ArcCsch (OP)
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December 18, 2016, 05:59:34 AM Last edit: January 06, 2017, 12:27:18 AM by ArcCsch |
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(1) Download the generator from https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/, open it and skip randomness generation: (2) Use a strong passphrase, enter it into the "brain-wallet" box, ad a backslash, and add a salt (something you can easily remember but is quite unique, to prevent hackers from going after everyone at once, such as your name or phone number) type the same thing into the BIP38 encryption: (3) Copy the encrypted private key (6PRUVtdGSuoypYyf2hAWukGzZVrtE2b89QrXXyVXuVHRQgWA8oj4N9fumC) to the "brain-wallet" box, turn off BIP38, and create the wallet:
(4) Use this as your brain wallet, it is more secure than a regular brain wallet because BIP38 key-stretching prevents hackers from searching quickly, and the salting in step 3 prevents hackers from attacking everyone at once. Note that this is a way to improvise on existing software to create a secure brain wallet, a better solution would be software that automatically uses scrypt stretching for brain wallets, but this is not currently available. EDIT: Use Warp Wallet. Also, don't use any suggestion (specially one from a n00b like myself) for large amounts of Bitcoin until it has been adequately peer-reviewed.
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If you don't have sole and complete control over the private keys, you don't have any bitcoin! Signature campaigns are OK, zero tolorance for spam! 1JGYXhfhPrkiHcpYkiuCoKpdycPhGCuswa
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OmegaStarScream
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December 18, 2016, 03:03:12 PM |
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I believe that your birth date , your name or your phone number are the first things that a hacker would try to use before trying to crack/brute anything so I don't really see how this could be more secure then anything else , using a random password in the other hand or something that make no sense to you may be very hard to remember over the years and you could finish by losing your coins.
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piotr_n
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December 18, 2016, 03:40:07 PM |
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All fine, but which part of this guide is actually making it "strong"? ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) Perhaps I can link to my other post from this forum: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1690812.msg17129122#msg17129122Personally I prefer brain wallets, because I'm paranoid about having a physical backup of my keys. But a strong password is the key to the security here - and there are many attack vectors on passwords. Plus obviously a way to never forget it, while not having it written anywhere.
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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achow101
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December 18, 2016, 04:44:23 PM |
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It is highly NOT RECOMMENDED to use brainwallets. Humans are a horrendously low source of entropy. There are multiple research papers and programs that show that brainwallets are horribly insecure and easily cracked as what you think is a strong password probably is not a strong password.
BIP 38 paper wallets will not be particularly helpful here. It only protects against someone stealing your paper wallet and trying to get the keys. BIP 38 does not protect against someone just guessing the password you used to create your brainwallet.
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CIYAM
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December 18, 2016, 04:49:12 PM |
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It is highly NOT RECOMMENDED to use brainwallets. Humans are a horrendously low source of entropy. There are multiple research papers and programs that show that brainwallets are horribly insecure and easily cracked as what you think is a strong password probably is not a strong password.
And yet if you look here: https://blockchain.info/address/1Au4v6dZacFVsWXeKUMJd99AtyBZeqti2L1 BTC that has been there since 2012 is still there - I posted about this here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=885616.0It certainly isn't a simple thing to create an effective brainwallet but it also certainly isn't impossible (as I've demonstrated for four years).
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btchris
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December 18, 2016, 05:29:16 PM |
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It is highly NOT RECOMMENDED to use brainwallets. Humans are a horrendously low source of entropy. There are multiple research papers and programs that show that brainwallets are horribly insecure and easily cracked as what you think is a strong password probably is not a strong password.
And yet if you look here: https://blockchain.info/address/1Au4v6dZacFVsWXeKUMJd99AtyBZeqti2L1 BTC that has been there since 2012 is still there - I posted about this here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=885616.0It certainly isn't a simple thing to create an effective brainwallet but it also certainly isn't impossible (as I've demonstrated for four years). That last sentence is rather important, and usually gets lost in the noise. It's not a question of whether or not it's theoretically possible to create a safe brain wallet, it's one of whether or not it's a wise idea to promote them. I've no problem if CIYAM wants to create a brain wallet because he's demonstrated that he generally knows what he's talking about, and is willing to accept the risks. I've a big problem with OP (or anyone else for that matter) promoting brain wallets in general because of the damage it can cause. This is further compounded by the fact that most people (I'm no exception) tend to overestimate their knowledge of a subject they haven't thoroughly studied ("maybe someone else will choose a bad brain wallet, or forget their brain wallet due to a wetware malfunction, but surely I'm smart enough to avoid these problems"). In short: please don't use brain wallets. Please don't promote them (that includes you, CIYAM).
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CIYAM
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December 18, 2016, 05:45:58 PM |
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In short: please don't use brain wallets. Please don't promote them (that includes you, CIYAM).
I haven't "promoted" the use of brain wallets but have simply stated (and have proven) that they "can be safe" as I think it is not reasonable for people to constantly state that *no brainwallet can be safe* due to being a human being (but I won't deny that perhaps for the vast majority it is probably not going to be safe). I am considering to move that 1 BTC and then reveal the brainwallet passphrase that was used as an illustration of how one might go about creating such a thing (but I will not be *recommending* others to do this).
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ArcCsch (OP)
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December 18, 2016, 05:51:54 PM |
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The purpose of this thread is to create a way to make brain wallet more secure using the BIP38 key stretching algorithm, I, however, bungled it, and the instructions are not nearly as secure as they can be. I am surprised that peer-review did not adequately explain this vulnerability, I will fix the instructions as soon as possible. They are still more secure than the normal brain wallet.
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If you don't have sole and complete control over the private keys, you don't have any bitcoin! Signature campaigns are OK, zero tolorance for spam! 1JGYXhfhPrkiHcpYkiuCoKpdycPhGCuswa
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btchris
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December 18, 2016, 06:05:40 PM |
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I haven't "promoted" the use of brain wallets but have simply stated (and have proven) that they "can be safe" as I think it is not reasonable for people to constantly state that *no brainwallet can be safe* due to being a human being (but I won't deny that perhaps for the vast majority it is probably not going to be safe).
I am considering to move that 1 BTC and then reveal the brainwallet passphrase that was used as an illustration of how one might go about creating such a thing (but I will not be *recommending* others to do this).
I appreciate that you don't explicitly promote brain wallets, but you must admit that you did post a response in a thread that was started by OP to promote a "good" way of creating brain wallets (it wasn't) showing that your brain wallet was still safe as pro-brain-wallet evidence. Depending on how some will read that response, it could be misinterpreted as a general promotion of brain wallets (how many people will follow your link and read that entire thread? or even read the context in this thread?).... that was my complaint.
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piotr_n
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December 18, 2016, 09:53:59 PM |
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There are multiple research papers and programs that show that brainwallets are horribly insecure and easily cracked as what you think is a strong password probably is not a strong password.
Please don't use words like "horribly" or "probably" trying to discuss technical issues. Please refer me to the multiple research papers (and programs) you've mentioned. I am able to discuss technical aspects (numbers, codes, algorithms) and science behind them. I am not however willing to argue with your emotions or believes. I use brain wallets myself, have been for years. For me they are more secure, reliable and convenient than wallets which require to be stored and backed up.
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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achow101
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December 18, 2016, 10:52:05 PM |
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Please don't use words like "horribly" or "probably" trying to discuss technical issues.
Why? I understand not using probably (I thought this was in beginners and help so it was primarily as a warning to noobs) but what is wrong with "horribly insecure"? Please refer me to the multiple research papers (and programs) you've mentioned.
Cracking programs: Research: I am able to discuss technical aspects (numbers, codes, algorithms) and science behind them. I am not however willing to argue with your emotions or believes.
This is not just something that I believe or my emotions. Many other people in the Bitcoin technical area have discussed how brainwallets are insecure and not recommended for general use. Off the top of my head, I know that greg and theymos has discussed this before. I use brain wallets myself, have been for years. For me they are more secure, reliable and convenient than wallets which require to be stored and backed up.
It is possible to securely use brainwallets, but it should not be something that is recommended to newbies and those who do not understand technical aspects of Bitcoin IMO.
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Evil-Knievel
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December 18, 2016, 11:03:48 PM |
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I have my entire BTC holdings in brain wallets, there is no safer place for them imho.
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piotr_n
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December 18, 2016, 11:16:42 PM Last edit: December 18, 2016, 11:49:48 PM by piotr_n |
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Please don't use words like "horribly" or "probably" trying to discuss technical issues.
Why? I understand not using probably (I thought this was in beginners and help so it was primarily as a warning to noobs) but what is wrong with "horribly insecure"? Because how can anyone objectively disagree (or agree) with a complexity of a technical challenge described by such words? Do you even understand that cracking a brain-wallet's seed password is a serious technical challenge? Which tool/approach would you have chosen to crack my brain wallet? It is possible to securely use brainwallets, but it should not be something that is recommended to newbies and those who do not understand technical aspects of Bitcoin IMO. Which is exactly why guides like this can be very useful. Unlike dogmatic statements based on someone's beliefs, basically coming down to: don't use a brain wallet, because you are too stupid to make a proper password. IMHO, there is nothing more stupid (or arrogant) than assuming that all the other people are stupid, except greg and theymos ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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piotr_n
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December 18, 2016, 11:29:34 PM |
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I actually read it quite often and I always ignore it, but it was always upsetting me.
People saying basically "I know what I am talking about, don't us a brain wallet and if you do don't come to me crying after you loose your bitcoins".
I just wonder whether in such case people can come to you crying when they used a non-brain wallet and then either lost it because they had no backup or because someone stole their (backup) wallet file. Can they?
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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Evil-Knievel
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December 18, 2016, 11:31:53 PM |
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I actually read it quite often and I always ignore it, but it was always upsetting me.
People saying basically "I know what I am talking about, don't us a brain wallet and if you do don't come to me crying after you loose your bitcoins".
I just wonder whether in such case people can come to you crying when they used a non-brain wallet and then either lost it because they had no backup or because someone stole their (backup) wallet file. Can they?
If you like you can take a look at my brain wallet. It will even try to sign and verify a message to ensure that the generated key is working fine: https://github.com/OrdinaryDude/brain-wallet
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piotr_n
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December 18, 2016, 11:33:38 PM |
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No thanks, I have my own. I don't trust other people with their wallet software - no matter if it would be a brain wallet, a core wallet or a hardware wallet. ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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Evil-Knievel
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December 18, 2016, 11:34:57 PM |
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No thanks, I have my own. I don't trust other people with their wallet software - no matter if it would be a brain wallet, a core wallet or a hardware wallet. ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) This is the best attitude ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ! That's why I have created my own as well.
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piotr_n
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December 19, 2016, 12:10:32 AM |
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Cracking programs: Research: Sorry mate, but I've gone through these programs and "research" papers and I must say that if they have any value then it's rather entertaining than scientific. Let me just refer to the last one from the list - this is their "conclusion" sections: As an example application of this research, we have been able to crack thousands of passwords including some quite difficult ones. Our research demonstrates again that brain wallets are not secure and no one should use them.
And this is the list of the "quite difficult ones" that they are so proud of cracking: 1. say hello to my little friend 2. to be or not to be 3. Walk Into This Room 4. party like it’s 1999 5. yohohoandabottleofrum 6. dudewheresmycar 7. dajiahao 8. hankou 9. {1summer2leo3phoebe 10. 0racle9i 11. andreas antonopoulos 12. Arnold Schwarzenegger 13. blablablablablablabla 14. for the longest time 15. captain spaulding I mean, seriously? ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) What kind of idiot do you think would chose any of the above passwords to protect his life's savings?
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Check out gocoin - my original project of full bitcoin node & cold wallet written in Go.PGP fingerprint: AB9E A551 E262 A87A 13BB 9059 1BE7 B545 CDF3 FD0E
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philipma1957
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December 19, 2016, 05:23:11 AM |
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Cracking programs: Research: Sorry mate, but I've gone through these programs and "research" papers and I must say that if they have any value then it's rather entertaining than scientific. Let me just refer to the last one from the list - this is their "conclusion" sections: As an example application of this research, we have been able to crack thousands of passwords including some quite difficult ones. Our research demonstrates again that brain wallets are not secure and no one should use them.
And this is the list of the "quite difficult ones" that they are so proud of cracking: 1. say hello to my little friend 2. to be or not to be 3. Walk Into This Room 4. party like it’s 1999 5. yohohoandabottleofrum 6. dudewheresmycar 7. dajiahao 8. hankou 9. {1summer2leo3phoebe 10. 0racle9i 11. andreas antonopoulos 12. Arnold Schwarzenegger 13. blablablablablablabla 14. for the longest time 15. captain spaulding I mean, seriously? ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) What kind of idiot do you think would chose any of the above passwords to protect his life's savings? Those are pretty weak.
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achow101
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December 19, 2016, 05:41:08 AM |
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I mean, seriously? ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) What kind of idiot do you think would chose any of the above passwords to protect his life's savings? Clearly multiple people chose those passwords to protect some amount of Bitcoin. The point is that people think those passwords are strong passwords because online password checkers say that those passwords are strong. If you are recommending people to use brainwallets, they are likely to use those types of passwords thinking that they are strong passwords when in actuality they are not.
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