London Hedge Funds moving into Bitcoin

[maxmint]

This is absolute BULLSHIT post. And is typical fake bullshit news.

Exante brokerage seems to be quite real. And their bitcoin announcement too:
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

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[Mageant]

Given that Exante has made it public and already has the BTC, I don't care why Keiser is broadcasting it.

BTW, the fund says it has 81000 BTC with a +1000% return in the last three months, so they must have bought before the rise went strong.

That must have been an initial investment of about $2 million then.

[Manticore]

ugh.... hedge funds managers are not that stupid. And if you believe crap from Max Keiser, you're an idiot

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

Dark pools would allow large holders to cash out without crashing the market, and allow themselves to enter a position without driving the market to absurd heights. You would not even know it happened.

Hedge funds are not complete idiots. Do any of you really think they would place open market orders from $250 to $2500? Hmmmm....I think I'll buy 2M shares of AAPL with a stop limit order at $430, limit at $4300. What's BAC trading these days? $12.50? Buy all you can to $125. They are bound to grow.....

[wopwop]

max keiser is a professional





























troll

[Manticore]

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

And don't we already know that more than half of the 11M coins are out of circulation: http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf

So dark pools surely have as much or more liquidity than Mt Gox.

[lebing]

ugh.... hedge funds managers are not that stupid. And if you believe crap from Max Keiser, you're an idiot

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

Dark pools would allow large holders to cash out without crashing the market, and allow themselves to enter a position without driving the market to absurd heights. You would not even know it happened.

Hedge funds are not complete idiots. Do any of you really think they would place open market orders from $250 to $2500? Hmmmm....I think I'll buy 2M shares of AAPL with a stop limit order at $430, limit at $4300. What's BAC trading these days? $12.50? Buy all you can to $125. They are bound to grow.....

If they havent already established their position, they will have significant issues getting those kinds of funds available for a dark pool, which will lead to massive price movements (due to scarcity) on the exchange in any case.

As I don't believe they have established 1B in bitcoins already, this should be significant enough with dark pool trading to take us well above 500 and probably closer to 1000.

[rebuilder]

Seeing Keiser talk gives me the same kind of creeps Bruce Wagner did.

[Manticore]

If they havent already established their position, they will have significant issues getting those kinds of funds available for a dark pool, which will lead to massive price movements (due to scarcity) on the exchange in any case.

They could purchase 500K - 1M coins without moving the market very much using dark pools. I highly doubt they would barrel in all at once with 1B. But yes, 1B would affect the exchanges.

As I don't believe they have established 1B in bitcoins already, this should be significant enough with dark pool trading to take us well above 500 and probably closer to 1000.

Of course they haven't. Yes, this is more reasonable.

EDIT: If this is not a complete embellishment.....

[caveden]

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

Dark pools would allow large holders to cash out without crashing the market, and allow themselves to enter a position without driving the market to absurd heights. You would not even know it happened.

I never understood this hypothetical logic of dark pools. It's as if you were claiming that supply and demand only affects price when deals are made publicly, but that's obviously not true. Prices are driven by supply and demand regardless of whether there is a "public market" or not.
Throwing one gigabuck at Bitcoin will certainly produce a tsunami in the price, with or without dark pools.

[Manticore]

They could purchase 500K - 1M coins without moving the market very much using dark pools. I highly doubt they would barrel in all at once with 1B. But yes, 1B would affect the exchanges.

Dark pools do not create coins. They have to buy them somewhere. Or mine them. What would be the interest of a miner to sell large quantities of coins at bulk price when they can sell them higher on open markets ?

Do you think I'm mentally retarded?

Dark pools also help large holders sell large quantities so that they do not crash the market, because of one of the large sellers tried to unload 500K coins.....no, they would not get higher prices on the open market.

[lebing]

"The fund currently manages a portfolio of 81,000 BTC"
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Far cry from 1B - but not too shabby in any case.

[caveden]

Dark pools also help large holders sell large quantities so that they do not crash the market, because of one of the large sellers tried to unload 500K coins.....no, they would not get higher prices on the open market.

You set your selling price. If you're a big seller and don't want to "crash" the market, build your wall at the price you believe there will buyers. If the big London buyers really want that much, they'll consume your wall.

What are the actual purposes of a darkpool? It'd work exactly the same way, only without announcing the wall. So what? The end price will necessarily be the same, i.e., the result of supply and demand.

[Zomdifros]

My take would be that Max is trying to get the hedge funds into Bitcoin but is unsuccessful so far. By publicly tweeting he is getting them involved he is putting the managers under pressure to act swiftly. He gets away with it by making sure everyone understands he is a journalist so he isn't about to keep things a secret anyway.

[Manticore]

Thank you. Even if they do go in with 1B (??), they will be using dark liquidity. They would/could not do this on the open market.

Dark pools would allow large holders to cash out without crashing the market, and allow themselves to enter a position without driving the market to absurd heights. You would not even know it happened.

I never understood this hypothetical logic of dark pools. It's as if you were claiming that supply and demand only affects price when deals are made publicly, but that's obviously not true. Prices are driven by supply and demand regardless of whether there is a "public market" or not.
Throwing one gigabuck at Bitcoin will certainly produce a tsunami in the price, with or without dark pools.

True, dark pools on Wall Street are used mainly for anonymity. BTC is so illiquid (relatively) that dark pools would help by matching larger buyers and sellers without moving the market as erratically.

And looking at Exante (and I already knew this actually), the fund is basically a vehicle allowing other hedge funds & HNWIs to trade in and out of bitcoins in the secondary market (with fund shares), I believe. This fund would have a greater affect on the overall exchanges than a closed-end fund because they would be dipping into various exchanges as needed (I assume).

[Luckybit]

Yeah, well, we will see about that. My mind isn't made up yet about Max Keiser, but he's a TV personality and that's almost always a bad thing. The last thing we need (and is perhaps inevitable at this point) is the rise of Bitcoin demagogues.

re: Bitcoin demagogues.  Yep, can be bad.


re: Max Keiser.  It's hard to make one's mind up about how 'sensational' versus 'principled' Max is.  If you look at some of his one-on-one interviews you can truly see that Max is very well grounded in, what he considers to be, fundamentals of fairness, equity, impartiality.


So....  I believe Max Keiser is more so a force for good.  Could he be responsible for inflating Bitcoin expectations?  Sure.  Though, I still think Max serves an important role.

I've emailed him at some point in the past. He's for real and actually believes in what he says. Also look at his actions, the businesses he has started and who he has on his show. He's no Alex Jones media personality, he's been complaining about the bankers since before the economic crisis began. I used to listen to him in 2004 back when I used to smoke pot all day.

[Luckybit]

Check out this Bitcoin is being offered as an investement on Exante.eu for London hedge funds (this is the Malta hedge fund people have been talking about):
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Minimum account size: 100,000 Euros.

Max Keiser claims there is $1 billion lined up for this:
https://twitter.com/maxkeiser/status/321897445422399488

Looks like the big players will be coming soon!

This "bubble" still has a long ways to go!

Can you explain for a noob like me what this would mean? $1 bilion will go into bitcoin market? Or 100.000 €? How would it change the exchange rate?

$1 billion is to be spent buying bitcoins.

At the current market price that would be about 4 million BTC.
I doubt that many people will actually be selling.
So if that happens the price will go *way* up.

If we assume they can buy 5% of existing bitcoins (very optimistic IMHO) with that $1 billion then the price has to go up 10x at least.
That would result in a price of $2500 per bitcoin.

ugh.... hedge funds managers are not that stupid. And if you believe crap from Max Keiser, you're an idiot

Not all hedge fund managers are on some great global team elite. They all have different agendas. Some are not happy with the current system just like you aren't and just happen to be hedge fund managers.

[Luckybit]

I don't understand what exactly Exante need Max for, other than advertising. Is that the deal? I'll go on tv and tell people about your hedge fund for a 2% fee.  How does RT not ban this crap.

Max is actually very connected in that world. Look at who he sold his companies too and look at the companies he started. He's actually one of the first to do virtual currencies and if I have he right he owns some kind of patent.

[damnek]

They could purchase 500K - 1M coins without moving the market very much using dark pools. I highly doubt they would barrel in all at once with 1B. But yes, 1B would affect the exchanges.

Dark pools do not create coins. They have to buy them somewhere. Or mine them. What would be the interest of a miner to sell large quantities of coins at bulk price when they can sell them higher on open markets ?

Do you think I'm mentally retarded?
Dark pools also help large holders sell large quantities so that they do not crash the market, because of one of the large sellers tried to unload 500K coins.....no, they would not get higher prices on the open market.

You didn't answer the question : why - in such a bullish market - would anyone with a large number of coins trying to cash out prefer to sell them at a "fixed" price somehow "under" the mtgox price when he can simply build a wall and quietly wait for somebody to buy it at its price ? Why ? For anonymity ? He will have to cash the check someday and pay its taxes. Unless he "dark buyer" pays in cash which I don't believe.

Unless, of course, the dark pool buyer is stuck in MtGox verification queue and is ready to pay a nice premium to buy its coins today and "win" 10 days. At the current growth rate, it means the seller could ask $1000/BTC and not sound ridiculous.

Sure. They're going to let somebody with millions wait in an id verification queue.

[b!z]

This is going to be big. Buy buy buy before it's too late!

[dg2010]

Exante brokerage seems to be quite real. And their bitcoin announcement too:
https://exante.eu/press/news/266/

Most of my neighbors are traders, given that I live within spitting distance of Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and about 15 other mega banks.

Trust me Bitcoin has not hit the London financial crowd yet. The only people who seem to be making noise are doing so to pump up the value of their own investments. There are no big moves in London to invest in Bitcoin because there isn't anyway to begin pumping such cash into Bitcoin with the current exchanges in place. Nobody in their right mind would send such huge volumes of cash into an exchange like MTGOX who is tainted for life with the last hack crash.

The London traders will start getting serious if we had a serious exchange in the UK which allowed GBP deposits. Sorry but Intersango doesn't count.