Is the alternative cryptocurrency market flooded?

[iamnotback]

Flooded? No way!

I think they mean it is flooded with scams and bullshit. True.

I'd like to see more ideas more experiments using blockchains, and more people doing it.

Some of the best stuff is yet to come.

Agreed. I can say this with first-hand knowledge confidence, because I know the technology I have already written down into an extensive white paper, which I am attempting to bring in an altcoin.

Seriously folks, there is technology that can make Satoshi's Proof-of-Work look silly in hindsight. I know it sounds far-fetched and ludicrous. And I know it sounds like a scam. But as others have said here, it should be open sourced and experts should have the opportunity to analyze and critique it.

Problem was in the past when experts such as gmaxwell, smooth, myself and others tried to warn the forum about the sloppy technological flaws in Dash, Vcash, Ethereum, CounterParty, side-chains, etc..., we were always attacked. So we decided to STFU. And let speculators destroy themselves. The speculators thought that the "experts" were trying to bad mouth necessary competition, and in some respects I agree. I think speculators losses are a necessary part of the unbounded free market we need for innovation to flourish.

Speculators you will need to learn to recognize who on these forums does not post disingenuously. I would tell you right now that person is @smooth. If he posts something incorrect or which I disagree with technically, we debate it. And he acquiesces to the truth (which is nearly always just a subtle perspective difference from anything he had written, because he is very astute).

There are others who are smart but often post disingenuously (politically), e.g. iCEBREAKER. There are others who are very smart in their respective fields, but who don't have enough knowledge about the various aspects of blockchain technology and thus sometimes post incorrect interpretations, e.g. aminorex.

I will say that both @smooth and myself have apparently learned that some of our initial technological assumptions were incorrect. For example, we were both initially heavily against proof-of-stake. I'd guess we both still are (can't speak for @smooth), i.e. still recognize the flaws in PoS (even in DPoS), but also at least in my case, I have become more aware that the flaws in PoW are equivalent or worse. Ditto on PoW distribution being ideal. So this has given me caution lately about attacking other coins. We "experts" try our best to be accurate, but we will also have myopia in some cases.

"expert" is relative, YMMV.

No one person is omniscient. Need a group of "experts" who debate. But the problem is when "experts" are disingenuous or influenced by their vested interests, so then the debate may not be open-minded. And even the best grouping of "experts" can still sometimes be myopic. But the forum is more rife with non-experts who flood the threads with incorrect interpretations and the "experts" get drowned out by noise and n00b (esp. "millennials snowflakes") fantasies.

[jjacob]

Flooded? No way!
I'd like to see more ideas more experiments using blockchains, and more people doing it.

Some of the best stuff is yet to come.

The question is do we need hundreds of alts being listed, raising funds and then dying a quick death? People who have no new ideas shouldn't be creating me-too alts just to make a quick buck.

[Snorek]

Let's face it - great altcoins are short lived pump and dump schemes created not because developers wanted to change the world with it but to grab fast buck.
As long as anyone can create their own altcoin and there is even slight possibility that it will bring money then ICOs will continue to spread.
But fear not - I expect that after some time people would get tired of the same recycled scheme and we will see less and less shitty coins created.

[iamnotback]

Flooded? No way!
I'd like to see more ideas more experiments using blockchains, and more people doing it.

Some of the best stuff is yet to come.

The question is do we need hundreds of alts being listed, raising funds and then dying a quick death? People who have no new ideas shouldn't be creating me-too alts just to make a quick buck.

That is for the decentralized free market of speculators to decide. Do you really want an altcoin police? You want to hand control of the free market to some authority who will of course abuse their authority and kill innovation.

But fear not - I expect that after some time people would get tired of the same recycled scheme and we will see less and less shitty coins created.

When a serious altcoin lands, the rest of the shit is going to die (be greatly diminished). I specifically hope to be the person to make this happen.

But I want it done in a free market manner. Meaning unbounded (open to) competition.

By serious, I mean million users of adoption. Results talk, bullshit walks. At that point, the bullshitters need to put up a million users or STFU.

I added the following edit:

Problem was in the past when experts such as gmaxwell, smooth, myself and others tried to warn the forum about the sloppy technological flaws in Dash, Vcash, Ethereum, CounterParty, side-chains, etc..., we were always attacked. So we decided to STFU. And let speculators destroy themselves. The speculators thought that the "experts" were trying to bad mouth necessary competition, and in some respects I agree. I think speculators losses are a necessary part of the unbounded free market we need for innovation to flourish.

[iCEBREAKER]

there is technology that can make Satoshi's Proof-of-Work look silly in hindsight

You seem smart enough to understand extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet fail to provide it precisely where required.

That reeks of dishonesty.  The "hey guys I've got a BIG SECRET" behavior is typical Shelby The Attention Princess.

There are others who are smart but often post disingenuously (politically), e.g. iCEBREAKER.

There you go again.  Grand, sweeping claim, presented with zero evidence.  I must presume you intend to insult our intelligence by expecting readers to swallow your assertion without critical evaluation.

How am I to defend myself against your nebulous defamation unless you provide examples demonstrating your accusation has some specific basis in reality?

As for PoS, Charles Hoskinson claims to have cracked that nut with some formal proof of soundness.  I'll leave verification of his claim to the appropriate domain experts, because unlike you, I know where my limits are and attempt to push back against Dunning-Kruger effects.

Decred is also making a go of it, but IMO their convoluted approach only confirms no elegant PoS schema currently exists.

If you want to know what the invisible hand thinks of PoS, look at Decred's and Peercoin's market caps.

[bbc.reporter]

I decided to start this discussion, not as a means to distribute negativity or defect the credibility of projects alternative to bitcoin (I myself am a supporter of numerous blockchain projects other than bitcoin),

Let me stop you there. First please tell us which legitimate projects that you support are getting their credibility hurt because the market is "flooded" with cryptocoins that seem to be scams. I ask you this because it is looking like you are thinking that the projects you support cannot see the light of day because there are simply too much cryptocoins to choose from.

[iamnotback]

Readers, I PM'ed iCEBREAKER making him aware I had mentioned him... it is good to get his feedback here...

there is technology that can make Satoshi's Proof-of-Work look silly in hindsight

You seem smart enough to understand extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet fail to provide it precisely where required.

It is a fair point and I accept it.

There is discussion here about whether anything serious (that could be better than Bitcoin) could come out of altcoins, and I believe based on my own work, that it can.

I can't open source my white paper until I have an implementation.

That reeks of dishonesty.  The "hey guys I've got a BIG SECRET" behavior is typical Shelby The Attention Princess.

Dishonesty is the not the correct allegation. I have never posted a single comment on these forums that was shown to be intentionally dishonest. Here is an example of your disingenuous posting style. You attack my ethics without any proof. As you wrote, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet fail to provide it precisely where required". So you are being a hypocrite.

Now the second part of your statement is reasonable. Yes I agree maybe I am being an Attention Princess. But so was Vitalik. And it worked very well in marketing. I am a marketer. And I am doing a damn good job of marketing myself. That may make you jealous, but if my marketing ends up being joined with a successful project, then you will just have to admit I am talented and resourceful.

We will see... (again a lot hinges on my bad health unfortunately for me, because I would love to make you eat your words and even void of any animosity just to a manly competition sort of thing)

There are others who are smart but often post disingenuously (politically), e.g. iCEBREAKER.

There you go again.  Grand, sweeping claim, presented with zero evidence.

Evidence above.    

As for PoS, Charles Hoskinson claims to have cracked that nut with some formal proof of soundness.  I'll leave verification of his claim to the appropriate domain experts, because unlike you, I know where my limits are and attempt to push back against Dunning-Kruger effects.

I have already commented about that. He has apparently proven some soundness of security under certain presumptions about the distribution of the stake, but this doesn't prove anything about the winner-take-all power vacuum. He is also very clear that he hasn't even attempted to prove anything about that. Ask him or just read the caveats mentioned in the whitepaper.

Whereas, my design doesn't require the majority of the stake to not be controlled an attacker.

Decred is also making a go of it, but IMO their convoluted approach only confirms no elegant PoS schema currently exists.

I haven't followed Decred. I can't keep up with following all the altcoins. There are too many.

If you want to know what the invisible hand thinks of PoS, look at Decred's and Peercoin's market caps.

Don't forget Steem which is DPoS.

Any way, my design isn't just PoW nor (D)PoS.


Note to readers, that being an Attention Princess can also be a sign of not being an active coder. This ended up being true in Vitalik's case also. Coders tend to be silent and let their code speak.

[fortunecrypto]

After 5 months of trading altcoin,the altcoin is indeed over flooded and it's hard to find which is which among these altcoins,traders keeps on looking for the new innovation in the market,thinking that a new bitcoin is coming,I'm lucky to have invested on 5 stable crypto currency but I'm still looking for this new innovation and see if they can pass my criteria but so far in the last two months only one or two coins are reliable.

[blackhawk101]

I decided to start this discussion, not as a means to distribute negativity or defect the credibility of projects alternative to bitcoin (I myself am a supporter of numerous blockchain projects other than bitcoin), but merely as a means to get some feedback and thoughts from the bitcointalk community regarding the Alternative cryptocurrency market as it stands as well as the too many coins that are just worthless.

1. Is the alt coin market flooded?

2. As a result, is the current status of the alt coin market more than likely to scare off new to crypto investors/traders because of the fact that almost every other day a new ICO is on the cards and in most cases the information presented might be overwhelming to anyone outside of crypto?

3. Do you think we are becoming/have become more of a "penny stocks market" in the view of the general public other than a true and feasible alternative to the world economy?

4. Has the rise/era of crowdfunding done more harm than good toward blockchain projects and the now more than 600 crypto currencies in circulation?

5. What can be done to improve on the overall perception associated with cryptography/alt coins from an outsiders perspective?

6. Should websites that list altcoins such as coinmarketcap remove the majority of the coins listed or at least list according to far stricter criteria?



These are just a few questions I've been toying with and formulating my own opinions toward. Please feel free to add to these questions and give your own feedback and ideas about where we are and where we're going?

Thanks

Are you writing a school paper?

[iamnotback]

There are several clear red flags:

Premine != 0 => scam

Ethereum was a scam?

How do you expect the developers to be funded? Don't tell me wasting so much time and inability to plan ahead because need to beg for donations.

I would rather argue that it is the size of the premine that matters. The goal is wide distribution of the tokens, so any premine/ICO/ninja mine, has to be congruent with that. It is the objectivity of the distribution that matters. Mining is nearly equivalent to ICO, except that an ICO issuer can buy it from himself.

I guess you can argue that if the premine is small enough for people to accept, the developer is fairly rewarded.

"Work for donations" is failure because...

Define "fair"? There is no fair. The only thing that matters is who designs the correct combination that succeeds (e.g. a very restricted distribution won't succeed long-term). Fair has nothing to do with it. Rather I think the term you want to apply here is "objective". If the distribution is objectively based on free market competition (a form of merit), then it is driven by maximizing success (which is what free markets anneal to absent Coasian costs).

Please spread this message to the spoiled-brat Millennials

I know politics is not your interest. But you are smart enough to understand why "everything equal" is always horrific failure that leads to war and megadeath. Please read this quote and understand why you must stop teaching your friends and kids the bullshit about "the rich are evil and everything must be equal". The Ten Commandments tell us not to covet what our neighbor has (and that includes accusing every rich person of being corrupt when in fact many people get rich by hard work!). The "99% versus 1%" movement is Satan whoreship!

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that.

I had a conversation in a hotel with someone who was very much a believer in man created global warming. I began to notice a pattern to their thinking. When you test anything, you must see how it is connected to other reasoning. What emerged was a fundamental belief that government is good and there to take care of you until you die. This notion appears to be linked to those who just want to be taken care of, but not to the point that they are on welfare. They will pretend to be independent thinking individuals, but there is a core surrender of independence because they do not want to think no one is in charge. They voted for Hillary as well, and this all seems linked to this desire not to be responsible for the future in a subtle way. Perhaps it is linked to childhood when you did not have to work or cook. They just took care of you. It seems that those who believe in global warming are more likely to trust government. What happens when they wake up and discover nothing is as they thought it would be?

I am becoming deeply concerned that the United States is headed into its version of a communist revolution under the label “progressive” and the bankers, who Larry Summers has always supported, will be used as the scapegoat for Wall Street and the “rich” who have to be stripped of their liberty and their money for the “good of the people” as they always say. The United States does not look like it will be a country we can recognize by 2032 if we can even make it past 2024. The United States will most likely break apart by 2036. There are separatist movements rising in many areas from Vermont and Texas to California, who reasons they voted for Hillary not Trump justifying their departure.

The entire purpose of eliminating cash is to strip us of our assets, liberty, and to prevent bank runs. The youth, who have been brainwashed by Bernie Sanders and people like Elizabeth Warren, will turn against the older generation and enslave them if at all possible. This threatens our future with outright civil war. They will not be satisfied until they destroy the freedom of their opposition. It is starting to appear that 2036 is our date with destiny.

I saw NBA legend Kevin Garnett using the term "not progressive enough" on national TV in his condemnation of coaching great Phil Jackson (when Jackson referred to Lebron's "posse").

[BrewMaster]

anyone with a quick glance at the altcoin announcement board or even these sites that list altcoins like coinmarketcap can easily say market is flooded and if you go deeper into each one of these it is again obvious that nothing is different between majority of these coins! they copy and paste

[Zer0Sum]

Flooded? No way!
I'd like to see more ideas more experiments using blockchains, and more people doing it.

Some of the best stuff is yet to come.

Ya man, the fun is just beginning.

What amazes me is that there is STILL no proper Alt Coin Index...
Just using the Top 20 or whatever is lazy and pointless and tracking bubbles...
All the money is made getting into interesting longshots early (too many such alts to list).

I absolutely guarantee you...
That right now in Announcements there are at least 2 longshots that will go > 1000% within months.

[irukandji]

I will say that both @smooth and myself have apparently learned that some of our initial technological assumptions were incorrect. For example, we were both initially heavily against proof-of-stake. I'd guess we both still are (can't speak for @smooth), i.e. still recognize the flaws in PoS (even in DPoS), but also at least in my case, I have become more aware that the flaws in PoW are equivalent or worse. Ditto on PoW distribution being ideal. So this has given me caution lately about attacking other coins. We "experts" try our best to be accurate, but we will also have myopia in some cases.

What about proof of Capacity? POC
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1541310.0

[xypos]

There are a lot of scam altcoins out there. Obviously. ICOs are quick and easy money for those who are experienced enough to seem like that they are doing something legit this time, but really just repeating the same smart contract and smart monetary management idea over and over and over and over and over again.

Still, bitcoin can be drastically improved. However what we need is sidechains and forks, not altcoins.

[tardi]

Flooded? No way!
I'd like to see more ideas more experiments using blockchains, and more people doing it.

Some of the best stuff is yet to come.

You are right. In order to have real innovation we need a lot of failures first. This can only happen if you let people experiment.

[iamnotback]

However what we need is sidechains and forks, not altcoins.

Sorry but I think you are technically incorrect (about the security and viability of the side-chains concept). And it is also why I think Rootstock is another shitcoin.

I am not going to go off on this tangent right now.

This is the dilemma for speculators, is they don't know the technology deep enough to really know if what they think is correct.

Of course it is understandable that you would trust the vast expertise of Blockstream, that is until you consider the conjecture that their alleged business model might be corrupting their judgement:

http://btcmarketwatch.com/2015/08/the-blockstream-business-plan/

But it is not for me to be altcoin police, so feel free to speculate on what ever you think.

[iamnotback]

In any case, looks like another Bitcoin fever is about to be ignited in 2017, so we have another mad gold rush likely coming at us soon. So expect the altcoin sector to go even more bananas crazy as a result...

Remember what LTC did in the 2013 bubble! It will probably be a different altcoin in the 2017 - 2019 time frame, which does another 100X rocketshot (maybe 1000X from the lowest prices).

And so as I told you: Bitcoin Price Watch; Breakout Time!

Looks like a serious breakout to ATHs is within months:

Core is working on a 2mb hardfork proposal, testing is in progress! Amazing news!

" 4) Some of us also agreed to work on another hardfork proposal including a 2 MB "no wallet changes necessary" block size bump, which we've been making progress on over the past year, including even after conclusion of the original agreement (there is currently a testnet for an incomplete version running)."

http://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5gcg98/will_there_be_no_capacity_improvements_for_the/darfdyg/

Note they need the raise the upper limit of block size (while lowering the average block size with the one-time SegWit compression) in order to accommodate surge load and also one of the flaws of Lightning Networks is it can place very high surge load on the blockchain.

So although this isn't the fix for the long-term, it is a near-term solution to open the throttle on Bitcoin adoption.

Re: is it time to start seriously talking about a $5000 BTC

I expected a correction because the price went too high too quickly. Most of the time when we see it spike high like that, it will come back a little.

They will play you as well, because you'll be the one who sells too early when the price rocket goes into a phase transition run to ATHs. They will eventually do that after they done shaking weak hands out. Your stance can be characterized as another form of weak hand because of selling too soon into a bull run.

The first bubble to $1200 in 2013 was the first hump of the typical new technology invesment. The second major hump is the big enchilada and you should never sell except possibly to trade to altcoins to increase your BTC, if you are so inclined and are astute at such speculation.

BTC appears to be currently at either the early 2007 or the late 2009 point on that Amazon chart.

If we are at the late 2009 correlation, then $1000 will be scaled in 2017 and we will not go back below $1000 after that.

And yes something in range of $2500 - $5000 over the next couple of years looks plausible and even likely.

Just look at the events around us to see what is accelerating:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1703363.msg17077372#msg17077372
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1699911.msg17077124#msg17077124
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1703213.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1687448.msg17056883#msg17056883
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg16842246#msg16842246
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg16921886#msg16921886
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg16972102#msg16972102


It Is Just Time.

Time is upon us for BTC to make another big move up. Don't be late to board the train because you are irrationally too cautious:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1663070.msg17049006#msg17049006

[Zer0Sum]

This is the dilemma for speculators, is they don't know the technology deep enough to really know if what they think is correct.

When something as white bread as STRAT (known Dev, .NET version of BTC plus shiny objects)...
Is trading at 700% of ICO in the icy depths of an Alt Bear Market...
The situation is hardly hopeless for anyone committed to analyzing the Announcements section...
Or even just following 5-10 Hero Members that stay on top of things.

Overthinking this sector is almost as bad as underthinking it.

[monsanto]

all is shit.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

The answer is yes, yes, yes, to all of this.  I've said this in other threads like these that come up.  There are too many coins out there, and nobody is ever going to use any of them for anything other than passing back and forth and playing the bagholder game.  They're all crap.  For me, it's basically bitcoin or bust.