Bitstamp investment opportunity at bnktothefuture? Unimpressive...

[UDC]

So this is a sell off of shares of the bitstamp exchange? This is very odd of them to do. Is this a sign that they are failing just like BitFinex did earlier this year but they have enough sense to get away with some money before they run?

they're only selling 2% of the company.. and their yearly reports are available for anyone to check (not freely but accessible)

[Quickseller]

so it would take 32 years (or 16 assuming 0.2% avg fee) to pay back. Of course it's likely the volume will go up, however BTC price will do the same  Therefor I think it's way better to simply buy BTC.

If you simply buy BTC then for you to profit, the price of BTC needs to increase. However it is possible that BTC will fall by the wayside and some altcoin will reach the level of success that many think BTC will have. If you buy shares in bitstamp (or any other exchange), then that exchange simply needs to allow for trading in that altcoin, and have heavy trading volume in that altcoin for it to be successful.

Bitfinex is not worth $200MM valuation. This is self explanatory.

With Bitfinex's BFX tokens trading at 0.525, the valuation is closer to $100 MM

Bitfinex made over $6 MM in income last year, and $7 MM in income through July of this year.

I would not say that the valuation of Bitfinex is all that outrageous. The high level of debt the company has might be a concern though. 

[AcoinL.L.C]

so it would take 32 years (or 16 assuming 0.2% avg fee) to pay back. Of course it's likely the volume will go up, however BTC price will do the same  Therefor I think it's way better to simply buy BTC.

If you simply buy BTC then for you to profit, the price of BTC needs to increase. However it is possible that BTC will fall by the wayside and some altcoin will reach the level of success that many think BTC will have. If you buy shares in bitstamp (or any other exchange), then that exchange simply needs to allow for trading in that altcoin, and have heavy trading volume in that altcoin for it to be successful.

Bitfinex is not worth $200MM valuation. This is self explanatory.

With Bitfinex's BFX tokens trading at 0.525, the valuation is closer to $100 MM

Bitfinex made over $6 MM in income last year, and $7 MM in income through July of this year.

I would not say that the valuation of Bitfinex is all that outrageous. The high level of debt the company has might be a concern though. 

$6MM income, is that revenue or net profit?

Even assuming its net profit, $6MM on a $200MM valuation (the fact their debt tokens are selling cheaper than face value does not diminish the valuation they have put on it) is beyond obscene (3% yearly growth). They are already a market leader (there will be no quick growth from here on out), still huge risk of failure (regulatory, crippling debt, terrible 5 forces situation etc) on top of a management team that has proven itself to be incompetent. This is a very pricey investment for the amount of risk involved.

They should be looking a valuation closer to $50MM.

[Quickseller]

so it would take 32 years (or 16 assuming 0.2% avg fee) to pay back. Of course it's likely the volume will go up, however BTC price will do the same  Therefor I think it's way better to simply buy BTC.

If you simply buy BTC then for you to profit, the price of BTC needs to increase. However it is possible that BTC will fall by the wayside and some altcoin will reach the level of success that many think BTC will have. If you buy shares in bitstamp (or any other exchange), then that exchange simply needs to allow for trading in that altcoin, and have heavy trading volume in that altcoin for it to be successful.

Bitfinex is not worth $200MM valuation. This is self explanatory.

With Bitfinex's BFX tokens trading at 0.525, the valuation is closer to $100 MM

Bitfinex made over $6 $7 MM in income last year, and $7$6 MM in income through July of this year.

I would not say that the valuation of Bitfinex is all that outrageous. The high level of debt the company has might be a concern though. 

$6MM income, is that revenue or net profit?

Even assuming its net profit, $6MM on a $200MM valuation (the fact their debt tokens are selling cheaper than face value does not diminish the valuation they have put on it) is beyond obscene (3% yearly growth). They are already a market leader (there will be no quick growth from here on out), still huge risk of failure (regulatory, crippling debt, terrible 5 forces situation etc) on top of a management team that has proven itself to be incompetent. This is a very pricey investment for the amount of risk involved.

They should be looking a valuation closer to $50MM.

In 2015, Bitfinex had $9.349 MM in revenue, 2.322 MM in expenses, and net income of $7.027 MM; in 2016 through July, they had $8.017 MM in revenue, $2.000 MM in expenses and a net income of $6.017 MM, which was on track to be roughly $10 MM in income for the year. (It looks like I may have previously gotten the last year and YTD through July figures mixed up).

On a YoY basis, both revenue, and net income have grown by double digits from last year.

If a potential investor wanted to buy equity in Bitfinex, they could purchase BFX tokens at a discount, and convert those BFX tokens into Bitfinex (or the entity that is actually selling shares on Bnktothefuture), giving an effective valuation of closer to $100 MM. If an investor wanted to buy a large amount of shares, does not already own BFX tokens, then their buying of BFX tokens would likely push up their effective valuation because the price of the BFX tokens would likely increase.

Bitfinex could potentially increase their revenue/income by introducing new products, for example, I have heard them talking about offering deliverable options, and new trading pairs that generates high trading volumes.

In regards to your valuation estimate, an appropriate valuation is a conclusion that needs to be made by an investor considering to invest.

[fiscorcle]

so it would take 32 years (or 16 assuming 0.2% avg fee) to pay back. Of course it's likely the volume will go up, however BTC price will do the same  Therefor I think it's way better to simply buy BTC.

If you simply buy BTC then for you to profit, the price of BTC needs to increase. However it is possible that BTC will fall by the wayside and some altcoin will reach the level of success that many think BTC will have. If you buy shares in bitstamp (or any other exchange), then that exchange simply needs to allow for trading in that altcoin, and have heavy trading volume in that altcoin for it to be successful.

Bitfinex is not worth $200MM valuation. This is self explanatory.

With Bitfinex's BFX tokens trading at 0.525, the valuation is closer to $100 MM

Bitfinex made over $6 $7 MM in income last year, and $7$6 MM in income through July of this year.

I would not say that the valuation of Bitfinex is all that outrageous. The high level of debt the company has might be a concern though. 

$6MM income, is that revenue or net profit?

Even assuming its net profit, $6MM on a $200MM valuation (the fact their debt tokens are selling cheaper than face value does not diminish the valuation they have put on it) is beyond obscene (3% yearly growth). They are already a market leader (there will be no quick growth from here on out), still huge risk of failure (regulatory, crippling debt, terrible 5 forces situation etc) on top of a management team that has proven itself to be incompetent. This is a very pricey investment for the amount of risk involved.

They should be looking a valuation closer to $50MM.

In 2015, Bitfinex had $9.349 MM in revenue, 2.322 MM in expenses, and net income of $7.027 MM; in 2016 through July, they had $8.017 MM in revenue, $2.000 MM in expenses and a net income of $6.017 MM, which was on track to be roughly $10 MM in income for the year. (It looks like I may have previously gotten the last year and YTD through July figures mixed up).

On a YoY basis, both revenue, and net income have grown by double digits from last year.

If a potential investor wanted to buy equity in Bitfinex, they could purchase BFX tokens at a discount, and convert those BFX tokens into Bitfinex (or the entity that is actually selling shares on Bnktothefuture), giving an effective valuation of closer to $100 MM. If an investor wanted to buy a large amount of shares, does not already own BFX tokens, then their buying of BFX tokens would likely push up their effective valuation because the price of the BFX tokens would likely increase.

Bitfinex could potentially increase their revenue/income by introducing new products, for example, I have heard them talking about offering deliverable options, and new trading pairs that generates high trading volumes.

In regards to your valuation estimate, an appropriate valuation is a conclusion that needs to be made by an investor considering to invest.

If you take these numbers and do a discounted cash flow on this and assume even just 5% growth per year with 2% growth into perpetuity, with a 15% cost of capital (probably either low or high), one could argue that this 2% stake is worth at best just $1.4mm. 5% growth is probably adventurous at this point without further cryptocurrency expansion, and a 15% WACC is probably a bit low for a company that operates in such a grey area, legally speaking. I'd wager there aren't many banks or financial institutions willing to give BitFinex a loan at market rates.

Of course, that $1.4mm is assuming there isn't any debt or preferred / convertible shares that we don't know about.

That's honestly thing I take most issue with - all of these companies are assuming that just because we invest in bitcoin and we invest online that we don't need to see detailed financials and other information that normal investors would receive without a second thought. Bitstamp should really be putting out a presentation or something to try and entice investors

[European Central Bank]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

[mxhwr]

This calls for moving btc out of bitstamp

[fiscorcle]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

[AcoinL.L.C]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

How is it high reward? Limited upside.

[fiscorcle]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

How is it high reward? Limited upside.

Unless you're really long on BTC - you see it becoming a larger part of the world economy. In that case, you're probably already fairly well invested in BTC and might see this as a good opportunity to get in on early

[AcoinL.L.C]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

How is it high reward? Limited upside.

Unless you're really long on BTC - you see it becoming a larger part of the world economy. In that case, you're probably already fairly well invested in BTC and might see this as a good opportunity to get in on early

If you are really long on BTC you will definitely not put your dollars (or satoshi) this way, you would be best to just hold your BTC. More established firms would decide to get in on the market and Bitfinex etc wouldn't stand a chance due to regulation burden.

[fiscorcle]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

How is it high reward? Limited upside.

Unless you're really long on BTC - you see it becoming a larger part of the world economy. In that case, you're probably already fairly well invested in BTC and might see this as a good opportunity to get in on early

If you are really long on BTC you will definitely not put your dollars (or satoshi) this way, you would be best to just hold your BTC. More established firms would decide to get in on the market and Bitfinex etc wouldn't stand a chance due to regulation burden.

You're forgetting the reason people use BTC in the first place - anonymity. These places are definitely less regulated than the big boys  which makes for much more privacy

[guwera]

when you look NYSE or Dow Jones. All companies are priced as x30 years of profit or 7-10x of annual income.

so it seen logical general investment perspective. but yes a bit low comparing to crypto-asset invesments roi.

[fiscorcle]

when you look NYSE or Dow Jones. All companies are priced as x30 years of profit or 7-10x of annual income.

so it seen logical general investment perspective. but yes a bit low comparing to crypto-asset invesments roi.

Value to earnings ratios are based off of growth - there's a lot more growth to be had in cryptocurrency spaces than in fiat ones, even if the total amount is smaller

[AcoinL.L.C]

a $100 million valuation for a company that's been hacked, is unregulated and its ownership and operation is largely a mystery? you'd get your ass laughed out of any serious investor's office with a proposal like that. and they'd probably boot you in the ass on the way out for wasting their time.

it just goes to show that so many bitcoin businesses still live in a weird little bubble of their own that doesn't have much relation to the real world out there.

let's look at that figure again - $100,000,000.

someone would pay that for an operation run by bunch of guys who lounge around in their underwear in various basements around the world? sure, it makes money. you need a little more than that to gain proper investment. jermaine the crack dealer makes money. that doesn't mean he can list on the stock market.

High risk, high reward man - just like investing in BTC casinos or gambling in them

How is it high reward? Limited upside.

Unless you're really long on BTC - you see it becoming a larger part of the world economy. In that case, you're probably already fairly well invested in BTC and might see this as a good opportunity to get in on early

If you are really long on BTC you will definitely not put your dollars (or satoshi) this way, you would be best to just hold your BTC. More established firms would decide to get in on the market and Bitfinex etc wouldn't stand a chance due to regulation burden.

You're forgetting the reason people use BTC in the first place - anonymity. These places are definitely less regulated than the big boys  which makes for much more privacy

The people that value anonymity are already using Bitcoin. Most people (and by far most of the worlds exchange volume) is not anonymous.

[European Central Bank]

You're forgetting the reason people use BTC in the first place - anonymity. These places are definitely less regulated than the big boys  which makes for much more privacy

the one and only place that might take privacy seriously is btc-e. no one else is gonna give a shit and they'll roll right over if ordered to. the main reason they're less regulated is that it costs less and it gives them a greater chance to steal from you.

[Apocalyptic]

when you look NYSE or Dow Jones. All companies are priced as x30 years of profit or 7-10x of annual income.

so it seen logical general investment perspective. but yes a bit low comparing to crypto-asset invesments roi.

This is nonsense, first you're mentioning an exchange and an index like they're equivalent. What you're referring to is called the P/E ratio and it's surely not around 30 for all companies on major exchanges. It's a metric that is highly dependent on the industry sector and can tremendously vary.

For exemple:

• Goldman Sachs (GS on NYSE) has a P/E ratio around 20
• Tesla has a negative P/E since it is actually losing money, and is yet valued at 30 billion.

That being said, the valuation they're implying with this offer seems indeed a bit high considering their situation and I would love to see their latest financial report. It will be interesting to see how much they will raise given that they're at 33% currently and have only a month left.

[bitcoinisbest]

This investment seems to be really unimpressive as the few calculations done by previous posters actually make it crystal clear that for next 15 years there would be any returns and possibly between that bitstamp may become insolvent or need to be shut down. So you stand to lose out your investment completely.

[Zadicar]

This investment seems to be really unimpressive as the few calculations done by previous posters actually make it crystal clear that for next 15 years there would be any returns and possibly between that bitstamp may become insolvent or need to be shut down. So you stand to lose out your investment completely.

This is definitely the risk and even i have the money to invest on i would rather choose to buy bitcoin itself and will hold for 10-30 years based on the calculations above and for sure i will made good profits with that since bitcoins price is increasing gradually and would even give you a decent percentage on your investment. Investing money on bitstamp is risky and i cant wait for too long for the company to repay me.

[fiscorcle]

This investment seems to be really unimpressive as the few calculations done by previous posters actually make it crystal clear that for next 15 years there would be any returns and possibly between that bitstamp may become insolvent or need to be shut down. So you stand to lose out your investment completely.

This is definitely the risk and even i have the money to invest on i would rather choose to buy bitcoin itself and will hold for 10-30 years based on the calculations above and for sure i will made good profits with that since bitcoins price is increasing gradually and would even give you a decent percentage on your investment. Investing money on bitstamp is risky and i cant wait for too long for the company to repay me.

That's not the point though. BitStamp is tied to the price of bitcoin as well, so you're betting on BTC andp betting onBitStamp. It's two investments for the return of one. Only one of those two investments is a good one, and it's not BitStamp...