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Geddi
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April 08, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
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Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi
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April 08, 2013, 11:10:16 AM
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Don't worry. Stay in it for the long haul, and you won't be disappointed. The currency will fluctuate madly because it's a new concept, and if you want fast money, become a drug dealer or a politician. In the long run, this is the future of economy.
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April 08, 2013, 11:20:31 AM
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If bitcoin becomes too big, activists such as ourselves will simply move on to a different virtual currency.
New ones are being made all the time.

The best way currently, to fight the greed economy,  *which technically isn't an economy"  is to create a separate smaller  trade cycle that doesn't rely on it.

How do you think social security passed in the first place?  You think FDR did it from the goodness of his heart?

During the great depression, starved for money, people returned to a barter economy, trading goods directly.  That's what caused the New Deal. Rich people panicked.

What rich people fear more then anything, is that we won't need them anymore.

That's why they need to keep us scared. *and dependent*

If bitcoin becomes corrupted, then there will be an alternative.  The bitcoin network is open source, and that makes it impossible to stifle.  And perhaps the community will become wiser over time.

*Its a hope*

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April 08, 2013, 11:23:06 AM
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why do you say such bad things about bitcoin?

just be a believer, it's all we ask
FenixRD
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April 08, 2013, 11:25:11 AM
 #5

Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi

Any evil bankers will do the same they do with the stock market. Shake the branches, collect the spoils that fall. Repeated pump-and-dump. This necessitates they rebuy, and why wouldn't they? It's free money from the skittish investors who can't stomach the market movements. It's a far trip to the days that this threatens anything so severely that it gathers attention from any uberbankers who try to crash it entirely. I'd expect something more akin to the 1933 Gold Confiscation Act...

Unless you are a Keynesian at heart, watching the price rise, regardless of why, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins. Back around 4 years ago I'd mined several hundred for shits and giggles. No idea where they are. Spent an hour or so searching old externals for any bitcoin stuff but no luck. Am I concerned? Only that I can't get that hour of my life back. Wink

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

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April 08, 2013, 11:32:47 AM
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Read this topic https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169410.0 (to which i can't reply):

Being a huge fan of open source, non-government bitcoin-like intiatives, this whole 'bubble' stuff worries me a lot. People are getting rich quick (at least they think they are), and the whole community applaudes if evil bankers get into bitcoin causing a big rise in the so-called 'price' for a single bitcoin. Everybody speculates as if there's no yesterday and even projects that have scam written all over it (sorry BFL) are praised in a Stockholm syndrom like manner. And in the end its all about money, fiat money to be precise. We seem to love the most that what we fight against...

Isn't it time we all wake up and take a step back in time to the point where someone traded a pizza for a shitload of coins? Wouldn't it be so much better if noone cared what a bitcoin is worth in fiat currency? F*ck exchanges f*ck this bubble. Make bitcoin what it was; a currency. Someone traded a pizza for it without fiat being mentioned. If enough people adopt the philosophy -and NOT the hyip properties- of bitcoin they would just like me accept bitcoins for a trade, for repairing the car or for helping someone carry the groceries. That would be a start of a currency. This is (a start of) something else.

Just my 2 mBTC

geddi

Any evil bankers will do the same they do with the stock market. Shake the branches, collect the spoils that fall. Repeated pump-and-dump. This necessitates they rebuy, and why wouldn't they? It's free money from the skittish investors who can't stomach the market movements. It's a far trip to the days that this threatens anything so severely that it gathers attention from any uberbankers who try to crash it entirely. I'd expect something more akin to the 1933 Gold Confiscation Act...

Unless you are a Keynesian at heart, watching the price rise, regardless of why, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins. Back around 4 years ago I'd mined several hundred for shits and giggles. No idea where they are. Spent an hour or so searching old externals for any bitcoin stuff but no luck. Am I concerned? Only that I can't get that hour of my life back. Wink

What you just stated is an assumption though.

It's not your fault, most people fail to understand the discrepancies in price.

In the price of a pizza, many variables are ignored.  Such as the cost of raising cattle, pigs.  The labor required to grow tomatoes...etc;

If market value actually reflected the true cost of manufacturing, most pizzas/hamburgers would cost in the realm of 200 dollars. 

So, it isn't fair market value that is determining anything.  It's subsidies.  Most prices are completely made up.  In that regard, the free market can't ever be, because the government plays such an integral role in keeping prices low on most things.

For their to be realistic market value of any kind, most fast food chains would have to file for bankruptcy. And most people would have to grow their own vegetables for sustenance. *Because that would be the most affordable way*

Bitcoin at least seems more reasonable in what people charge for services.  And even if the prices are made up, they seem more logical then what exists in the broader monetary structure.

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Geddi
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April 08, 2013, 11:35:36 AM
 #7

The best way currently, to fight the greed economy,  *which technically isn't an economy"  is to create a separate smaller  trade cycle that doesn't rely on it.

That is exactly my point  Smiley

why do you say such bad things about bitcoin?

just be a believer, it's all we ask
I am a HUGE fan of the bitcoin idea. Don't worry about that. I am just worried that we will grow into some 'mutual dependence' with fiat money. I'm not trying to make bitcoin look bad.

, shouldn't make you feel bad about a pizza bought for fair market value at the time. I've saved coins, spent coins, and lost coins.

And that's exactly the opposite of my point... I don't feel bad about that pizza, I feel good about that pizza. I've ordered a lot of domino's that made me feel a lot worse  Grin
I meant that we should leave the idea that bitcoins are worth money. Bitcoins is not the thing you can buy with money, it's the money you buy something with, they are a method of giving someone a "IOU" in a safe manner without some big (and sometimes corrupt) company managing the IOUs


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April 08, 2013, 11:50:34 AM
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I haven't had enough caffeine yet to reply to Arc's post. I'm going to assume he's got some sort of valid point. I got lost around $200 hamburgers and subsidies. Everything is only worth anything because we agree it is. Basket of berries, brick of gold, a dozen Satoshis, or a cold pizza. Smiley

I will state that my economic view of Bitcoin is that it will function 50% along the behavioral rules of a commodity; 20% as a currency due to flexibility and transport-ability (but not more, because it is deflationary and therefore encourages thrift), and 30% who-knows, because of brand new things never affecting a tradeable media before, at this scale. Social media and the network effect, etc, make this a hard beast to really predict.

tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC Smiley

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

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April 08, 2013, 11:58:58 AM
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And that's exactly the opposite of my point... I don't feel bad about that pizza. I've ordered a lot of domino's that made me feel a lot worse   I meant that we should leave the idea that bitcoins are worth money. Bitcoins are money, they are a method of giving someone a "IOU" in a safe manner without some big (and sometimes corrupt) company managing the IOUs

Sadly, most currencies are traded and bought and sold...*within their particular countries*

Since Bitcoin doesn't have a country and the internet is so vast,  it makes it seem like a commodity.
Though, I understand your point.  And I'd rather that currency wasn't speculated on.
It serves no logical purpose.

Quote
I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC

What is money? It's all made up, man.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

The difference with Bitcoin is that Bitcoin doesn't pretend to be valuable.  Bitcoin doesn't even pretend to truly exist. *Hence the name, Virtual currency*  Gold is a real fop. *It's not good for anything* but people assign a stupid value to it. 
That makes Bitcoin more realistic in my opinion.  At least Bitcoin knows that it's fake. 

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Geddi
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April 08, 2013, 12:00:30 PM
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tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC Smiley

I must agree with your 'the way the most people think of money'. But to me (and not only me), gold is as much money as USD, JPY, Monopoly Buck, or that eternal blowjob last weekend.  Roll Eyes Just an IOU.

My dreams and hopes are that with that spirit it is (hopefully) very hard to get 'greedy rich'. After all, in a strict IOU society a very rich person must have done very much work to earn that. If not, fraud has to be assumed present.
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April 08, 2013, 12:04:40 PM
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Oh and FenixRD.  You probably did miss my point.

According to classical economics, a price is determined by the amount of labor that goes into creating a product.  Correct?
So I was simply pointing out the flaws in that argument, as nothing that has a price, under current monetary rules, actually reflects the labor that goes into it.

Most price is dependent on perception.  The perception of value based on brand-status...etc;

...But many critical facets of production are ignored.  And the price of production is often externalized onto the tax payer or the environment, rather then being reflected in the actual price of what we buy.

The concept of money doesn't exist in the physical world, at the end of the day. It's abstract and as such, determined by the minds of whomever is throwing around the idea.

If people were more realistic in their view of the world, no inanimate object would be taken so seriously.

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April 08, 2013, 12:12:32 PM
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What is money? It's all made up, man.  Wake up and smell the coffee.



Lol... you can stop trying to play teacher now. No idea what led you to believe I ever thought anything other than what you insist: It's all fake, and only real if we make it so.

We may both be "Jr. Members" but I've been here anon since before most of our current hero members were even registered.

inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto Wink

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

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April 08, 2013, 12:17:32 PM
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I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

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inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.


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April 08, 2013, 12:19:11 PM
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I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

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inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.


Loled

Not in this world we're not

Tho it does sound beautiful doesn't it
Geddi
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April 08, 2013, 12:19:44 PM
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...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.

 Wink

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April 08, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
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tl;dr, I mostly disagree with the notion that Bitcoin is MONEY, at least the way most people think of money. Unless you agree that gold is money, and USD and JPY and Monopoly Bucks are far more imaginary than BTC Smiley

I must agree with your 'the way the most people think of money'. But to me (and not only me), gold is as much money as USD, JPY, Monopoly Buck, or that eternal blowjob last weekend.  Roll Eyes Just an IOU.

My dreams and hopes are that with that spirit it is (hopefully) very hard to get 'greedy rich'. After all, in a strict IOU society a very rich person must have done very much work to earn that. If not, fraud has to be assumed present.


For most people, the preferred unit of trade becomes money, because it is easily trade-able, and many other things we call "moneyness" which is being hotly discussed right now. Like heads of cattle, or salt back in the day (worth his weight in salt!). Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

Objectively, BTC possess all the qualities of gold, without the known and accepted weaknesses (try getting your brainwallet confiscated at a border crossing, as just happened with a carfull of gold, among other things). Will the people accept it long-term? Will a critical weakness arise? Hmm...

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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April 08, 2013, 12:25:56 PM
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Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

...Which in layman's terms means "Ooooooooooo shiny"

I honestly don't see how some people can dispute evolution when they're a walking contradiction.

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Geddi
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April 08, 2013, 12:27:54 PM
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For most people, the preferred unit of trade becomes money, because it is easily trade-able, and many other things we call "moneyness" which is being hotly discussed right now. Like heads of cattle, or salt back in the day (worth his weight in salt!). Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

Indeed. But sadly, our preferred unit has been hijacked and filled with so called 'rules' which enable the greedy few to get even more greedy. Gold and salt are just as useful as bitcoins for escaping this economic escapade  Tongue But it's World 2.0 so why not try bitcoin!


Will the people accept it long-term?
I most certainly hope so!

Will a critical weakness arise? Hmm...

For critical weaknesses, it is an open source and adaptable protocol so i'm sure it's able to conquer a lot of bumps in the road with relative ease. It's just preferring a wrong 'fork of the blockchain' right now to my opinion.
 
FenixRD
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April 08, 2013, 12:29:24 PM
 #19

I'm not trying to play teacher.  I'm just a sucker for a good argument.

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inb4 I am Satoshi Nakamoto

Not entirely sure what to make of that, though.

Is that a boast? or truth?



...But whatever, I'm not going to judge.  You are who you are, and we are all one consciousness anyways.



Very Zen. Nah, I'm not Satoshi. He'd never admit it anyway. I was making a joke at myself for playing the "I've been here since the beginning" card. One thing's certain... when dealing with economics, there are no end of good arguments to be had. It's complex.

disclosure, my field is applied maths, I studied mostly game theory and related subjects. Fitting human behavior to the models is the sticky bit. Smiley

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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April 08, 2013, 12:38:24 PM
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Gold was it for a while because it possessed most of the desirable qualities of moneyness.

...Which in layman's terms means "Ooooooooooo shiny"

I honestly don't see how some people can dispute evolution when they're a walking contradiction.

Hmm. Well, if we're going to be serious for a moment: At first there were surely plenty of people who traded gold for whatever (labor, salt, ??) because they wanted the shiny. But it only became accepted and preferred as money for properties like being hard to counterfeit, relatively plentiful, and identical worth between traders (ie, an ounce is an ounce whether from a pretty girl or a shabby, sick hobo... not the same for the aforementioned blowjobs, or more interestingly, for brand-new cloth, foodstuffs, etc.)

Not many things really meet these criteria. Other elements, but gold is nicely in the middle of availability cross-continents, soft enough to subdivide, "easy" to verify. Platinum falls short without more recent tech, as does diamonds and other shinies. Really, you only have elements to choose from, and maybe crystalline forms of them, to consider if you are creating a monetary standard even a few hundred years ago.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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