I just don't get it...

[Geddi]

Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi

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[Zerial]

Don't worry. Stay in it for the long haul, and you won't be disappointed. The currency will fluctuate madly because it's a new concept, and if you want fast money, become a drug dealer or a politician. In the long run, this is the future of economy.

[Arcavum]

If bitcoin becomes too big, activists such as ourselves will simply move on to a different virtual currency.
New ones are being made all the time.

The best way currently, to fight the greed economy,  *which technically isn't an economy"  is to create a separate smaller  trade cycle that doesn't rely on it.

How do you think social security passed in the first place?  You think FDR did it from the goodness of his heart?

During the great depression, starved for money, people returned to a barter economy, trading goods directly.  That's what caused the New Deal. Rich people panicked.

What rich people fear more then anything, is that we won't need them anymore.

That's why they need to keep us scared. *and dependent*

If bitcoin becomes corrupted, then there will be an alternative.  The bitcoin network is open source, and that makes it impossible to stifle.  And perhaps the community will become wiser over time.

*Its a hope*

[wopwop]

why do you say such bad things about bitcoin?

just be a believer, it's all we ask

[FenixRD]

Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi

Any evil bankers will do the same they do with the stock market. Shake the branches, collect the spoils that fall. Repeated pump-and-dump. This necessitates they rebuy, and why wouldn't they? It's free money from the skittish investors who can't stomach the market movements. It's a far trip to the days that this threatens anything so severely that it gathers attention from any uberbankers who try to crash it entirely. I'd expect something more akin to the 1933 Gold Confiscation Act...

Unless you are a Keynesian at heart, watching the price rise, regardless of why, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins. Back around 4 years ago I'd mined several hundred for shits and giggles. No idea where they are. Spent an hour or so searching old externals for any bitcoin stuff but no luck. Am I concerned? Only that I can't get that hour of my life back.

[Arcavum]

Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi

Any evil bankers will do the same they do with the stock market. Shake the branches, collect the spoils that fall. Repeated pump-and-dump. This necessitates they rebuy, and why wouldn't they? It's free money from the skittish investors who can't stomach the market movements. It's a far trip to the days that this threatens anything so severely that it gathers attention from any uberbankers who try to crash it entirely. I'd expect something more akin to the 1933 Gold Confiscation Act...

Unless you are a Keynesian at heart, watching the price rise, regardless of why, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins. Back around 4 years ago I'd mined several hundred for shits and giggles. No idea where they are. Spent an hour or so searching old externals for any bitcoin stuff but no luck. Am I concerned? Only that I can't get that hour of my life back.

What you just stated is an assumption though.

It's not your fault, most people fail to understand the discrepancies in price.

In the price of a pizza, many variables are ignored.  Such as the cost of raising cattle, pigs.  The labor required to grow tomatoes...etc;

If market value actually reflected the true cost of manufacturing, most pizzas/hamburgers would cost in the realm of 200 dollars. 

So, it isn't fair market value that is determining anything.  It's subsidies.  Most prices are completely made up.  In that regard, the free market can't ever be, because the government plays such an integral role in keeping prices low on most things.

For their to be realistic market value of any kind, most fast food chains would have to file for bankruptcy. And most people would have to grow their own vegetables for sustenance. *Because that would be the most affordable way*

Bitcoin at least seems more reasonable in what people charge for services.  And even if the prices are made up, they seem more logical then what exists in the broader monetary structure.

[Geddi]

The best way currently, to fight the greed economy,  *which technically isn't an economy"  is to create a separate smaller  trade cycle that doesn't rely on it.

That is exactly my point  

why do you say such bad things about bitcoin?

just be a believer, it's all we ask

I am a HUGE fan of the bitcoin idea. Don't worry about that. I am just worried that we will grow into some 'mutual dependence' with fiat money. I'm not trying to make bitcoin look bad.

, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins.

And that's exactly the opposite of my point... I don't feel bad about that pizza, I feel good about that pizza. I've ordered a lot of domino's that made me feel a lot worse  
I meant that we should leave the idea that bitcoins are worth money. Bitcoins is not the thing you can buy with money, it's the money you buy something with, they are a method of giving someone a "IOU" in a safe manner without some big (and sometimes corrupt) company managing the IOUs

[FenixRD]

I haven't had enough caffeine yet to reply to Arc's post. I'm going to assume he's got some sort of valid point. I got lost around $200 hamburgers and subsidies. Everything is only worth anything because we agree it is. Basket of berries, brick of gold, a dozen Satoshis, or a cold pizza.

I will state that my economic view of Bitcoin is that it will function 50% along the behavioral rules of a commodity; 20% as a currency due to flexibility and transport-ability (but not more, because it is deflationary and therefore encourages thrift), and 30% who-knows, because of brand new things never affecting a tradeable media before, at this scale. Social media and the network effect, etc, make this a hard beast to really predict.

tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC

[Arcavum]

And that's exactly the opposite of my point... I don't feel bad about that pizza. I've ordered a lot of domino's that made me feel a lot worse   I meant that we should leave the idea that bitcoins are worth money. Bitcoins are money, they are a method of giving someone a "IOU" in a safe manner without some big (and sometimes corrupt) company managing the IOUs

Sadly, most currencies are traded and bought and sold...*within their particular countries*

Since Bitcoin doesn't have a country and the internet is so vast,  it makes it seem like a commodity.
Though, I understand your point.  And I'd rather that currency wasn't speculated on.
It serves no logical purpose.

I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC

What is money? It's all made up, man.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

The difference with Bitcoin is that Bitcoin doesn't pretend to be valuable.  Bitcoin doesn't even pretend to truly exist. *Hence the name, Virtual currency*  Gold is a real fop. *It's not good for anything* but people assign a stupid value to it. 
That makes Bitcoin more realistic in my opinion.  At least Bitcoin knows that it's fake. 

[Geddi]

tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC

I must agree with your 'the way the most people think of money'. But to me (and not only me), gold is as much money as USD, JPY, Monopoly Buck, or that eternal blowjob last weekend.   Just an IOU.

My dreams and hopes are that with that spirit it is (hopefully) very hard to get 'greedy rich'. After all, in a strict IOU society a very rich person must have done very much work to earn that. If not, fraud has to be assumed present.

[Arcavum]

Oh and FenixRD.  You probably did miss my point.

According to classical economics, a price is determined by the amount of labor that goes into creating a product.  Correct?
So I was simply pointing out the flaws in that argument, as nothing that has a price, under current monetary rules, actually reflects the labor that goes into it.

Most price is dependent on perception.  The perception of value based on brand-status...etc;

...But many critical facets of production are ignored.  And the price of production is often externalized onto the tax payer or the environment, rather then being reflected in the actual price of what we buy.

The concept of money doesn't exist in the physical world, at the end of the day. It's abstract and as such, determined by the minds of whomever is throwing around the idea.

If people were more realistic in their view of the world, no inanimate object would be taken so seriously.

[FenixRD]

What is money? It's all made up, man.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

Lol... you can stop trying to play teacher now. No idea what led you to believe I ever thought anything other than what you insist: It's all fake, and only real if we make it so.

We may both be "Jr. Members" but I've been here anon since before most of our current hero members were even registered.

inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

[Arcavum]

I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.

[wopwop]

I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.

Loled

Not in this world we're not

Tho it does sound beautiful doesn't it

[Geddi]

...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.

 

[FenixRD]

tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC

I must agree with your 'the way the most people think of money'. But to me (and not only me), gold is as much money as USD, JPY, Monopoly Buck, or that eternal blowjob last weekend.   Just an IOU.

My dreams and hopes are that with that spirit it is (hopefully) very hard to get 'greedy rich'. After all, in a strict IOU society a very rich person must have done very much work to earn that. If not, fraud has to be assumed present.

For most people, the preferred unit of trade becomes money, because it is easily trade-able, and many other things we call "moneyness" which is being hotly discussed right now. Like heads of cattle, or salt back in the day (worth his weight in salt!). Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

Objectively, BTC possess all the qualities of gold, without the known and accepted weaknesses (try getting your brainwallet confiscated at a border crossing, as just happened with a carfull of gold, among other things). Will the people accept it long-term? Will a critical weakness arise? Hmm...

[Arcavum]

 

Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

...Which in layman's terms means "Ooooooooooo shiny"

I honestly don't see how some people can dispute evolution when they're a walking contradiction.

[Geddi]

For most people, the preferred unit of trade becomes money, because it is easily trade-able, and many other things we call "moneyness" which is being hotly discussed right now. Like heads of cattle, or salt back in the day (worth his weight in salt!). Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

Indeed. But sadly, our preferred unit has been hijacked and filled with so called 'rules' which enable the greedy few to get even more greedy. Gold and salt are just as useful as bitcoins for escaping this economic escapade   But it's World 2.0 so why not try bitcoin!

Will the people accept it long-term?

I most certainly hope so!

Will a critical weakness arise? Hmm...

For critical weaknesses, it is an open source and adaptable protocol so i'm sure it's able to conquer a lot of bumps in the road with relative ease. It's just preferring a wrong 'fork of the blockchain' right now to my opinion.
 

[FenixRD]

I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.

Very Zen. Nah, I'm not Satoshi. He'd never admit it anyway. I was making a joke at myself for playing the "I've been here since the beginning" card. One thing's certain... when dealing with economics, there are no end of good arguments to be had. It's complex.

disclosure, my field is applied maths, I studied mostly game theory and related subjects. Fitting human behavior to the models is the sticky bit.

[FenixRD]

Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

...Which in layman's terms means "Ooooooooooo shiny"

I honestly don't see how some people can dispute evolution when they're a walking contradiction.

Hmm. Well, if we're going to be serious for a moment: At first there were surely plenty of people who traded gold for whatever (labor, salt, ??) because they wanted the shiny. But it only became accepted and preferred as money for properties like being hard to counterfeit, relatively plentiful, and identical worth between traders (ie, an ounce is an ounce whether from a pretty girl or a shabby, sick hobo... not the same for the aforementioned blowjobs, or more interestingly, for brand-new cloth, foodstuffs, etc.)

Not many things really meet these criteria. Other elements, but gold is nicely in the middle of availability cross-continents, soft enough to subdivide, "easy" to verify. Platinum falls short without more recent tech, as does diamonds and other shinies. Really, you only have elements to choose from, and maybe crystalline forms of them, to consider if you are creating a monetary standard even a few hundred years ago.

[Geddi]

btw why are so many people here posting a bitcoin address in their sig   

[Arcavum]

I don't question people anymore, I accept them as they are.
There's far less stress to be had in the world, that way.

disclosure, my field is applied maths, I studied mostly game theory and related subjects. Fitting human behavior to the models is the sticky bit.

Ah, math,  My old arch nemesis. *

I wouldn't try to fit human behavior to a series of number.  The reason why is because no math can compensate for the variables of individuality.

You cannot understand life by lumping whole species into a single category.  Every person is unique to a tee.
...And no one person sees the world exactly the same way.

We'd make far more progress by simply getting to know people and hearing their stories.  *That's what would end wars and conflict.  The realization that we might be able to relate to each other*

However that's just radical new-age hooey, right?

Regardless, I think that if we truly wish to evolve further as a species, then we need to stop valuing things because they're shiny.
In the process of mining gold, people die.  And territorial conflicts ensue...etc;

Same thing goes for any mineral, alloy...etc;



The pursuit of ever more, rocks *essentially* we are devaluing the preciousness of life.  

...And what becomes of all that gold? It rots in a vault somewhere.  It's never used, nor circulated.  But rather used as a leverage of power.  *Giving some people a feeling of superiority because they have tons of a yellow rock, wasting away in their safe*

I believe that an indirect result of trading with currency is hoarding.  And only when we've made a currency that can't be hoarded and that forces you to have to spend it, will economies be unbreakable.

...Because right now, people care too much about the currencies themselves.  They forget that they don't cease to be a human being just because they have nothing.  So they shouldn't let an object define them, nor depend on it.

btw why are so many people here posting a bitcoin address in their sig

I don't mine bitcoins.  I actually work for them, so for me it's convenient and sort of a necessity.

[Geddi]

We'd make far more progress by simply getting to know people and hearing their stories.  *That's what would end wars and conflict.  The realization that we might be able to relate to each other*

War would probably not exist if more people could imagine themselves in someone else's position and understand their 'war-starting actions'. I've deflected many foetal wars by thinking myself into the opponent's position.

...And what becomes of all that gold? It rots in a vault somewhere.  It's never used, nor circulated.  But rather used as a leverage of power.  *Giving some people a feeling of superiority because they have tons of a yellow rock, wasting away in their safe*

So true... It's probably impossible to detach power from currency but it's worth a shot.

I believe that an indirect result of trading with currency is hoarding.  And only when we've made a currency that can't be hoarded and that forces you to have to spend it, will economies be unbreakable.

Hoarding to persue that leveraged power is what must be stopped. I again agree with you but with a twist; we need a currency that can't be 'greeded'(or whatever it is called) but hoarding can be ok. I'm working quite hard at this time in life and hoarding like a madman. I will redeem those IOUs later when i have grey hair. Does that make me evil, ie break the economy?

[FenixRD]

...And what becomes of all that gold? It rots in a vault somewhere.  It's never used, nor circulated.  But rather used as a leverage of power.  *Giving some people a feeling of superiority because they have tons of a yellow rock, wasting away in their safe*

I believe that an indirect result of trading with currency is hoarding.  And only when we've made a currency that can't be hoarded and that forces you to have to spend it, will economies be unbreakable.

I'm going to single this out. You seem smart enough to be idealistic, but (if I may make a broad generalization) you are either [1] not smart enough to realize what you are saying, or [2] you are just still very young, 18 - 22 probably. This is not bad -- but it is dangerous. I thought the same thoughts very few years ago. The issue I've discovered is, upholding a utopia requires that all the people governing it be just as smart and idealistic. This is where most Marxist ideals go bad. They sound wonderful, so why don't they work?

...People screw up. People, or some of them, are not so good. So, most utopian ideals break with just a few knotheads; and when they break, they collapse into a twisted mess completely devoid of any ideals. Think USSR values vs. "true" communism. Capitalism sounds greedy, and it is! But it is openly so. Thus, while broken from the beginning, it's a rickety but functional bridge.

Your economic thoughts are very Keynesian, and I'd recommend you read up on where those ideas have gotten us and what they are now doing to Japan. A currency that is forced (okay, highly encouraged) to be spent, and prevented (okay, highly penalized) being hoarded is exactly what we have right now in our major fiat currencies. Bitcoin is by definition deflationary; deflationary currencies reward thrift and saving (also demonized as hoarding). If you are completely lost as to how you are describing Qualitative Easing and the methods of Bernanke and the Fed as your ideal monetary system, I beg you to read, A LOT. Like, everything you can find. Look at alot of old threads in the general and economics forums here. It's been covered a million times over, much better than I can.

[Arcavum]

...People screw up. People, or some of them, are not so good.

Which is why true capitalism can't exist either.  It's too perfect.  You'll always wind up with monopoly and corporatism when there aren't restrictions on how competition is allowed to thrive.  Take mergers and buyouts for instance,  and how far that's led us astray.  Too big too fail is an understatement.

When greed is publicly encouraged, you also get mass suffering.  So just because people are flawed to a degree, should that be used as an excuse, why we can't imagine greater?

To a degree, all people are a product of their environment.  *That leads into a debate on nature vs nurture* which hopefully can be slightly avoided.  And since we are assaulted constantly, since childhood by messages of materialism and greed, rather then being taught to appreciate each other, and the planet we live on, *that has an impact on young minds*
To an extent, we are what we know.  no baby is born greedy.  *It's a learned behavior*

The fact that some people would sacrifice clean air, and clean water for a bit of green paper, signifies that there is something deficient in our societal wisdom.

Before we can begin to change the world, we have to change those aspects of ourselves.

I think that showing actual truth about what's happening in the world to everyone, and having people learn about other cultures and ways of life could greatly decrease the ignorance and materialism latent in our society.

Perhaps that's why television doesn't usually show what's actually happening.

I'm not a Marxist.  You assumed I was.  

I've actually never read Marx.  I've been saying things like this my entire life, and people assume I read Marx.
I'd like to think that my views are far more radical then anything Marx could cook up.
...But I'm not interested in having such a discussion right now.

[FenixRD]

...People screw up. People, or some of them, are not so good.

Which is why true capitalism can't exist either.  It's too perfect.  You'll always wind up with monopoly and corporatism when there aren't restrictions on how competition is allowed to thrive.  Take mergers and buyouts for instance,  and how far that's led us astray.  Too big too fail is an understatement.

When greed is publicly encouraged, you also get mass suffering.  So just because people are flawed to a degree, should that be used as an excuse, why we can't imagine greater?

To a degree, all people are a product of their environment.  *That leads into a debate on nature vs nurture* which hopefully can be slightly avoided.  And since we are assaulted constantly, since childhood by messages of materialism and greed, rather then being taught to appreciate each other, and the planet we live on, *that has an impact on young minds*
To an extent, we are what we know.  no baby is born greedy.  *It's a learned behavior*

The fact that some people would sacrifice clean air, and clean water for a bit of green paper, signifies that there is something deficient in our societal wisdom.

Before we can begin to change the world, we have to change those aspects of ourselves.

I think that showing actual truth about what's happening in the world to everyone, and having people learn about other cultures and ways of life could greatly decrease the ignorance and materialism latent in our society.

Perhaps that's why television doesn't usually show what's actually happening.

I'm not a Marxist.  You assumed I was.  

I've actually never read Marx.  I've been saying things like this my entire life, and people assume I read Marx.
I'd like to think that my views are far more radical then anything Marx could cook up.
...But I'm not interested in having such a discussion right now.

Not getting your ideas from Marx does not mean your ideas are not Marxist! Marx's true ideas are more radical than anything ever implemented. And that's always the thing... how to implement something beautiful without people screwing it up? (That is one way of thinking about Bitcoin and money, btw. An experiment at an incorruptible currency.) I'm not saying don't dream it. Just be careful about how many chess moves you take into account before you do anything. Our recent economic meddlings have been maybe one or two moves in thought.

To be a pain, I will say that babies are absolutely born greedy. This is seldom-argued psychology here. Until the baby gains a sense of "self" and then further makes the monumental leap to projecting that onto the other characters in its world -- "omg, they too are sentient, feeling things just like me, the same as me!" -- there is only greed and self. Some adults never make this leap fully. They are aware of the notion, that it is empirically true that they are not the center of the universe, but they never act like it, because they never genuinely feel it and believe it.

[Arcavum]

I think that that is again, debatable.  Nature vs Nurture.

I think that it's unwise to point to solely either one.
If people are indeed born with their own individual personalities, then it's possible that a few corrupted souls could come into existence.  However it still depends on the nature of the environment you stuff them in.

For instance, if a child isn't humored growing up, but treated like a person.  Educated properly rather then shoved in front of a TV.  There is a great deal to be hopeful about.

Children actually have an incredible learning capacity at the earliest years.  There's even been reading programs sold, that target children of two years or younger...

If a child begins reading at the age of two, I don't see how they could be unaware of their place in the world.  It really depends on how much a child's mind is nurtured.

A child without a thought, will act thoughtlessly.

[FenixRD]

I think that that is again, debatable.  Nature vs Nurture.

I think that it's unwise to point to solely either one.
If people are indeed born with their own individual personalities, then it's possible that a few corrupted souls could come into existence.  However it still depends on the nature of the environment you stuff them in.

For instance, if a child isn't humored growing up, but treated like a person.  Educated properly rather then shoved in front of a TV.  There is a great deal to be hopeful about.

Children actually have an incredible learning capacity at the earliest years.  There's even been reading programs sold, that target children of two years or younger...

If a child begins reading at the age of two, I don't see how they could be unaware of their place in the world.  It really depends on how much a child's mind is nurtured.

A child without a thought, will act thoughtlessly.

Ehh... It would be very easy to "prove" scientifically that babies display behavior we label as greedy, and zero behavior that is not just deterministic random noise that would qualify as selfless. I think your real question is, is it greed before they have the chance to know any better? And then we would indeed get into a debate about whether *anyone* who hasn't realized it has had the right stimuli to teach them. (Are we a bag of chemistry, or something more? If the first, then nothing is really our choice no matter how much it may feel like it is.)

[dodegkr]

btw why are so many people here posting a bitcoin address in their sig   

To make it easier to be traced later on :-)

[Arcavum]

is it greed before they have the chance to know any better?

I suppose that was what I was getting at.

I recently learned that there was a study done at Cambridge university, where several neuro-scientists successfully *according to their research* proved that human and non-human animals have a consciousness.

I suppose that would fit into the *something more* category.  Because if we are just a bag of bio-degradable chemicals, then it would call into question, just how we know that we exist.  Or rather, where does our sense of self come from?

We are influenced by our chemistry, true.  But are we our chemistry, or are we the drivers of a biological machine?
Mystics over the years have referred to us as spiritual beings.

...And quantum physics/ metaphysics references various states of ourselves co-existing simultaneously on different frequencies.  Should that be the case, then is spirit really just energy condensed into a slow vibration? Or are we simply much more then we can ever comprehend?

I do know that we as a species have empathy. *It's not an original trait, since it's been proven that many animal species have it too*

So it raises a question, that if a person we consider greedy, *or even psychotic* were shown 48 hours worth of footage of other people around the world living, and the problems they deal with.
*How would that person be affected?* Would they change?

[xgf666]

I don't get how you can be interested in bitcoin and at the same time spit on capitalism system ! Bitcoin is a curency. mine it, trade it, invest it like all curency. Why would we be interested in a hippy currency to buy sun smiles and cloud ?

[chrisclayton]

Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency.

I agree. If the only thing you can do with it is cashout to cash, then it's not really a currency. I'm judging it based on how many business' adapt it, instead of its value.

[Arcavum]

I don't get how you can be interested in bitcoin and at the same time spit on capitalism system ! Bitcoin is a curency. mine it, trade it, invest it like all curency. Why would we be interested in a hippy currency to buy sun smiles and cloud ?

Are you implying that only capitalism can have currency?

...And everyone has to eat.  The world leaves us with very little choice in the matter.

[yvv]

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot.

Me too.

Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble.

It would be easy to evaluate bitcoins using some commonly used world wide commodity, like electricity, but how would you distribute them in this case? Pay miners electric bill in exchange for bitcoins?

[BitcoinAttorney]

Money is a medium for determining value. Bitcoins are money to the extent that people are willing to trade x for bitcoins. What no one knows at this point is how to accurately determine the value of a bitcoin. Some have purchased sportscars with bitcoins, but the transaction was probably based on the current exchange rate of bitcoins to USD. Many people think that they will get rich quick by buying an ASIC and mining enough bitcoins to buy a Porsche. But the value of a Porsche is widely assessed in terms of USD, Euros, or other currencies.

When the floodgates open and all the new ASICs are cranking out bitcoins many of the newcomers will be quickly turnaround and sell. That sell-off will, of course, be the bursting of the current bubble. The question at that point will be where is the next advancement in mining technology. If it is not on the horizon, institutional investors may be more likely to bring in some big bucks at low prices. This will act to stabilize the bitcoin market. In turn, that will help bitcoin-based companies to more accurately price their products. Only when bitcoins are worth something other than a quick profit will the currency be established. Until then, it is a questionable scheme.

[FenixRD]

is it greed before they have the chance to know any better?

I suppose that was what I was getting at.
…

I do know that we as a species have empathy. *It's not an original trait, since it's been proven that many animal species have it too*

So it raises a question, that if a person we consider greedy, *or even psychotic* were shown 48 hours worth of footage of other people around the world living, and the problems they deal with.
*How would that person be affected?* Would they change?

My observation and knowledge of neurological processes says, primarily, they will not change. Unless they've been literally in a coma their entire lives, they've experienced enough data points to reach that epiphany, but their chemistry prevents it. Fix the chemistry, hormone and neurotransmitter imbalances, etc, and you fix the problem.

An example is hormonal modification of child rapists. (Which it seems, works on a lot more than rapists.) Administration of dosages in the range of 1.0 mg/kg/day of clomifene agonizes receptors designed for E2 feedback on a part of the hypothalamus, mimicking the effects of high estradiol without the other biological side effects of in-vivo E2 administration, and induces intense feelings of empathy and emotional sensitivity. Think Bob from Fight Club, but without the "bitch tits".

I say we are chemicals, or at least so predominantly chemicals that for most things any spirituality can't move the needle.

[FenixRD]

Money is a medium for determining value. Bitcoins are money to the extent that people are willing to trade x for bitcoins. What no one knows at this point is how to accurately determine the value of a bitcoin. Some have purchased sportscars with bitcoins, but the transaction was probably based on the current exchange rate of bitcoins to USD. Many people think that they will get rich quick by buying an ASIC and mining enough bitcoins to buy a Porsche. But the value of a Porsche is widely assessed in terms of USD, Euros, or other currencies.

When the floodgates open and all the new ASICs are cranking out bitcoins many of the newcomers will be quickly turnaround and sell. That sell-off will, of course, be the bursting of the current bubble. The question at that point will be where is the next advancement in mining technology. If it is not on the horizon, institutional investors may be more likely to bring in some big bucks at low prices. This will act to stabilize the bitcoin market. In turn, that will help bitcoin-based companies to more accurately price their products. Only when bitcoins are worth something other than a quick profit will the currency be established. Until then, it is a questionable scheme.

ASICs, quantum compute, doesn't matter. Same as when GPGPU compute arrived. The difficulty adapts at the next checkpoint, which if you assume ASICs add an order of magnitude to the hashing, will occur in about a day and a half. So 2160 BTC enter the market in a day instead of a week or so. There are approaching 11 million BTC in circulation. Amazing how many on this forum have never even read the original white paper, which is only a few pages long actually.

[coollio]

well, someone traded for a pizza, and I'm sure they were thinking in the back of their heads "that pizza is worth $15"

can't help but thing of fiat money

it will take years before people think "that's worth XXX bitcoins"

[Geddi]

I don't get how you can be interested in bitcoin and at the same time spit on capitalism system ! Bitcoin is a curency. mine it, trade it, invest it like all curency. Why would we be interested in a hippy currency to buy sun smiles and cloud ?

Trading a smile (and if you believe in it, trading sun and clouds is good enough for me) tastes like some preferred unit of trade growing into 'gestalt'. Talking about rallies on exchanges, adoring scam like projects, having a waiting list for gox, living it up hoping to get rich, it all tastes like some boys sneaking in trough the fire exit of a cinema. The owner(s) probably know this and most certainly know how to play the game.

[Idioteque]

And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

That sentence stuck with me. Nice read.