costs, albeit relatively small).

[crazywack]

This could be written on Etherium. Sounds like smart contracts.

Half route name idea... Crescent

[kbroadfoot]

This is a real project?

[ttookk]

This could be written on Etherium. Sounds like smart contracts.

Half route name idea... Crescent

Yeah, writing it on Ethereum was one of my thoughts. However, there are some reasons, why I didn't follow this route further:

Ethereum has assets, which are not that different from what I am thinking about. The HUB: tokens have some properties, that Ethereum assets don't have and this would be a way to realize sidechains on Ethereum, without the need to change Ethereums code. So, there may be actually enough advantages to think about this a little more.

However, there is another reason, why I think bitcoin is a better base for this: bitcoin is mainly a value exchange and storage tool, while Ethereum isn’t. Bitcoins worth is not primarily defined by its usability besides its "usability" of being a value tool. This is more a feeling that I have than anything else, but I think it would be good to have some base that is meant to be that, as opposed to a blockchain, that is mainly intended to be a platform.

If it works, the HUB: protocol can be used with just about any cryptocurrency, using bitcoin is just the most… well, logical. People could create implementations for Monero, Zcash or whatever, though.

Using HUB: to enable these cryptocurrencies to utilize smart contracts is one of the main use cases I'm thinking of

This is a real project?

At this point, the honest answer is "no". There are a couple of reasons:
My programming skills are just enough to write a "hello world!" program, so I am not able to write the needed code myself. Neither do I have the funds to pay a programmer.

Since HUB: has no native coins, there is no way to sell something as an ICO and even if there was, I'm getting a little tired of ICOs. I think they are holding back development, actually, because it divides the community. Everybody is working on their own little project, instead of trying to work on a few big projects. I’m not that much better, I guess

I can't really bait anyone with 100x returns or any other kind of direct returns, really. You could argue, that, if this idea takes off, it may further mass adoption of bitcoin, which would ultimately benefit those involved, but I understand that working on a project that can multiply your money looks far more interesting.

I am not yet sure how viable the idea actually is. I think the use cases are there:

- Enabling pretty much any cryptocurrency to have smart contracts
- Fastening transfer times of bitcoin etc.
- delegating transactions to sidechains could remedy maximum transaction problems
- ideally, transactions won't require a fee (not sure about that, yet)
- …I have more, but it's buried in my brain somewhere

But I don't know how to create a sufficient level of security, yet. All ideas I've come up with until now require at least some level of trust (although at least, we are not talking about trust in a single person) or sanctioning of malicious behavior (which implies that malicious behaviour is possible). I’m not totally sure how much of a problem that actually is (philosophically, I have a problem with accepting that we have to create systems that are completely trustless, even if it's the internet). So, there is still a chance, that this thing would just pop like a soap bubble.

Anyway, It's nice to see some people posting here. That's encouraging

[crazywack]

This could be written on Etherium. Sounds like smart contracts.

Half route name idea... Crescent

Yeah, writing it on Ethereum was one of my thoughts. However, there are some reasons, why I didn't follow this route further:

Ethereum has assets, which are not that different from what I am thinking about. The HUB: tokens have some properties, that Ethereum assets don't have and this would be a way to realize sidechains on Ethereum, without the need to change Ethereums code. So, there may be actually enough advantages to think about this a little more.

However, there is another reason, why I think bitcoin is a better base for this: bitcoin is mainly a value exchange and storage tool, while Ethereum isn’t. Bitcoins worth is not primarily defined by its usability besides its "usability" of being a value tool. This is more a feeling that I have than anything else, but I think it would be good to have some base that is meant to be that, as opposed to a blockchain, that is mainly intended to be a platform.

If it works, the HUB: protocol can be used with just about any cryptocurrency, using bitcoin is just the most… well, logical. People could create implementations for Monero, Zcash or whatever, though.

Using HUB: to enable these cryptocurrencies to utilize smart contracts is one of the main use cases I'm thinking of

This is a real project?

At this point, the honest answer is "no". There are a couple of reasons:
My programming skills are just enough to write a "hello world!" program, so I am not able to write the needed code myself. Neither do I have the funds to pay a programmer.

Since HUB: has no native coins, there is no way to sell something as an ICO and even if there was, I'm getting a little tired of ICOs. I think they are holding back development, actually, because it divides the community. Everybody is working on their own little project, instead of trying to work on a few big projects. I’m not that much better, I guess

I can't really bait anyone with 100x returns or any other kind of direct returns, really. You could argue, that, if this idea takes off, it may further mass adoption of bitcoin, which would ultimately benefit those involved, but I understand that working on a project that can multiply your money looks far more interesting.

I am not yet sure how viable the idea actually is. I think the use cases are there:

- Enabling pretty much any cryptocurrency to have smart contracts
- Fastening transfer times of bitcoin etc.
- delegating transactions to sidechains could remedy maximum transaction problems
- ideally, transactions won't require a fee (not sure about that, yet)
- …I have more, but it's buried in my brain somewhere

But I don't know how to create a sufficient level of security, yet. All ideas I've come up with until now require at least some level of trust (although at least, we are not talking about trust in a single person) or sanctioning of malicious behavior (which implies that malicious behaviour is possible). I’m not totally sure how much of a problem that actually is (philosophically, I have a problem with accepting that we have to create systems that are completely trustless, even if it's the internet). So, there is still a chance, that this thing would just pop like a soap bubble.

Anyway, It's nice to see some people posting here. That's encouraging

Good luck with your project, I think you have a good idea here and should solicit some of the better DEVs on this site.

[JeffBrad12]

This could be written on Etherium. Sounds like smart contracts.

Half route name idea... Crescent

Yeah, writing it on Ethereum was one of my thoughts. However, there are some reasons, why I didn't follow this route further:

Ethereum has assets, which are not that different from what I am thinking about. The HUB: tokens have some properties, that Ethereum assets don't have and this would be a way to realize sidechains on Ethereum, without the need to change Ethereums code. So, there may be actually enough advantages to think about this a little more.

However, there is another reason, why I think bitcoin is a better base for this: bitcoin is mainly a value exchange and storage tool, while Ethereum isn’t. Bitcoins worth is not primarily defined by its usability besides its "usability" of being a value tool. This is more a feeling that I have than anything else, but I think it would be good to have some base that is meant to be that, as opposed to a blockchain, that is mainly intended to be a platform.

If it works, the HUB: protocol can be used with just about any cryptocurrency, using bitcoin is just the most… well, logical. People could create implementations for Monero, Zcash or whatever, though.

Using HUB: to enable these cryptocurrencies to utilize smart contracts is one of the main use cases I'm thinking of

This is a real project?

At this point, the honest answer is "no". There are a couple of reasons:
My programming skills are just enough to write a "hello world!" program, so I am not able to write the needed code myself. Neither do I have the funds to pay a programmer.

Since HUB: has no native coins, there is no way to sell something as an ICO and even if there was, I'm getting a little tired of ICOs. I think they are holding back development, actually, because it divides the community. Everybody is working on their own little project, instead of trying to work on a few big projects. I’m not that much better, I guess

I can't really bait anyone with 100x returns or any other kind of direct returns, really. You could argue, that, if this idea takes off, it may further mass adoption of bitcoin, which would ultimately benefit those involved, but I understand that working on a project that can multiply your money looks far more interesting.

I am not yet sure how viable the idea actually is. I think the use cases are there:

- Enabling pretty much any cryptocurrency to have smart contracts
- Fastening transfer times of bitcoin etc.
- delegating transactions to sidechains could remedy maximum transaction problems
- ideally, transactions won't require a fee (not sure about that, yet)
- …I have more, but it's buried in my brain somewhere

But I don't know how to create a sufficient level of security, yet. All ideas I've come up with until now require at least some level of trust (although at least, we are not talking about trust in a single person) or sanctioning of malicious behavior (which implies that malicious behaviour is possible). I’m not totally sure how much of a problem that actually is (philosophically, I have a problem with accepting that we have to create systems that are completely trustless, even if it's the internet). So, there is still a chance, that this thing would just pop like a soap bubble.

Anyway, It's nice to see some people posting here. That's encouraging

can't really bait anyone with 100x returns or any other kind of direct returns, really. You could argue, that, if this idea takes off, it may further mass adoption of bitcoin, which would ultimately benefit those involved, but I understand that working on a project that can multiply your money looks far more interesting.

I am not yet sure how viable the idea actually is. I think the use cases are there:

- Enabling pretty much any cryptocurrency to have smart contracts
- Fastening transfer times of bitcoin etc.
- delegating transactions to sidechains could remedy maximum transaction problems
- ideally, transactions won't require a fee (not sure about that, yet)
- …I have more, but it's buried in my brain somewhere

It's already quite complete for me, and all of your thoughts seems to be rational and make sense.
I like to call it all in one. A lot of taste in one pack.

[Ingramtg]

no ico and no mining how do you distribution the coin  well,  very curious
 the idea looks good

[ttookk]

no ico and no mining how do you distribution the coin  well,  very curious
 the idea looks good

A token is created when it is needed. Think of it as an envelope: when you need a token, you put an amount of bitcoin into the envelope and use it instead.

It's already quite complete for me, and all of your thoughts seems to be rational and make sense.
I like to call it all in one. A lot of taste in one pack.

Thanks

But really, there are still a lot of open questions:

- How are the tokens created exactly? Who holds the privkeys?
- How exactly are tokens transferred between two circles?
- How do you prevent spamming the network with a bunch of small tokens?

These are just out of the top of my head. And these are make or break questions: Without satisfying answers, this project won't fly.

[ttookk]

HUB:
+++          Trust          +++

I think completely trustless systems are overrated. It may sound weird, writing this and at the same time working on blockchain technology, since trustlessness seems to be one of the holy grails of blockchain technology. I’m not saying that we don’t need preventive means in place, but if we look closer, we see that absolute trustlessness can’t be achieved. Why? Because in a transaction, there are, most of the time, two things that are exchanged. If I buy something using bitcoin, I get a product. While the bitcoin transaction may be trustless, the sending of the product isn’t and there is no way to ensure that it is, other than punishing misbehavior. Even if I use an escrow, both I and the seller have to trust the escrow. This is true for most transactions, and definitely true for all transactions that involve a physical product or service.

So, what I am working on is a system, that still needs trust, but distributes this trust over a number of users. Only if a critical mass of users decides to work together, or a single user somehow manages to impersonate enough users, the system can be broken.


HUB:
+++          Trust, Identity and Reputation Revisited          +++

The reputation system used will be somewhat similar to the friends system, Facebook uses: A user can earn trust from other users.

Let’s say, Brian, David, Anne and Emily are users. David can set a mark, that says “I trust Emily”.

Brian doesn't know Emily and had no dealings with her, but he knows David and has set a mark that says “I trust David”. Thus, Emily has some amount of reputation for him, albeit not as much as David has, whom he trusts directly.

Anne has no trust marks set for David, Emily or Brian, so to her none of them has any amount of trust.

This has two implications:

Users can't generate hundreds of accounts to boost their trust. Well, they can, but it will lead to nothing, since the amount of trust is not relevant for users they are not connected with. Even if users manage to gain trust from a single or a few other users, their reputation only raises a bit, since being interconnected outweighs trust marks by a big number of users with few connections.

This can lead to the formation of “trust bubbles”, isolated groups, which share none or only few connections. While this sounds like a problem, I doubt that it’s going to be a big problem, if it is a problem at all. I believe a likely scenario will be, that some users will be generally trusted by the community and that these users will act as “bridges”: A user can check if one of those users is part of a trust bubble. If there is one or more, they can decide to deem members of this bubble as trustworthy, by setting trust marks.

While the HUB: reputation system has no negative trust per se, trust can be withdrawn. An account without trust is useless, as is an account with trust from users that are not trusted themselves.

In case we need nodes (which may be needed to ensure, that external data is stored somewhere), we could have a system in place, which requires users to validate accounts. To do so, a user has to buy a validation code from at least three nodes. The user uses these codes to validate their account, which at the same time sets a base level of trust. Other users can see that the account has been validated and which nodes signed for it (nodes can be trusted or not, just like regular users).


HUB:
+++          Nodes          +++

I am not sure yet, whether nodes are needed in the first place. If they are, they have two main jobs: they are the ones ensuring that external data is stored somewhere and check whether this data is correct (it is sent to them by custodians) and they are the ones signing new accounts (see “Trust, Identity and Reputation Revisited”).
Additionally, they will be most likely be asked to escrow certain deals or serve as custodians for some circles. This may give node operators some kind of income.
Interestingly, the trust system set in place may render the use of nodes redundant: A user may safe things like trust settings on their own, so there is no need for a certain entity to safe this data. If a user removes trust settings by deleting them, other users may retaliate by removing their trust settings. This would force users to keep their trust settings and keep them accessible from time to time. Thus, by utilizing the trust system, users can be punished or rewarded for providing storage space for external data.
If a user wants to validate a new account, they may do so by buying initial trust settings from other users. I believe, that some users will stand out as exceptionally trustworthy anyway, so earning trust marks from them will almost be a requirement anyway. These users may charge others for it. This would mean that a dedicated node system is not needed.

Is there a danger of nodes (or users who effectively act as such) becoming too powerful?

I don’t think so. Nodes require reputation just as much as normal users do. You could say, that a node is just a regular user, who is more interconnected than other users. If a node operator would try to abuse their powers, users will withdraw their trust marks, stripping the node operator of their power.


HUB:
+++          Marketplace          +++

Since there already is a reputation system in place, it would be only logical to enhance the HUB: idea to include a marketplace. This won't be my main focus, but it would be very interesting and convenient to create one.

[bolivarcoin]

make it a zcash fork

Zhub

[ttookk]

HUB:
+++          Token Creation Revisited          +++

The token creation is the crucial part and the one where most things can go wrong. Once a secure way to create tokens is established, the rest shouldn’t be too hard.

As mentioned before, there are two ways to store bitcoin: as a pool or in a wallet per token.

I think the logical approach would be to create an address per token. Having a pool has a lot of disadvantages over separate addresses.

However, there are some disadvantages that come along using single addresses as well. Probably the biggest one are small tokens. For one, cashing out a small token may cost more transaction fees than they are worth. At the same time, small tokens may be needed for paying accurately.
A possible solution may be to have pools for small tokens: since these pools are relatively small and the tokens themselves are small as well, attacking these pools doesn’t lead to much gains, while losing a few cents worth of bitcoin on the other hand isn’t a big loss. Additionally, these pools are relatively easy to monitor.

Once a user wants to cash out some small tokens, they can collect tokens that belong to the same pool, making the cash out a single transaction, minimizing transaction fees.

However, this may be a too complex process for regular users. At the same time, the concept of fixed value tokens, the imitation of cash money in a digital environment, in which everything should be scalable, itself looks like a weird, outdated concept.

In commercial circles, the custodians may decide to have an auto-change system in place, which would make the limited scalability almost invisible for regular users.

Token should come with some kind of expiration date. If we apply an approach in which a number of users hold the private keys, the danger of all of them getting offline or losing the keys gets bigger over time. Therefore, it would be prudent to have tokens just as long as needed, although it is very convenient to have tokens ready. There has to be a middle ground for this, or, a solution in which the custodians are not needed to access the funds. A smart contract may make this possible: once a token is created, the custodians write the corresponding private keys into a smart contract that is automatically triggered when the token is sent to the burn address.

[Marley_Gray_Microsoft]

Wow that's a lot of stuff to read seems interesting but you'll be able to deliver?

[bittrojan]

When is the ann coming?

[ttookk]

Wow that's a lot of stuff to read seems interesting but you'll be able to deliver?

No, I myself won't be able to deliver, at least not in the near future. This is more of a thread do dream aloud for me

The best case scenario would be to get someone interested who is able to do it.

As someone who has some connections and experience in the design space, I know how annoying requests like "how about you work for free, this will make you famous!" or "you'll get a percentage of the earnings, together we can make money out of this, once you've built it!" are, I guess, programmers get to hear stuff like that, as well.

That's why I won't run around and ask people to help me (since I can't pay them). At the same time, I just don't want to write my ideas down and not show them to anybody.

When is the ann coming?

When I've found people who are willing to help me actually build it (not that likely), or when I've learned enough C++/Python to build it myself (even more unlikely ).

[dfox101]

looks like an idea discussion here? the "dev" is still learning C++/python, it will take years for hi to be a proficient programmer and be able to implement these. Lol, time to sit back and relax

[ttookk]

looks like an idea discussion here? the "dev" is still learning C++/python, it will take years for hi to be a proficient programmer and be able to implement these. Lol, time to sit back and relax

Yeah, pure idea discussion. I'm not a "dev", at least not in the strict sense. Apart from that, you are right

[Motivator]

@OP you sure do like to type, which is actually a good thing! Effort is attractive  

I wish you all the best with your search, it does sound good to say the least!

looks like an idea discussion here? the "dev" is still learning C++/python, it will take years for hi to be a proficient programmer and be able to implement these. Lol, time to sit back and relax

Well atleast he's trying and enthusiastic with his ideas...

[dfox101]

@OP you sure do like to type, which is actually a good thing! Effort is attractive  

I wish you all the best with your search, it does sound good to say the least!

looks like an idea discussion here? the "dev" is still learning C++/python, it will take years for hi to be a proficient programmer and be able to implement these. Lol, time to sit back and relax

Well atleast he's trying and enthusiastic with his ideas...

I agree, it's not a bad thing. It's always good to discuss ideas and see how that can be implemented. It could attract some good developers and may have an interesting project.

[ttookk]

@OP you sure do like to type, which is actually a good thing! Effort is attractive  

I wish you all the best with your search, it does sound good to say the least!

looks like an idea discussion here? the "dev" is still learning C++/python, it will take years for hi to be a proficient programmer and be able to implement these. Lol, time to sit back and relax

Well atleast he's trying and enthusiastic with his ideas...

Well, I tried to describe the main idea in a few sentences. Maybe it’s getting drowned in all the text.

I'm writing pretty much anything I come up with which has to do with this project in here. so yeah, it is a lot of text. It has to be, since there are a lot of questions that require complex answers.

(…)

I agree, it's not a bad thing. It's always good to discuss ideas and see how that can be implemented. It could attract some good developers and may have an interesting project.

That would be the best that could happen

[ttookk]

HUB:
+++          A Safe Exchange?          +++

This is just a realization I had about all this: as stated earlier, if HUB: works, it can be applied to just about any cryptocurrency, that allows multisig addresses. While mixing currencies sounds like a bad idea in general, this means on the other hand, that if you'd create an exchange, which uses HUB: instead of cold wallets, you could use HUB: tokens and the exchange itself wouldn't hold any funds.

The exchange would still be kinda centralized, since you'd want extremely fast transaction times, which would mean that a single-but-trusted-custodian approach would be preferable here. This custodian, however, would not be responsible for the creation of tokens, only for the transactions with them.

Thus, attacking the exchange would lead to almost nothing. An attacker could still mess up the way tokens are exchanged, since you’d probably have one or a few custodians doing transaction validations, but you may be able to implement a "kill-switch", meaning, a bunch of custodians on standby, who can shut down transactions in case of emergency.

This is just a rough sketch of the idea, though.

[bittrojan]

Still waiting on the full announcement. When will that be ready?

[memequiserle]

you say your coin not mining
not ico selling, not bounty not signature campaign
not open all about free coin giveaway

so how your distibution coin, or 100% coin control in dev

[BITDV]

you say your coin not mining
not ico selling, not bounty not signature campaign
not open all about free coin giveaway

so how your distibution coin, or 100% coin control in dev

i
If you actually read the full thread , there are no coins per say they would be created when they are basically needed , so there is no coins for translations,no coins for sig campaigns  and no air drops , its more like a tool to be used for cryptos than a currency! !

People need to actually read it and the idea is actually a great idea , a lot of work but something to think about..

Thanks for the thread probly one of the most worth while thread to read and create discussion  and thought  about in like well this year just about!!

[ttookk]

Still waiting on the full announcement. When will that be ready?

Don't hold your breath. I tried hard to convey, that at this point, all I write here is theoretical. I think the point where I would set up an ANN would be if I had a working version that is ready for beta testing.

you say your coin not mining
not ico selling, not bounty not signature campaign
not open all about free coin giveaway

so how your distibution coin, or 100% coin control in dev

Coins (or, more accurately: tokens) are created when needed by the users. Every token "contains" an amount of bitcoin. But, because it isn't bitcoin, you can do crazy stuff with it, like faster blocktimes, applying Ethereums codebase to it, and so on.

(…)

People need to actually read it and the idea is actually a great idea , a lot of work but something to think about..

Thanks for the thread probly one of the most worth while thread to read and create discussion  and thought  about in like well this year just about!!

Thanks, that's a huge compliment. I'd love to get other people on board to at least discuss it theoretically.

[bittrojan]

Still waiting on the full announcement. When will that be ready?

Don't hold your breath. I tried hard to convey, that at this point, all I write here is theoretical. I think the point where I would set up an ANN would be if I had a working version that is ready for beta testing.

you say your coin not mining
not ico selling, not bounty not signature campaign
not open all about free coin giveaway

so how your distibution coin, or 100% coin control in dev

Coins (or, more accurately: tokens) are created when needed by the users. Every token "contains" an amount of bitcoin. But, because it isn't bitcoin, you can do crazy stuff with it, like faster blocktimes, applying Ethereums codebase to it, and so on.

(…)

People need to actually read it and the idea is actually a great idea , a lot of work but something to think about..

Thanks for the thread probly one of the most worth while thread to read and create discussion  and thought  about in like well this year just about!!

Thanks, that's a huge compliment. I'd love to get other people on board to at least discuss it theoretically.

Do you have any devs currently working on this project or are you actively looking for devs?

[buwaytress]

Questions from newbie to newbie, since this project idea seems to want to avoid the outcomes of most altcoins:

1. Less important: what existing crypto problems does this project want to solve?
2. More  important: what existing crypto needs does it have?

I know the price tethering seems to be the mainstay to maintain if not steer its price but this seems to then artificially keep the value of the coin/token.

[The Runbit]

This altcoin or what?
I dont see how much total supply. Need more information. thanks

[ttookk]

(…)

Do you have any devs currently working on this project or are you actively looking for devs?

No, currently, there are no devs actively working on this project.

I'd love to, but I neither have the money, nor the prospects of generating money with this project. I could probably form a company and try to find corporate investors, but I don't really want to go corporate. There are similar businesses out there I'd have to compete with and I prefer the "linux approach" anyway.

Questions from newbie to newbie, since this project idea seems to want to avoid the outcomes of most altcoins:

1. Less important: what existing crypto problems does this project want to solve?
2. More  important: what existing crypto needs does it have?

I know the price tethering seems to be the mainstay to maintain if not steer its price but this seems to then artificially keep the value of the coin/token.

1.: I think there are multiple answers to this question, some of which still need to be found. My general answer would be this: while I like trading from time to time, it overall slows down mass adoption for two reasons:

The price of a coin changes, sometimes dramatically. Average Joe and Jane will not buy into something, that is so volatile, especially when they plan on using it for something else than speculation. I firmly believe that price stability is one of the key features a cryptocurrency needs to be mass adopted.
At the same time, I think it would be a waste to invent such a great thing as blockchain and have it just be a value storage tool. However, blockchains dedicated to one or a few special purposes have the problem, that their tokens are effectively tethered to their usefulness and while that sounds ok at first glance, this creates a whole bunch of problems.
Just imagine, how tiring it would be, if you would need different kinds of money for bread, electronic devices, gas (which already is volatile on its own), rent and so on, and worse than that, all these different currencies change their value all the time.
Bitcoin is the least volatile cryptocurrency we have, apart from Tether, obviously, and it is the most broadly used.
HUB: tries to create a system, in which people can use bitcoin to do all that fancy stuff, they would otherwise need a special token for.

The second reason is, that getting and using alternative currencies is a pain in the ass right now. First, you have to download a wallet, which needs to sync for ages. Then, you need to buy bitcoin, because you can't buy most currencies directly. Then you need to find out where to get them. And if, by then, you are not already fed up enough, every one of these coins has their own special rules you have to learn, to be able to actually use them.
In the HUB: network, the general rules don't change and you only need one client.

As a side effect, HUB: prevents "blockchain bloat", because it consists of many small chains, instead of one big one. Not only does that make syncing way faster (you just sync the parts you need), but you also don't need gigabytes of storage.

2.: I'm not sure I fully understand that question. It needs everything other blockchains need as well: It needs people who secure the circles. Custodians will be the equivalent to miners or stakers. It needs a client, it needs devs who are working on it… That kind of stuff. Or did I misunderstand it?

About the last part: the tethering is not artificial, because you will get back the exact amount of bitcoin the token holds, minus regular bitcoin transaction fees. Think of tokens as an envelope, containing the information on how to access these bitcoins. Now, creating a system in which this can be securely achieved without a too small number of regulating entities is HUB:s main obstacle.

This altcoin or what?
I dont see how much total supply. Need more information. thanks

No, this is not an Altcoin.
There is no "total supply", because tokens are created when needed. I think this thread contains sufficient information to answer questions about what this project is supposed to be (and what it isn't).

[bittrojan]

(…)

Do you have any devs currently working on this project or are you actively looking for devs?

No, currently, there are no devs actively working on this project.

I'd love to, but I neither have the money, nor the prospects of generating money with this project. I could probably form a company and try to find corporate investors, but I don't really want to go corporate. There are similar businesses out there I'd have to compete with and I prefer the "linux approach" anyway.

Questions from newbie to newbie, since this project idea seems to want to avoid the outcomes of most altcoins:

1. Less important: what existing crypto problems does this project want to solve?
2. More  important: what existing crypto needs does it have?

I know the price tethering seems to be the mainstay to maintain if not steer its price but this seems to then artificially keep the value of the coin/token.

1.: I think there are multiple answers to this question, some of which still need to be found. My general answer would be this: while I like trading from time to time, it overall slows down mass adoption for two reasons:

The price of a coin changes, sometimes dramatically. Average Joe and Jane will not buy into something, that is so volatile, especially when they plan on using it for something else than speculation. I firmly believe that price stability is one of the key features a cryptocurrency needs to be mass adopted.
At the same time, I think it would be a waste to invent such a great thing as blockchain and have it just be a value storage tool. However, blockchains dedicated to one or a few special purposes have the problem, that their tokens are effectively tethered to their usefulness and while that sounds ok at first glance, this creates a whole bunch of problems.
Just imagine, how tiring it would be, if you would need different kinds of money for bread, electronic devices, gas (which already is volatile on its own), rent and so on, and worse than that, all these different currencies change their value all the time.
Bitcoin is the least volatile cryptocurrency we have, apart from Tether, obviously, and it is the most broadly used.
HUB: tries to create a system, in which people can use bitcoin to do all that fancy stuff, they would otherwise need a special token for.

The second reason is, that getting and using alternative currencies is a pain in the ass right now. First, you have to download a wallet, which needs to sync for ages. Then, you need to buy bitcoin, because you can't buy most currencies directly. Then you need to find out where to get them. And if, by then, you are not already fed up enough, every one of these coins has their own special rules you have to learn, to be able to actually use them.
In the HUB: network, the general rules don't change and you only need one client.

As a side effect, HUB: prevents "blockchain bloat", because it consists of many small chains, instead of one big one. Not only does that make syncing way faster (you just sync the parts you need), but you also don't need gigabytes of storage.

2.: I'm not sure I fully understand that question. It needs everything other blockchains need as well: It needs people who secure the circles. Custodians will be the equivalent to miners or stakers. It needs a client, it needs devs who are working on it… That kind of stuff. Or did I misunderstand it?

About the last part: the tethering is not artificial, because you will get back the exact amount of bitcoin the token holds, minus regular bitcoin transaction fees. Think of tokens as an envelope, containing the information on how to access these bitcoins. Now, creating a system in which this can be securely achieved without a too small number of regulating entities is HUB:s main obstacle.

This altcoin or what?
I dont see how much total supply. Need more information. thanks

No, this is not an Altcoin.
There is no "total supply", because tokens are created when needed. I think this thread contains sufficient information to answer questions about what this project is supposed to be (and what it isn't).

Just do an ico dude. Everyone does them. Id be interested in that one honestly.

[ttookk]

(…)

Just do an ico dude. Everyone does them. Id be interested in that one honestly.

There are not tokens to sell. The whole point of HUB: is, that it is not another altcoin.

[ttookk]

+++          Ring signatures?          +++

I gotta read up on that matter a little more, but that may well be the solution to the main problem we have here: How to prevent custodians from colluding to steal the funds. If you have a system in which no one can know who controls which key for which address and the possible combiantions are out of scope, you'd have a system which could work. A X-out-of-Y solution which doesn't need all keys makes the whole thing byzantine tolerant.

Yet still, one question, that remains, is: does a custodian know, which addresses they hold keys to? Is there a way to prevent that?