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Author Topic: POS for BTC? ;)  (Read 1787 times)
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December 15, 2016, 07:59:26 AM
 #21

PoS is very useless and risky for bitcoin because security reason.
PoS only makes inflation which bitcoin trying to avoid all the time.

This idea is even worse than centralized LN.

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December 16, 2016, 05:59:58 AM
 #22

guys what is BTC have POS? what you think may happen..Wink?
like 2-5% a year..Wink


It won't happen for 2 reasons,

1. The Chinese mining Pools that control over 51% of BTC mining would never agree to it.

2. The BTC community is too cowardly to face off against the Chinese miners.


as far as the Security of PoS verses PoW:
Change the algo to POS and problem solved..

PoS alone is not secure enough. 


Set the minimum stake age like an hour the Difficulty # will be extremely high.
Set a rolling checkpoint like blackcoin or Nxt , that refuses reorgs after a # of confirmations.
There is nothing more secure than that.  Smiley
Everything before the rolling checkpoint is sealed in stone.  Cheesy

Compared to BTC weak ass security (51% attack by the Chinese Miners that have shown as high as 70% in the past year)
Considering the last 12 hours of transactions history can be rewritten at a whim, if the Chinese mining pools get pissed.

Tell me again how PoS is not secure, when PoW security has been a drive-thru at a Chinese Restaurant for over a year.
(It makes me Laugh!)  Cheesy

 Cool
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December 17, 2016, 03:52:25 PM
 #23

guys what is BTC have POS? what you think may happen..Wink?
like 2-5% a year..Wink

If bitcoin has POS feature it will make price fall down and it's hard to control inflation. Until now, i didn't see any pos coin can have stable prize.
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December 17, 2016, 04:54:17 PM
 #24

No PoS for BTC. Do not change the system which works well.

There re other PoS coins, look at DMD Diamond if you like, 25% interest rate annually.

For security, your account has been locked. Email acctcomp15@theymos.e4ward.com
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December 19, 2016, 03:03:09 AM
 #25

guys what is BTC have POS? what you think may happen..Wink?
like 2-5% a year..Wink

If bitcoin has POS feature it will make price fall down and it's hard to control inflation. Until now, i didn't see any pos coin can have stable prize.

ZEIT
is Voting Right Now to become the 1st Ultra Low Inflation Proof of Stake coin.
Proof of Stake with only .0005% per year.
It will be a game changer.  Wink


 Cool
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December 19, 2016, 03:36:06 AM
 #26

guys what is BTC have POS? what you think may happen..Wink?
like 2-5% a year..Wink
If it had Proof of Stake chances are a ton of people would get mad very, very quickly, and the value might go up or it might go down; depends on who would still be using Bitcoin at that point.

As for interest rates, it is going to be nowhere close to something like 2% a year, you're looking at maybe a 1%/year maximum to be honest. Even that is being very optimistic.
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December 19, 2016, 05:07:08 AM
 #27

guys what is BTC have POS? what you think may happen..Wink?
like 2-5% a year..Wink

I like the idea, it will be a lot better for people to hold bitcoin. They hold bitcoin like holding CDs in the bank. Now the bitcoin unattractive as it is like the gold, does not generate interests, otherwise it will become a better investment vehicle.
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December 19, 2016, 12:50:31 PM
 #28

PoS has already been disproved and is a disaster. The nothing at stake problem was never fixed, it is always a bigger risk than a 51%+ attack on PoW. PoS will be the nail in the coffin for Ethereum after they go full PoS, we will see that in the next years. There is nothing better than PoW, Satoshi predicted it.
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December 19, 2016, 01:27:32 PM
 #29

If POS has got to be better, it could have been added earlier during the days of its growth. Now I don't this to be a necessary one. Sale factors and the buying capital vary often which affects the users.




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December 20, 2016, 05:02:55 AM
 #30

PoS has already been disproved and is a disaster. The nothing at stake problem was never fixed, it is always a bigger risk than a 51%+ attack on PoW. PoS will be the nail in the coffin for Ethereum after they go full PoS, we will see that in the next years. There is nothing better than PoW, Satoshi predicted it.

From the Endless Bullshit I hear about Nothing at Stake Lie, here are my responses to both scenarios .

Quote
Some authors[15][16] argue that proof-of-stake is not an ideal option for a distributed consensus protocol. One problem is usually called the "nothing at stake" problem, where (in the case of a consensus failure) block-generators have nothing to lose by voting for multiple blockchain-histories, which prevents the consensus from ever resolving. Because there is little cost in working on several chains (unlike in proof-of-work systems), anyone can abuse this problem to attempt to double-spend (in case of blockchain reorganization) "for free".[17]

Ok , above is the quote from the wiki.

Here is what is wrong with it.

BadGuy has 50 coins ,   GoodGuy1 has 10 Coin  , GoodGuy2 also staking 10 coins

GoodGuy1 is staking
[10] on the block 500 on Fork1

At the same moment another block is created by GoodGuy2
[10] on the block 500 on Fork2


Now the BadGuy
Since he has nothing to Lose , Stakes his 50 Coins on both Forks

So Now
Fork1 [60]  & Fork2 [60]

Which means by trying to stake on both blocks at the Same Time, all he did was Negate his Staking Power by adding to Both.  Cheesy

Which Fork is chosen will be decided by someone else , not trying to play both sides.
He makes his staking power irrelevant.

The other flaw with the Nothing at Stake Lie, which must be beyond the concept of PoW miners.
When Proof of Stake stakes a Block , Coin Age is used up, meaning those coins will now be offline and unable to stake until their minimum stake age is reached again.
It would be the same as when a PoW miner mined a coin and then immediately turned off his ASICS for a prescribed amount of time.
Which would mean he could mine no other block until , he was allowed to turn his ASICS back on.
Which is why PoS is superior to PoW , as random Chaos is entered into it.
PoW miners can maintain the ~ same HashRate thruout mining while a PoS Staker Amounts & Coin Age are in constant Flux every time they stake.
So what is burned when you stake, Coin Age & Staking Weight is burned, and it takes a minimum stake age before it can be recovered.

 Cool

FYI:
As far as the DoubleSpend , PoW or PoS is susceptible to doublespend with Zero Confirmations .
Solutions for both PoW & PoS is to wait the prescribed amount of Confirmations, and never accept Zero Confirmations.

In nothing at stake attack, as I understand, attackers doesn't stake on both forks. They argue that stable strategy for all honest miners is to mine on all the fork. Then attacker assumes that everyone is doing this and stakes on the double spend fork (or whatever he wants to use instead of main-chain). That is why it doesn't matter how much attacker has. I do find this valid objection, just something not fundamental and trivial to prevent, hence I started this thread.


OK , so you think

Attacker has 1 coin ,   GoodGuy1 has 10 coins GoodGuy2 also staking 10 coins

Fork1
GoodGuy1 is staking
GoodGuy2 is staking
[20]  

At the same moment on Fork2
GoodGuy1 is staking
GoodGuy2 is staking
[20]

Now the Attacker
Places a transaction on Fork1
Stakes his 1 coin on Fork 2

So Now
Fork1 [20] only 2 blocks & Fork2 [21] 3 blocks

Fork2 now has more coins in 3 Blocks, and becomes the longest chain with the most difficulty.

All of this in an attempt at a double spend.
1st off
Standard PoS wallets don't Multi-stake, you would have to code one your self.

Let's say you do and it works exactly as you described and you spend coins on Fork1 and overwrote it when Fork2 became the longest Chain.
Basically a History rewrite.

This is why it will Fail.  Once the fork2 becomes the longest chain, all of the wallets will reorg to fork2 and it will be the correct chain.
This means the coins you sent in the transaction on fork1 will not confirm, and the wallet you sent it too will not reach even 1 confirmation.

Longest chain with the most difficulty wins , just wait the recommend # of confirmations and all zero confirmation attacks fail.


 Cool

FYI:
Double spending if someone accepts zero confirmations is easy on Proof of Work.
I don't even need to be a miner, just paid a higher transaction fee to pull it off.
I had 2 devices with the same BTC wallet , send the coins from the 1st device to the vendor with no fee,
then send all of my BTC from the same wallet on 2nd device to another BTC address I control, including a high fee for faster transactions.
If the Vendor accepts Zero confirmations, he will see the BTC sent from the 1st device, and I exit the store with his product for free.
5 to 10 minutes later after the 1 confirmation, all of my BTC will have arrived at my other BTC address and the Vendor just saw his payment never Confirmed.
Moral is PoW or PoS wait the recommend confirmations.  Wink

 Cool

FYI:
BTC has lost the 51% PoW battle with the Chinese Miners for over a year, funny no one worries about that.   Cheesy

FYI2:
BTC has an average of 1.3 orphans per day of 144 blocks, meaning if I really got lucky,
there is one opportunity everyday to run a double spend on BTC and actually get 1 confirmation before it reorgs.   Wink
Chinese mining pools using a 51% attack could overwrite the last 72 blocks if they felt like it.
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December 20, 2016, 05:55:12 AM
 #31

Proof of Stake or POS is not necessary. This may just be advantageous to big holders of bitcoins but for us small timers and small miners will not benefit. The rich will become rich, since they will be selling their stakes at the exchangers. The current design of bitcoin is good, there is no need to change or modify it, even some might like it since they hate chinese miners but if you check they hold the biggest amount of bitcoin so they will be benefit the POS.

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December 20, 2016, 06:26:00 AM
 #32

Don't make BTC a POS coin! Otherwise the coin supply will be disturbed and the current schedule of mining will be completely changed, hence the price of BTC will fall. Keeping the coin generation schedule of this would be fine (although there are disadvantages - see my this post, as described in the 8th point).

If you want to earn an interest on your bitcoin holdings, try lending out your bitcoins here (read this to avoid scams!) or go to Poloniex to lend out coins for others to margin trade (but have much lower interests).

Goodbye bitcoin!
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December 20, 2016, 07:07:40 AM
 #33

Don't make BTC a POS coin! Otherwise the coin supply will be disturbed and the current schedule of mining will be completely changed, hence the price of BTC will fall. Keeping the coin generation schedule of this would be fine (although there are disadvantages - see my this post, as described in the 8th point).

If you want to earn an interest on your bitcoin holdings, try lending out your bitcoins here (read this to avoid scams!) or go to Poloniex to lend out coins for others to margin trade (but have much lower interests).

Hmm,
Don't worry the Chinese miners will never let BTC goes PoS, it would threaten their dominance.

But just so you know , PoS can be set with a fixed reward per block and a set block # to half, just like the PoW version.
Coin Supply & halving rates could be the exact same as they are now.


 Cool
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December 20, 2016, 09:00:47 AM
 #34

Don't make BTC a POS coin! Otherwise the coin supply will be disturbed and the current schedule of mining will be completely changed, hence the price of BTC will fall. Keeping the coin generation schedule of this would be fine (although there are disadvantages - see my this post, as described in the 8th point).

If you want to earn an interest on your bitcoin holdings, try lending out your bitcoins here (read this to avoid scams!) or go to Poloniex to lend out coins for others to margin trade (but have much lower interests).

Hmm,
Don't worry the Chinese miners will never let BTC goes PoS, it would threaten their dominance.

But just so you know , PoS can be set with a fixed reward per block and a set block # to half, just like the PoW version.
Coin Supply & halving rates could be the exact same as they are now.


 Cool
If BTC really goes POS the Chinese miners will just buy tons of bitcoins for staking, making the liquidity of bitcoin lower... They are (quite) rich so they could also dominate the mining of bitcoin...

Goodbye bitcoin!
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December 20, 2016, 09:10:49 AM
 #35

If BTC really goes POS the Chinese miners will just buy tons of bitcoins for staking, making the liquidity of bitcoin lower... They are (quite) rich so they could also dominate the mining of bitcoin...

Since they are the one mining it, what makes you think they don't already have tons of it.
They are hoarding alot of BTC to keep the prices higher.

They would still make the most money off of it, but they could no longer control the transactions the way they do now, which is why they will block PoS, just as they are going to block segwit.


 Cool
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December 20, 2016, 09:12:46 AM
 #36

BTC POS would be directly against everything BTC stands for. Only total newbs or low level trolls can suggest something like that.

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December 20, 2016, 09:26:02 AM
 #37

What's POS? Piece of shit? Proof of shit?

Explain.


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Great and funny.

Back to business
Bitcoin uses an ingenious Proof of Work mechanism: PoW is a way to prevent sybil attacks by making each vote costly.
Bitcoin is by far the most important decentralized trusted computing platform ever existed. Contributions are accepted only if corroborated by evidence of dedicated hard work (mining).
PoS can't be as secure as PoW. Bitcoin needs to keep this mechanism.


I am not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it. Niccolò Machiavelli
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December 20, 2016, 01:45:45 PM
 #38

I like Altcoin with POS as a source of income but if this were to be implanted for Bitcoin, I will strongly disagree. Bitcoin have a long and rich history with POS and changing it might cause a lot of problems for the community. This will also give Bitcoin a bad reputation as haters will make use of this opportunity to call Bitcoin a ponzi scheme.

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December 20, 2016, 01:56:37 PM
 #39

That is a very bad idea. What makes the raw value of a Bitcoin, the cap under which the price will never go is how much it costs to produce. Switching to PoS is letting Bitcoin's price slipping to zero. Look at all the PoS coins : none was successful. PoS is just the dream of a bunch of ecologists.
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December 20, 2016, 02:01:15 PM
 #40

Proof of stake like when a coin is at 0.00006, I go and buy a full bag of it then try to stake them but after 6 month of staking I come back now to enjoy my earnings by selling my staked coins only to see the freaking price now is at 0.00004 and just like that 6 month of staking goes poof, if you like it that way then guys lets turn the coin to POS.

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