The dark secret of money the sheeple aren't supposed to know

[r0ach]

Let me start off by telling a story.  At the height of peak-altcoin, a guy I know released some garbage coin with the sole purpose of trying to make money in a pump and dump.  I told him, hey, why are you making this stupid scamcoin?  His response was, "just what exactly are we trying to do here?"  (i.e. being involved in cryptocurrency in the first place).

Before you try to create or engineer something, you first have to actually identify the problem you're trying to solve.  The problem to solve is not decentralization, it's creating an alternative to rent seeking usury, aka slavery.

The current state of cryptocurrency consists of closed entropy systems like Peercoin, which are internalized proof of stake, and open entropy Bitcoin PoW systems, which are just externalized proof of stake in practice, not decentralized.  Both are stake based and stake based systems have the following attributes, they're designed around someone monopolizing a variable then practicing rent seeking usury on everyone else.

The internalized stake is basically world domination on cruise control and should be shunned by anyone who doesn't want to be a slave, while the open entropy system of Bitcoin tends to give you the same result when you're just externalizing your metaphorical stake into the Pareto principle of the real world.  This means cryptocurrency solves really nothing in it's current state, and things like physical silver coins as a currency would be vastly superior in terms of both decentralization and avoidance of usury or seigniorage fee.

Having said that, if you were to try and improve on cryptocurrency in some way, you would be required to remove the stake variable entirely.  A system where you can't gain capital by leveraging assets on cruise control with no human intervention or attendance required.  The only way to do that off the top of my head is either unprofitable PoW (which seems like it wouldn't work in practice) or by having all senders of transactions solve some type of decentralized captcha or other proof of work that cannot be put on cruise control for profit.

[generalizethis]

No, the point is to have off-ramps for gambling earnings as that's the bubble the police state is always chasing--but as long as the politicians are as corrupt as the people they are supposed to be chasing, we're in the right hands. When the Joker burns the money, he is taking away the profit motive and turning it onto a control system, that's why if Morgan Freeman doesn't kill the cell phone rhizome of control, the joker wins. Even Batman can't be trusted with that type of power. The only good result is that two-face plays the odds and gambling returns to create a more natural state.

[iamnotback]

This means cryptocurrency solves really nothing in it's current state

I agree with that summary. My whitepaper explains in more detail, what you have summarized.

, and things like physical silver coins as a currency would be vastly superior in terms of both decentralization and avoidance of usury or seigniorage fee.

Unfortunately that can't be the case because of Gresham's law and the fact that sheeple prefer the money with the stamp which is backed by military force, because sheeple want hassle-free money that is enforced by the State. Study 1000s of years of history.³⁸

Having said that, if you were to try and improve on cryptocurrency in some way, you would be required to remove the stake variable entirely.  A system where you can't gain capital by leveraging assets on cruise control with no human intervention or attendance required.  The only way to do that off the top of my head is either unprofitable PoW (which seems like it wouldn't work in practice) or by having all senders of transactions solve some type of decentralized captcha or other proof of work that cannot be put on cruise control for profit.

As you know, I have already explained in my thread that unprofitable PoW (which was originally my idea) probably can't work. And you know I posit that my (not yet entirely published) whitepaper has the design which you wish for.

Here is a relevant quote from my whitepaper:

This eliminates the Synchronous and Aliasing flaws because transacting is orthogonal to synchronization of the total order, while also ameliorating the ability of the majority control over the resources of the system (e.g. the stake in DPoS-like election in #4) to do Censorship and have a Monopoly on systemic income which is Debasing. The Wasteful flaw is eliminated because it is not necessary to employ PoW in order have unbounded participation of both [redacted] nodes and those who transact as the decentralized decision makers on enforcing convergence to a total order and disincentivizing malevolence.

³⁸ Shelby Moore III. Value of currency has historically been public confidence in it as a reliable unit-of-exchange. Bitcointalk.org, “Precious metals are not useful in a collapse scenario!” thread, post #62, Nov 2, 2016.

[chesatochi]

You right that before making another altcoin without any purpose behind what you what to solve and you only desire his speculate on the price and make some money. The project will often fail and will die slowly and the altcoin will have no real value.

[r0ach]

I meant to add a disclaimer to the quote below:

A system where you can't gain capital by leveraging assets on cruise control with no human intervention or attendance required.

Some people will say that you aren't passively accumulating wealth by being an ASIC slumlord because you have to spend time and effort on ASIC R&D, but the amount of foundries in the world is so small that it's the equivalent of saying you're required to be a transnational corporation to participate at all in the endgame when the cartels form.

[Carlton Banks]

the amount of foundries in the world is so small that it's the equivalent of saying you're required to be a transnational corporation to participate at all in the endgame when the cartels form.

Did you know: it won't be like that forever. Possibly not for much longer, I'd be tempted to estimate a ~15 year shelf life for that paradigm.

[iamnotback]

, and things like physical silver coins as a currency would be vastly superior in terms of both decentralization and avoidance of usury or seigniorage fee.

Unfortunately that can't be the case because of Gresham's law and the fact that sheeple prefer the money with the stamp which is backed by military force, because sheeple want hassle-free money that is enforced by the State. Study 1000s of years of history.³⁸

³⁸ Shelby Moore III. Value of currency has historically been public confidence in it as a reliable unit-of-exchange. Bitcointalk.org, “Precious metals are not useful in a collapse scenario!” thread, post #62, Nov 2, 2016.

The circulating currency unit-of-exchange form of "money" (as differentiated from the Gresham's law hoarded higher quality store-of-value form of "money", e.g. pre-1965 U.S. silver dimes) is always subject to a power-vacuum on who is in control of the legality of legal tender.

Satoshi's PoW (and best-of-breed alternatives thus far such as DPoS) is also a winner-take-all power vacuum.

The world is not going to entrust the control of money to some cartel of mining farms in China, nor the whales who control 80% of the stake (money supply) of Steem(it).

This (along with user issues such as security, ease-of-use, and applicability to mainstream commerce) is why crypto-currency is stagnating. We haven't improved on the problem of money yet. The world will instead rather turn to a political power-sharing monetary reset wherein the IMF SDRs will be valued by weighted basket of national currencies, precious metals, and perhaps some key commodities.

If we are going to offer an alternative to the coming SDRs system (where national currencies will be backed by SDR reserves and all the nation-states will be destroyed by borrowing in SDRs with wages paid in depreciated national currencies, which is what destroyed the PIIGS especially Greece), then we need a crypto-currency that has an equilibrium which isn't a winner-take-all power vacuum disequilibria.

I have a whitepaper coming which proposes a radical new design for crypto-currency which is posited to be a solution. I also propose solutions for the other items holding back crypto-currencies (and blockchains) such as a solution to end exchanges fraud, a solution to eliminate theft of private keys, and a solution to making crypto mainstream (virtual) commerce.

[iamnotback]

the amount of foundries in the world is so small that it's the equivalent of saying you're required to be a transnational corporation to participate at all in the endgame when the cartels form.

Did you know: it won't be like that forever. Possibly not for much longer, I'd be tempted to estimate a ~15 year shelf life for that paradigm.

It won't matter. When you read my whitepaper, you will understand unequivocally why PoW is doomed to a winner-take-all power vacuum.

Don't you remember AnonyMint telling you two years ago that he was going to improve upon Bitcoin and Monero. Did you think I was joking?

[Carlton Banks]

I don't think you or your claims are credible. And you already know that.

[iamnotback]

I don't think you or your claims are credible. And you already know that.

I love being the underdog.

Nobody thought Satoshi was credible until he published. And then for a couple of years, very few people thought his invention was worthwhile.

New technology always blindsides most people. It is human nature to ignore everything which isn't proven.

Of course, I approve of your skepticism. You should be. Who the hell is some noname guy in his basement in the Philippines who thinks he can improve upon the $billions invested in R&D in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

[Carlton Banks]

Prove it then. Instead of waffling. For 5 years.

[iamnotback]

Prove it then. Instead of waffling. For 5 years.

There is no waffling. I've been significantly incapacitated by (what is by now apparently a liver+digestive) chronic illness since a life-threatening perforated ulcer in May 2012 which bathed my abdominal organs in stomach acid for 3 days.

Normal people do not understand what Chronic Fatigure Syndrome (clinical name in my context, Hepatic encephalopathy) and other MS-like autoimmunity symptoms do to the productivity of a person. I just don't think you comprehend what it means to work when as soon as you wake up, you feel like you haven't slept for 48 hours and your head wants to rest on the keyboard and your eyes feel droopy and you mind can't coalesce thoughts.

But the irony will be the Bitcoin killer comes from a disabled person. Lol. I love the challenge!

I'll have a full set of medical documents from a reputable hospital by January. Will scan and share, because I know nobody on Bitcointalk can be trusted.

(Massive excruciating effort has been plowed into athletics lately with a fucked up liver + probably a blind loop small intestine. When there is a will, there is a way, if you are superman.)

[davis196]

Let me start off by telling a story.  At the height of peak-altcoin, a guy I know released some garbage coin with the sole purpose of trying to make money in a pump and dump.  I told him, hey, why are you making this stupid scamcoin?  His response was, "just what exactly are we trying to do here?"  (i.e. being involved in cryptocurrency in the first place).

Before you try to create or engineer something, you first have to actually identify the problem you're trying to solve.  The problem to solve is not decentralization, it's creating an alternative to rent seeking usury, aka slavery.

The current state of cryptocurrency consists of closed entropy systems like Peercoin, which are internalized proof of stake, and open entropy Bitcoin PoW systems, which are just externalized proof of stake in practice, not decentralized.  Both are stake based and stake based systems have the following attributes, they're designed around someone monopolizing a variable then practicing rent seeking usury on everyone else.

The internalized stake is basically world domination on cruise control and should be shunned by anyone who doesn't want to be a slave, while the open entropy system of Bitcoin tends to give you the same result when you're just externalizing your metaphorical stake into the Pareto principle of the real world.  This means cryptocurrency solves really nothing in it's current state, and things like physical silver coins as a currency would be vastly superior in terms of both decentralization and avoidance of usury or seigniorage fee.

Having said that, if you were to try and improve on cryptocurrency in some way, you would be required to remove the stake variable entirely.  A system where you can't gain capital by leveraging assets on cruise control with no human intervention or attendance required.  The only way to do that off the top of my head is either unprofitable PoW (which seems like it wouldn't work in practice) or by having all senders of transactions solve some type of decentralized captcha or other proof of work that cannot be put on cruise control for profit.

All those scamcoins ruin the reputation of the cryptocurrency world and increase

the number of bitcoin haters.

If you think that using cryptocurrencies is pointless just don`t use them.

[iamnotback]

Let me start off by telling a story.  At the height of peak-altcoin, a guy I know released some garbage coin with the sole purpose of trying to make money in a pump and dump.  I told him, hey, why are you making this stupid scamcoin?  His response was, "just what exactly are we trying to do here?"  (i.e. being involved in cryptocurrency in the first place).

Before you try to create or engineer something, you first have to actually identify the problem you're trying to solve.  The problem to solve is not decentralization, it's creating an alternative to rent seeking usury, aka slavery.

The current state of cryptocurrency consists of closed entropy systems like Peercoin, which are internalized proof of stake, and open entropy Bitcoin PoW systems, which are just externalized proof of stake in practice, not decentralized.  Both are stake based and stake based systems have the following attributes, they're designed around someone monopolizing a variable then practicing rent seeking usury on everyone else.

The internalized stake is basically world domination on cruise control and should be shunned by anyone who doesn't want to be a slave, while the open entropy system of Bitcoin tends to give you the same result when you're just externalizing your metaphorical stake into the Pareto principle of the real world.  This means cryptocurrency solves really nothing in it's current state, and things like physical silver coins as a currency would be vastly superior in terms of both decentralization and avoidance of usury or seigniorage fee.

Having said that, if you were to try and improve on cryptocurrency in some way, you would be required to remove the stake variable entirely.  A system where you can't gain capital by leveraging assets on cruise control with no human intervention or attendance required.  The only way to do that off the top of my head is either unprofitable PoW (which seems like it wouldn't work in practice) or by having all senders of transactions solve some type of decentralized captcha or other proof of work that cannot be put on cruise control for profit.

All those scamcoins ruin the reputation of the cryptocurrency world and increase

the number of bitcoin haters.

If you think that using cryptocurrencies is pointless just don`t use them.

You registered on Dec. 2015.

You have a lot of learn from those of us who have been here for many years and have studied the issues in depth.

You don't even appear to comprehend his OP.

More or less you seem to think Bitcoin isn't doomed to a winner-take-all power vacuum on mining.

[iamnotback]

The economics of Bitcoin's security model are well tuned to force control by the global "State":

Btw, in section 7.1 of my whitepaper I have disproved the thesis of this blog:

http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/

PoW is not the cheapest (least wasteful) for the equivalent security. The illiquidity cost in my design orders-of-magnitude less than the illiquidity cost of PoW for comparable security level, because PoW requires a huge globally superior sunk cost to eliminate the risk of rented hashrate attacks. (Smooth this is the essence of Satoshi's flaw which you felt was the weakest point in his whitepaper).

For example, 10 second finality epochs provide 4320 epochs per day, so its an opportunity cost of 100% interest rate per day if the net profit from service fees earned by the [redacted] nodes are 1 ÷ 4320 of the value of transactions secured by illiquid collateral. The opportunity cost of PoW mining farms is not within orders-of-magnitude of 100% return-on-investment per day. Free market competition will not necessarily drive the return-on-investment from service fees lower because service fees are insignificant thus irrelevant to the transacting participants. Given the lower barrier to entry to and exit from the [redacted] nodes market, the diversified market for service fees can anneal to not lower than any commensurate opportunity cost in the external markets. Whereas, PoW has massive sunk costs barriers to entry/exit which provide dumb/captive (or corrupt charged to the collective, e.g. fiat usury, Yuan/dollar exchange manipulation, subsidized electricity) capital a moat to justify return-on-investment which is only prospectively competitive to external market opportunity costs with a winner-take-all cartel expectation.

[BTCat]

Cryptocurrencies give us the opportunity to digitally control our own money and really own it instead of being dependent on banks that operate on fractional reserve.

That's enough reason for its existence.

Most cryptocurrencies have been so cheap that everyone had and still has a chance to buy a decent portfolio. POS is a great system because you help to support the network and get a reward for that. The earlier you are involved, the higher the reward. This is just like being an early investor in a successfull business. If you make the wrong choices then you lose.

Don't invest in the ponzi schemes and research the coin and community before investing, it's not easy but it's needed because yes indeed, whereever there is money there are also crooks around who like to take advantage of the technology instead of helping build a fair financial system.

[Sir Alpha_goy]

All 7 episodes neatly packed up and delivered to you for free.

The only cost is one soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU&list=PLE88E9ICdipidHkTehs1VbFzgwrq1jkUJ

[jacaf01]

There is no doubt that 95% of Altcoins have no real value and no need for existing.

Concerning Bitcoin POW winner takes all argument, I can tell you there won't be any system that will be 100% without any flaw.

[Ai7xpressTV]

only 1% of Altcoin have a réal  raodmap who increase their valeu, and have a real projects to make a différent in the word of Cryptocurrencies.

[iamnotback]

Cryptocurrencies give us the opportunity to digitally control our own money and really own it instead of being dependent on banks that operate on fractional reserve.

That's enough reason for its existence.

I agree except please note that Satoshi's proof-of-work will unavoidably end up (probably already is) controlled by a cartel of miners who can censor your ability to transact. Imagine they are bribed to exclude you. Or the coming world finance government (e.g. IMF, World Bank, SDRs replacing the dollar as the global reserve currency) regulates the miners and dictates who can and can't transact. At the moment, this developing cartel is not focused on censoring you, but rather on gaining a monopoly on transaction fees, so that they can raise their income to the maximum that the market will bear. This is the politics around the blocksize debate. I wrote in great detail about this in my coming whitepaper (excepts have been published to these forums already). Any entrenched centralized control ultimately ends up being co-opted by the State and the political power vacuum of collectivism. We have 1000s of years of human history without any exception!

So it is not enough to say we control the private keys. We must also have a global ledger consensus which is impervious to centralization. So far, neither Satoshi's Proof-of-Work (PoW), nor state-of-the-art alternatives such as Bitshare's (Steemit's) Delegated Proof-of-Stake (aka DPoS, combined with Transactions as Proof-of-Stake (TaPoS)), avoid the centralization of control of the global ledger consensus.

As I have alluded to, I believe I have a design alternative which provides a solution to this fundamental problem that has been plaguing society since time eternal.

Concerning Bitcoin POW winner takes all argument, I can tell you there won't be any system that will be 100% without any flaw.

Life requires flaws. It is precisely flaws that make us unique and alive. If everything was predetermined (flawless), then nothing would exist. The past and future would collapse into indistinguishable (the light cones of special relativity would collapse onto each other). Life requires that real-time omniscience is impossible, which is a conceptual analogy of flaws (i.e. that not all of our actions can be congruent always in real-time).

However what we are talking about here is not attaining "perfection" (not attaining holistic congruence), but rather how to have a system which has some ordered state of equilibrium which is not trending towards Coasian costs maladaptation implosion. In other words, we want a system with maximal degrees-of-freedom. The flaw of PoW and DPoS is they lack degrees-of-freedom because they depend on the economies-of-scale control of some finite resource (mining or stake).

Thus, I believe there can be a design for global consensus which has a form of decentralized equilibrium.


Please read my summary of altcoins.