We are doing something wrong

[Twerka]

Today I saw how the BTC fall from 245 to 200 (250 to 136 on eBTC). I saw how the LTC/BTC exchange went from 0.025 to 0.019.
All important coins were going down (BTC, LTC, TRC...).

Now, everybody knows here something important about offer/demmand, if people want to buy coins they'll rise, if people sell it they go down.


Our mistake is using market to exchange the coins for fiat money.
First, because when we sell we are saying: "your USD has more value than my BTC", so the price go down.
Second, because imagine I can make as much money I want; then I can buy all the coins.

That may sound like a "conspiracy" but, reading here there is a lot of people who don't like banks, who don't like the taxes we pay to them; and, after saying that, you run to the market and sell your coins for 2 dollars made for that guys. Even if you sell the coins for 1000 dollars it does not worth the shot.

If we hold the coins, they go up, there may come rich guys with millions trying to buy our hard mined BTC or LTC, but, if nobody sell, the price go higher and higher. Everybody here wins if we work together.
So, I think, we should separate cryptocurrencies from the "normal fiat money"; we should use BTC to buy directly things, property: computers, a TV, a Sofa, anything; but never change them directly for money.

I know almost everybody here does don't know nothing about economy (even me, who studied economy for a year). I know that here there is a lot of people who don't care about the currency, the taxes, or anything, they are here because they think they can make money with this "business". We are, i think, almost everybody nerds who know a lot about VGAs and internet protocols, but nothing about economy, market; so we are easy to fool when we jump to the field of economy. For that reason I tell to who want to listen: Think twice before sell your earned coins.

And, finally, I repeat if nobody here sells his coins, the price will go higher, and everybody will make more money. If you like "speculation" exchange BTC for LTC for TRC or other coins but never for money.

All we win if we work together.

And excuse my english.

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[Wuji]

The price went up on speculation and not fundamentals.  Check my first thread I ever started.  I saw the crash coming based on volatility and updated it right before.

"We" are people on bitcointalk.  No you can not control the price as probably most of the speculators don't read this site.  Buy low, sell high.  Study fundamentals. Investing 101.

[FenixRD]

Today I saw how the BTC fall from 245 to 200 (250 to 136 on eBTC). I saw how the LTC/BTC exchange went from 0.025 to 0.019.
All important coins were going down (BTC, LTC, TRC...).

Now, everybody knows here something important about offer/demmand, if people want to buy coins they'll rise, if people sell it they go down.


Our mistake is using market to exchange the coins for fiat money.
First, because when we sell we are saying: "your USD has more value than my BTC", so the price go down.
Second, because imagine I can make as much money I want; then I can buy all the coins.

That may sound like a "conspiracy" but, reading here there is a lot of people who don't like banks, who don't like the taxes we pay to them; and, after saying that, you run to the market and sell your coins for 2 dollars made for that guys. Even if you sell the coins for 1000 dollars it does not worth the shot.

If we hold the coins, they go up, there may come rich guys with millions trying to buy our hard mined BTC or LTC, but, if nobody sell, the price go higher and higher. Everybody here wins if we work together.
So, I think, we should separate cryptocurrencies from the "normal fiat money"; we should use BTC to buy directly things, property: computers, a TV, a Sofa, anything; but never change them directly for money.

I know almost everybody here does don't know nothing about economy (even me, who studied economy for a year). I know that here there is a lot of people who don't care about the currency, the taxes, or anything, they are here because they think they can make money with this "business". We are, i think, almost everybody nerds who know a lot about VGAs and internet protocols, but nothing about economy, market; so we are easy to fool when we jump to the field of economy. For that reason I tell to who want to listen: Think twice before sell your earned coins.

And, finally, I repeat if nobody here sells his coins, the price will go higher, and everybody will make more money. If you like "speculation" exchange BTC for LTC for TRC or other coins but never for money.

All we win if we work together.

And excuse my english.

Bitcoin is indeed a positive-sum game, for everyone but the bankers I suppose, if we work together. Many things in game theory are like this -- or at least, the best outcomes almost always result from perfect information and perfect cooperation. The problem is, people are greedy, selfish, and not very smart. So, we'll never get them to work together -- someone will always cheat and undercut the rest, like a heist movie where one thief betrays the rest.

That leaves us with how to properly strategize, knowing how everyone else will behave. And that's game theory as applied to global economics and bitcoin. Or more correctly, how to incentivize economically helpful behavior and disincentivize damaging behavior. Not easy in a decentralized market!

Note that one of the big arguments used in recreating the Federal Reserve in the US back in the early 1900s was a major market destabilization and a run on the banks. Bankers and economists were convinced that the market needed to pay the price of being less "free" and transparent, in order to create stability. JP Morgan himself singlehandedly saved NY at a personal loss, in the end, of $21M or so. His leveraging of the situation ended up making people portray him as evil, after he saved them. The world is not black and white, it is gray, very murky, and full of people who are sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidentally, in both cases. The jury is still kind of out on the artificial stability thing, and we're testing it mightily with Bitcoin. With that stability came a massive increase in the Shadow Banking realm, and a few became quite rich while giving us this stability. And, since we've seen a few times that even that isn't particularly stable, most Bitcoiners will argue that it isn't worth it and we'd rather be back with a backed-with-something currency.

[Razick]

Today I saw how the BTC fall from 245 to 200 (250 to 136 on eBTC). I saw how the LTC/BTC exchange went from 0.025 to 0.019.
All important coins were going down (BTC, LTC, TRC...).

Now, everybody knows here something important about offer/demmand, if people want to buy coins they'll rise, if people sell it they go down.


Our mistake is using market to exchange the coins for fiat money.
First, because when we sell we are saying: "your USD has more value than my BTC", so the price go down.
Second, because imagine I can make as much money I want; then I can buy all the coins.

That may sound like a "conspiracy" but, reading here there is a lot of people who don't like banks, who don't like the taxes we pay to them; and, after saying that, you run to the market and sell your coins for 2 dollars made for that guys. Even if you sell the coins for 1000 dollars it does not worth the shot.

If we hold the coins, they go up, there may come rich guys with millions trying to buy our hard mined BTC or LTC, but, if nobody sell, the price go higher and higher. Everybody here wins if we work together.
So, I think, we should separate cryptocurrencies from the "normal fiat money"; we should use BTC to buy directly things, property: computers, a TV, a Sofa, anything; but never change them directly for money.

I know almost everybody here does don't know nothing about economy (even me, who studied economy for a year). I know that here there is a lot of people who don't care about the currency, the taxes, or anything, they are here because they think they can make money with this "business". We are, i think, almost everybody nerds who know a lot about VGAs and internet protocols, but nothing about economy, market; so we are easy to fool when we jump to the field of economy. For that reason I tell to who want to listen: Think twice before sell your earned coins.

And, finally, I repeat if nobody here sells his coins, the price will go higher, and everybody will make more money. If you like "speculation" exchange BTC for LTC for TRC or other coins but never for money.

All we win if we work together.

And excuse my english.

That's not realistic. The free-market is the only way to find the real value of something like Bitcoin (or really anything for that matter). If no one ever sells, all we'd get is fake prices, not to mention that no one can buy Bitcoins. Furthermore, while it's true that if no one sold Bitcoin the price would not drop, the Byzantine Generals Paradox (which was solved by Bitcoin in reference to double spends) has not been solved by the market. There is no way to trust that other traders will refrain from selling: and they won't.

[Francesco]

Today I saw how the BTC fall from 245 to 200 (250 to 136 on eBTC). I saw how the LTC/BTC exchange went from 0.025 to 0.019.
All important coins were going down (BTC, LTC, TRC...).

Now, everybody knows here something important about offer/demmand, if people want to buy coins they'll rise, if people sell it they go down.


Our mistake is using market to exchange the coins for fiat money.
First, because when we sell we are saying: "your USD has more value than my BTC", so the price go down.
Second, because imagine I can make as much money I want; then I can buy all the coins.

That may sound like a "conspiracy" but, reading here there is a lot of people who don't like banks, who don't like the taxes we pay to them; and, after saying that, you run to the market and sell your coins for 2 dollars made for that guys. Even if you sell the coins for 1000 dollars it does not worth the shot.

If we hold the coins, they go up, there may come rich guys with millions trying to buy our hard mined BTC or LTC, but, if nobody sell, the price go higher and higher. Everybody here wins if we work together.
So, I think, we should separate cryptocurrencies from the "normal fiat money"; we should use BTC to buy directly things, property: computers, a TV, a Sofa, anything; but never change them directly for money.

I know almost everybody here does don't know nothing about economy (even me, who studied economy for a year). I know that here there is a lot of people who don't care about the currency, the taxes, or anything, they are here because they think they can make money with this "business". We are, i think, almost everybody nerds who know a lot about VGAs and internet protocols, but nothing about economy, market; so we are easy to fool when we jump to the field of economy. For that reason I tell to who want to listen: Think twice before sell your earned coins.

And, finally, I repeat if nobody here sells his coins, the price will go higher, and everybody will make more money. If you like "speculation" exchange BTC for LTC for TRC or other coins but never for money.

All we win if we work together.

And excuse my english.

You sell coins because what you want to buy is not priced in coins. If even there was a successful conspiracy to never sell coins, you would be trapped with coins with which you can't buy what you want. Or even if the merchants selling to you accepted bitcoins, they would have to sell to pay their expenses; unless they only buy from bitcoiners too, of course.

So in the end, you'd have to build an economy entierely between people who already have use bitcoins ...but then USD price would be irrelevant -since you never plan to do that conversion anyway! 

That's the reason no state will ban imports. True, without exports the value of your currency would skyrocket. But that would be of no use, since the only wau you deal with that other currencies is to export -and there, overvaluation of your money is just damage. In the end, you have just obtained to lock yurself out of the global market -thus axphyxiating your own, of course.

Same thing with bitcoin. We need as many people as possible to have coins to make businesses adopt them -thus giving them real value, that's the only way. Tricks almost never work.

[Twerka]

Thanks for the answers, it help to see other points of view.

That's not realistic. The free-market is the only way to find the real value of something like Bitcoin (or really anything for that matter). If no one ever sells, all we'd get is fake prices, not to mention that no one can buy Bitcoins.

Remember that a "free market" does not necessary needs "FIAT money". You can perfectly have a free market based only on bitcoin, or based on shells, or red stones.
To know a value of something you dont need to know it's price. Price and value are different things. If we were 10000 BC, no money invented (fiat or representative); then the axe I use to catch animals is more valuable than your stone; but I accept 4 stones for my axe. There is the value. No dollars.

Of course, bitcoin and dollars has no value (well, a paper dollar can be used to make a paper plane); both are system accepted by people and translated to value. Saying that you need to exchange bitcoin>dolars to know it's price is exactly as say that you need to exchange dolar>bitcoins to know the value of dolars.


Of course, I may be wrong.

[odolvlobo]

What we are doing wrong is focusing far too much on the price. I hope the crash chased away all of the people looking to make a quick buck. Good riddance!

Bitcoin is a payment system. As the payment system goes mainstream, the price of the bitcoin will follow. We will all enjoy the benefits of a great invention.

[Operatr]

What we are doing wrong is focusing far too much on the price. I hope the crash chased away all of the people looking to make a quick buck. Good riddance!

Bitcoin is a payment system. As the payment system goes mainstream, the price of the bitcoin will follow. We will all enjoy the benefits of a great invention.

^^ This

Flashpan investors are not good for BTC