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Author Topic: Betking.io refusing to answer key questions about ICO - owner bans me instead.  (Read 2343 times)
chazley
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December 04, 2016, 12:50:30 PM
Merited by tk808 (3)
 #1

Dean from Betking is refusing to answer my questions in regards to his ICO that is currently being discussed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1697106

Dean typed this:
btw just a heads up, all chazleys posts will be deleted, that includes quotes of him. If you have a specific question he asked that hasn't been answered, even though they all have, ask yourself without quote

Why Dean does not like me, I'm not sure. I was simply trying to get answers for potential investors. He evidently did not like having to answer detailed questions, but was more than happy to accept 1.1 million dollars if people were willing to give it to him.

If you read through the details of this ICO, it is quite evident that Dean has many unanswered questions in regards to details of the ICO that investors deserve to know. I decided to post in that original thread some questions that potential investors such as myself might have, and also pointed out some weak spots in his ICO. A few hours after I posted that, Dean deleted the post. Here was the post:

A very interesting ICO, however the valuation you are putting on the website is ludicrous. You are essentially saying the company is worth the amount of profit earned lifetime, ~7000 bitcoin, which is a bit insane. Dean has been talking about adding sports betting and a casino for a couple years now, and each time they've popped up, they've gotten extremely low traffic and/or they did not function properly. Would this change with better software and better marketing? Yes. However, this also means we have to put our trust as investors into a pie in the sky promise that you have contacts in the industry who can drive the company to another level and finally get a foothold in the bitcoin gambling industry. But I have seen no proof, despite past promises, that this is going to happen. We need more than 'I know a lot of contacts'. We need a portfolio, a well thought out business plan, and more info on these supposed experts you know so we can get a more accurate picture for how you are going to turn investor's money into a casino and marketing machine that actually has a chance at significant market share outside of the Dice market.

You need to lay out exactly what this 2000 bitcoin is going towards.

I think an important question is, why would any contacts or software developer you know want to help build you a casino platform that's worth a damn if you they aren't going to have any equity in the business? Why wouldn't they just build it on their own?

Imagine you walked into Shark Tank and you told Mark Cuban 'I want 1.5 million dollars (2000 btc) for you to invest in 30% of my company. I've shown success in this other market, but this new market I've never been in and I don't know yet exactly what we're going to do, but I know a lot of people in the industry, trust me'. You'd be laughed off the show.

It is also important to note that 1 bitcoin earned 2 years ago is not equal to 1 bitcoin earned today. Back then, the price was about $250, and now its at $750. Even 6 months ago, the price of bitcoin was about 60% of what it is now. A huge chunk of the profit came from those time periods. Bitcoin is at, basically, an all time high. I get the thought process from your perspective, although I think it is misguided. You've tried to sell Betking at least 2 other points in the past year that I can remember, but the problem is almost all of Betking's value stems from the bitcoin community's trust in Dean. The brand and software has very little value in my opinion - that's why no one ever offers anything close to what Dean feels Betking is worth (apparently 7000 btc).

All of this is potentially moot however, because at the end of the day a company is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I seriously doubt this ICO is going to work, considering from what I read in Dean's previous attempt to sell Betking less than a month ago the top bid was 1500 bitcoin for 100% of the company, unless someone offered more and he did not reveal it publicly. How he gets the idea that his top offer was 1500 bitcoin for 100% of the company and in turn starts this ICO 2 weeks later trying to sell 30% for an even larger bitcoin amount than what the top investor offered him for 100% doesn't really make much sense.

Dean's problem in this situation is the only truly valuable commodity in his business is himself as someone who is trusted. That is worth a lot of money. However, all these attempts to sell the whole, or parts, of the company are going to come up short because Dean obviously disagrees with my assessment of the value of his website/software. Dean should eventually just take Betking private and get all the profits himself. It would provide a steady, healthy income for years. Build a new casino/sports betting platform without the investors. Like you said, you are taking in 50% of the profits for a site you believe is worth 5 million dollars and has basically zero operating cost.

A massive problem as well is investors are likely never going to get their investment back+profit, because the only scenario where they do is if Dean decides to sell the company in the future. The problem with that is, Dean is the value of this company. If he doesn't come in the package, no one is paying 7000 bitcoin for this site at the current USD/btc value. Sure, you could sell your shares to other interested buyers, but that will be the only market there is for your shares. You will be relying on dividends to make you money, and this does not have a great outlook if you look at the past few months of wagering on Betking.

The past week, there has been ~670 btc wagered on Betking. That is an expected profit of 6.7 btc/week, or $5,000 per week. $260,000 a year. Or, 19 years to make the $5 million dollars the Dean values his website at.

Also important to look at is how far above EV Betking has been running for Dice. Selling for the actual profit amount is actually quite disingenuous, because Betking could just as easily be at 0 profit as it is at 7000 btc profit. The EV number is the only one that truly matters.

At a much more reasonable ICO price, I would've been very intrigued by investing in Betking/Dean. However, the price is absolutely bonkers.


Regardless, best of luck.

____________________________________

After Dean deleted this post, there was a minor uproar in the thread accusing Dean of using dirty tactics trying to silence some legitimate questions in the form of deleting posts that disagreed with him. Dean decided he would reply to me since he got caught, and he mostly posted vague responses and avoided the most pressing questions. That reply is #127 in his ICO thread.  

Next, we had one final back-and-forth:

Dean:
I'm wondering if people are a little scared to invest due to the no cap and that if we got too much then your share is low.

Maybe we should have the option that if we raise 4000 you can get a refund, 1st come first server, until funds drop to 3000?


Chazley:
The reason people are scared to invest is because you have laid out zero vision on how this is going to work, and because you've put an insanely high valuation on your website.

You may think this is personal Dean but it's really not. I would love to invest in Betking and you if I had the chance, and I did that for a long time as an investor in the site's bankroll.

However, this seems like it was an extremely rushed decision to offer an ICO. Details are incredibly important in these situations and you've laid out none of them. I think a small group of the site's bankroll investors convinced you this was a good idea, and those members bought in quickly. However, if you want to raise 2000 bitcoin instead of 183 for 30% of your company, you need to fully answer the questions raised in my previous post and many others in this thread.


Dean:
I laid out the plan in the original post. It's all stuff that has been discussed with the previous bankroll investors for a month or so.
The only part of it that doesn't have a well laid out part is the marketing plan.
That's just something that needs more time and will depend on funds raised and who we work with.
The plan would obviously be totally different if we raised 4000 Bitcoin instead of 2000.

The product and software improvements aren't hard to understand and are obviously things that just generate more income for the site.

I'm still in talks with previous investors via email and in the slack channel who could bring the amount raised up to 1000 before end of first week.
There's still 4000 Bitcoin sitting in player funds on BetKing. To me that would seem that some people just need more time to make the decision or they would have withdrew by now.


Chazley:
Want to evaluate each of your points one by one, because it is important for investors.

     "I laid out the plan in the original post"

Ok, let's assume you did even though logic says you missed out some vitally important details. I have some followup questions. What exactly is the plan for the 2000 btc? Is this just you cashing in equity in your site while furthering your edge even more, or do you have a step by step plan on what you are going to do with that 1.1 million dollars that will improve the site?

Who exactly are these so-called contacts? Who's money are you paying them with? How much? Why would they develop a casino that has a potential future as the biggest bitcoin casino without having any equity in it? Are you giving them equity?

     "It's all stuff that has been discussed with the previous bankroll investors for a month or so."

Why are only previous investors privy to these details? If you only want them to have the details, why come public with this sale? If you are so confident these bankroll investors are going to invest 1000 btc, why not just sell 15% and only sell to them?

     "The only part of it that doesn't have a well laid out part is the marketing plan."

That is a very worrying sentence if you believe that is honestly true.

     "That's just something that needs more time and will depend on funds raised and who we work with."

This sentence is important. You admit you need more time. I agree. However, when you bring an ICO public and are asking for 1.1 million dollars, you need to have 95% of it figured out and a great plan to follow moving forward. I'd say you have about 10% of it figured out, and if you don't, you are holding back a lot of important info that you shouldn't be if you are bringing this ICO public.

     "The plan would obviously be totally different if we raised 4000 Bitcoin instead of 2000."

Why not lay out a plan for both? It may actually increase incentive to invest. I will say though, expecting more than 2000 bitcoin to be raised for this is incredibly ambitious and, in my mind, completely unrealistic. I wouldn't worry about contingency plans and I would focus on what the 2000 btc plan is and release it publicly.

     "The product and software improvements aren't hard to understand and are obviously things that just generate more income for the site."

I'd disagree that the problem is that they're hard to understand, and would instead say there is no proof there actually are improvements coming besides a blanket promise from you that it is coming... eventually. For any serious investor, that's not enough.

     "There's still 4000 Bitcoin sitting in player funds on BetKing. To me that would seem that some people just need more time to make the decision or they would have withdrew by now."

That's a huge stretch. Maybe, just like me as a fellow investor, they just haven't checked the site yet to realize you divested their money and went to private funding? I personally didn't receive any communication from you that you were closing down, although it's no big deal.

------------------

I want to start this thread so I can speak freely without Dean deleting posts from not just me, but other people who raise legitimate concerns about how this is going to work. I hope that transparency will help everyone.


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December 04, 2016, 01:04:11 PM
 #2

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.

You were not invited to the investor slack channel that I mentioned, that had all BetKing bankroll investors with > 10 Bitcoin invested invited, for these very reasons.

The facts and plan is laid out in the OP and has been discussed in BetKing chat and slack channel as well as skype for a while now.
I don't see any of your questions that were unanswered. Just your usual personal attacks.
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December 04, 2016, 01:05:52 PM
 #3

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.

You were not invited to the investor slack channel that I mentioned, that had all BetKing bankroll investors with > 10 Bitcoin invested invited, for these very reasons.

The facts and plan is laid out in the OP and has been discussed in BetKing chat and slack channel as well as skype for a while now.
I don't see any of your questions that were unanswered. Just your usual personal attacks.

How much you have raised so far?

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December 04, 2016, 01:11:17 PM
 #4

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.

You were not invited to the investor slack channel that I mentioned, that had all BetKing bankroll investors with > 10 Bitcoin invested invited, for these very reasons.

The facts and plan is laid out in the OP and has been discussed in BetKing chat and slack channel as well as skype for a while now.
I don't see any of your questions that were unanswered. Just your usual personal attacks.

Any reasonable person can see nothing I said was a personal attack. It is all laid out in the above, people can make that determination on their own. Maybe you are just overly sensitive.

Also, to be fair... you tried to delete my post but got called out on it for being shady. At that point when you got caught you thought it was a good idea to respond because everyone had already seen it.

I don't think it has anything to do with me "attacking" you. I think you just refuse to answer the tough questions because you don't have answers. Instead of admitting that, you try to censor questions and get angry. That is a very troubling sign.
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December 04, 2016, 01:18:32 PM
 #5

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.

You were not invited to the investor slack channel that I mentioned, that had all BetKing bankroll investors with > 10 Bitcoin invested invited, for these very reasons.

The facts and plan is laid out in the OP and has been discussed in BetKing chat and slack channel as well as skype for a while now.
I don't see any of your questions that were unanswered. Just your usual personal attacks.

How much you have raised so far?

ICO so far got 194.45670739 BTC.  there 30,000,000 to be distributed and so 70M remains to be owned by Dean. I don't know how this could work though but I guess it would be fair to have him the 70%. But iff he intends it to be on exchange like he said,  i doubt it will be fair  Grin


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December 04, 2016, 01:28:55 PM
 #6

Dean is never going to raise 2000 btc for 30% - it's a ridiculous valuation.
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December 04, 2016, 01:34:56 PM
 #7

Dean is never going to raise 2000 btc for 30% - it's a ridiculous valuation.

That could be true.

By the way he also deleted my post. I was just agreeing about the need to advertise like doing signature campaign for the users to learn about his ICO and along it i asked who holds the funds as escrow. Not sure how offending that is but yes Dean deleted my post.

The ICO may Turn SCAM. Be careful



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December 04, 2016, 01:36:50 PM
 #8

Dean is never going to raise 2000 btc for 30% - it's a ridiculous valuation.

That could be true.

By the way he also deleted my post. I was just agreeing about the need to advertise for the users to learn about his ICO and along it i asked who holds the funds as escrow. Not sure how offending that is but yes Dean deleted my post.



You added 0 context to the post and also just asked who would escrow where I have told many times there will be no need for escrow and that posts that ask that will be deleted. Read the thread before commenting in it.

I expected trolls as usual on this forum so any troll posts that are not constructive or asking legit questions will be deleted.
Have this thread for all the trolling you want Wink
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December 04, 2016, 01:42:07 PM
 #9

I want to start this thread so I can speak freely without Dean deleting posts from not just me, but other people who raise legitimate concerns about how this is going to work. I hope that transparency will help everyone.
Thank you for starting this thread. I was actually thinking about starting one on my own if you wouldn't have done it. Don't get my wrong: I like the idea of cryptoshares, but I also think this ICO misses out on important details. And it is important to be able to discuss concerns in an open and uncensored forum.

I've asked some questions too in Dean's thread, they didn't get deleted but didn't get an answer either.

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.
I don't know what happened between you and chazley in the past. As an outsider, I just read his post and it seemed like valid questions to me. In chazley's post, I don't see any "jealous personal attacks and accusations". If that happened in the past 2 years, I can imagine it's on your mind. But if outsiders don't see it in the post, deleting it only raises more concerns.

Now back to the subject Cheesy
Say it all works out, and 6 months from now, I buy BetKing ICO tokens on an exchange. Then, a month later, dividend is paid in Bitcoin. How is that ever going to reach me, if my ICO tokens aren't connected to a BetKing account anymore? It's questions like these that make me want to know much more details.

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December 04, 2016, 01:46:32 PM
 #10



Now back to the subject Cheesy
Say it all works out, and 6 months from now, I buy BetKing ICO tokens on an exchange. Then, a month later, dividend is paid in Bitcoin. How is that ever going to reach me, if my ICO tokens aren't connected to a BetKing account anymore? It's questions like these that make me want to know much more details.

Exactly. All those questions are valid.

Mind you Dean, you once tried to sell betking as far as I can remember - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1676311.0 and that leaves people some doubt about the status of this site. I have an account in there to which I lose some BTC as well.


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December 04, 2016, 01:55:16 PM
 #11

Last time I post in this thread but for the so called scam accusations and Chazleys burning questions, do you know how business works?

I would have been perfectly in the right to say the funds won't be used for anything at all except my own pay day.
I am selling 30% of my company where you will receive 30% of the profit.

However I would rather re-invest these in the company to grow it bigger.

If you don't think it's fair or worth it or whatever other reasons you have. Don't invest. I'd rather you didn't Smiley

I won't answer any questions or anything else in this thread so assume if you are asking anything here you won't get a reply from me.
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December 04, 2016, 09:31:07 PM
 #12

Last time I post in this thread but for the so called scam accusations and Chazleys burning questions, do you know how business works?

I would have been perfectly in the right to say the funds won't be used for anything at all except my own pay day.
I am selling 30% of my company where you will receive 30% of the profit.

However I would rather re-invest these in the company to grow it bigger.

If you don't think it's fair or worth it or whatever other reasons you have. Don't invest. I'd rather you didn't Smiley

I won't answer any questions or anything else in this thread so assume if you are asking anything here you won't get a reply from me.

We dont need you in here. Thanks.
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December 05, 2016, 01:12:45 AM
 #13



Now back to the subject Cheesy
Say it all works out, and 6 months from now, I buy BetKing ICO tokens on an exchange. Then, a month later, dividend is paid in Bitcoin. How is that ever going to reach me, if my ICO tokens aren't connected to a BetKing account anymore? It's questions like these that make me want to know much more details.

Exactly. All those questions are valid.

Mind you Dean, you once tried to sell betking as far as I can remember - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1676311.0 and that leaves people some doubt about the status of this site. I have an account in there to which I lose some BTC as well.

Correct. Dean has been trying to sell his business for at least a year now, this is the third attempt I'm aware of.
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December 05, 2016, 03:29:55 AM
 #14

I want to start this thread so I can speak freely without Dean deleting posts from not just me, but other people who raise legitimate concerns about how this is going to work. I hope that transparency will help everyone.
Thank you for starting this thread. I was actually thinking about starting one on my own if you wouldn't have done it. Don't get my wrong: I like the idea of cryptoshares, but I also think this ICO misses out on important details. And it is important to be able to discuss concerns in an open and uncensored forum.

I've asked some questions too in Dean's thread, they didn't get deleted but didn't get an answer either.

If you were to have posted your questions without the negative and jealous personal attacks and accusations that you have constantly given for 2 years complaining and bashing every decision I have made with BetKing I would have answered you.
I don't know what happened between you and chazley in the past. As an outsider, I just read his post and it seemed like valid questions to me. In chazley's post, I don't see any "jealous personal attacks and accusations". If that happened in the past 2 years, I can imagine it's on your mind. But if outsiders don't see it in the post, deleting it only raises more concerns.

Now back to the subject Cheesy
Say it all works out, and 6 months from now, I buy BetKing ICO tokens on an exchange. Then, a month later, dividend is paid in Bitcoin. How is that ever going to reach me, if my ICO tokens aren't connected to a BetKing account anymore? It's questions like these that make me want to know much more details.

Very important questions raised in this post. All investors should be continuing to press the issue until Dean gives some legitimate answers.
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December 05, 2016, 05:43:54 AM
 #15



Now back to the subject Cheesy
Say it all works out, and 6 months from now, I buy BetKing ICO tokens on an exchange. Then, a month later, dividend is paid in Bitcoin. How is that ever going to reach me, if my ICO tokens aren't connected to a BetKing account anymore? It's questions like these that make me want to know much more details.

Exactly. All those questions are valid.

Mind you Dean, you once tried to sell betking as far as I can remember - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1676311.0 and that leaves people some doubt about the status of this site. I have an account in there to which I lose some BTC as well.

Correct. Dean has been trying to sell his business for at least a year now, this is the third attempt I'm aware of.

That was feeling doubt about that, seems the alternative ways. feel curious about that. sitting my eyes on here.

.
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December 05, 2016, 09:36:20 AM
 #16

Dean is never going to raise 2000 btc for 30% - it's a ridiculous valuation.

That could be true.

By the way he also deleted my post. I was just agreeing about the need to advertise for the users to learn about his ICO and along it i asked who holds the funds as escrow. Not sure how offending that is but yes Dean deleted my post.



You added 0 context to the post and also just asked who would escrow where I have told many times there will be no need for escrow and that posts that ask that will be deleted. Read the thread before commenting in it.

I expected trolls as usual on this forum so any troll posts that are not constructive or asking legit questions will be deleted.
Have this thread for all the trolling you want Wink

That's the problem - you think every question is a troll post and not constructive, when in reality it's just people asking common questions that you refuse to answer.
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December 05, 2016, 09:55:46 AM
 #17

Dean is never going to raise 2000 btc for 30% - it's a ridiculous valuation.

That could be true.

By the way he also deleted my post. I was just agreeing about the need to advertise for the users to learn about his ICO and along it i asked who holds the funds as escrow. Not sure how offending that is but yes Dean deleted my post.



You added 0 context to the post and also just asked who would escrow where I have told many times there will be no need for escrow and that posts that ask that will be deleted. Read the thread before commenting in it.

I expected trolls as usual on this forum so any troll posts that are not constructive or asking legit questions will be deleted.
Have this thread for all the trolling you want Wink

That's the problem - you think every question is a troll post and not constructive, when in reality it's just people asking common questions that you refuse to answer.

Thank forcwarning us. Many scammers wanna get rich fast these days.

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December 05, 2016, 02:07:43 PM
 #18

Hey chazley. I really appreciate that you reposted this because I feel this was a core component of the discussion. There were no personal attacks, just facts and an analysis of the numbers and the valuation. From the get-go the valuation was a big red flag for me. Just because the site was lucky enough to be up 7,100 in a couple years of operation does not mean that the site should go for anywhere near that (he thinks it's worth over 6000 BTC). All you're given is the site and its reputation, not like you're given a bankroll as well. How do you think you're going to be making that 6,000 BTC back? Also it's worth pointing out that the ICO is driven by demand so if he gets 4,000 BTC instead of 2,000 (already a valuation of 6,666 BTC) he's still only giving out 30% of his company which pushes the valuation into even more obscene territory. And if it does touch 2,000 I imagine there is going to be some visible overage.

Anyways I find the censorship of your post incredibly distasteful, and I urge people to consider the valuation Dean puts on Betking, as it is with this valuation that the ICO is presented.
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December 06, 2016, 07:25:38 AM
 #19

Hey chazley. I really appreciate that you reposted this because I feel this was a core component of the discussion. There were no personal attacks, just facts and an analysis of the numbers and the valuation. From the get-go the valuation was a big red flag for me. Just because the site was lucky enough to be up 7,100 in a couple years of operation does not mean that the site should go for anywhere near that (he thinks it's worth over 6000 BTC). All you're given is the site and its reputation, not like you're given a bankroll as well. How do you think you're going to be making that 6,000 BTC back? Also it's worth pointing out that the ICO is driven by demand so if he gets 4,000 BTC instead of 2,000 (already a valuation of 6,666 BTC) he's still only giving out 30% of his company which pushes the valuation into even more obscene territory. And if it does touch 2,000 I imagine there is going to be some visible overage.

Anyways I find the censorship of your post incredibly distasteful, and I urge people to consider the valuation Dean puts on Betking, as it is with this valuation that the ICO is presented.

Dean is incredibly sensitive, and thinks any criticism or thought-provoking questions are personal attacks on him. He is essentially a large child.
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December 06, 2016, 07:57:54 AM
 #20

Hey chazley. I really appreciate that you reposted this because I feel this was a core component of the discussion. There were no personal attacks, just facts and an analysis of the numbers and the valuation. From the get-go the valuation was a big red flag for me. Just because the site was lucky enough to be up 7,100 in a couple years of operation does not mean that the site should go for anywhere near that (he thinks it's worth over 6000 BTC). All you're given is the site and its reputation, not like you're given a bankroll as well. How do you think you're going to be making that 6,000 BTC back? Also it's worth pointing out that the ICO is driven by demand so if he gets 4,000 BTC instead of 2,000 (already a valuation of 6,666 BTC) he's still only giving out 30% of his company which pushes the valuation into even more obscene territory. And if it does touch 2,000 I imagine there is going to be some visible overage.

Anyways I find the censorship of your post incredibly distasteful, and I urge people to consider the valuation Dean puts on Betking, as it is with this valuation that the ICO is presented.

Dean is incredibly sensitive, and thinks any criticism or thought-provoking questions are personal attacks on him. He is essentially a large child.

For me it looks more like a frustration from failed attempts of cashing out from his business. He realizes that this ICO is turning into another failed attempt, so the frustration increases.
Most likely he's trying to take advantage of the current ICO heat by using a token for his business, which is rather loosely connected with crypto scene, but creates an opportunity to finally make some bigger cash. He could be succesfull though, if he set up the ICO like all other recent ICOs, ie. a proper coin with an added gambling-related value would work (as it worked for LIR for instance), but instead he's brute forcing his reputation to be the one and the only difference for his "coin".
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