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Author Topic: Andresen and Ver wrong about bitcoin.  (Read 660 times)
steelhouse (OP)
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December 27, 2016, 05:24:30 AM
 #1

Both these guys want to see the block size increase, yet they do not have to pay for it. Despite their negativity bitcoin has risen from $200 to $900, why?  Because bitcoin does not have to be used in daily small transactions.  First governments will not allow it.  The medium of exchange of the world is the USD.  It will remain the medium of exchange as long as inflation is less than 10% a year.  At that point people will move to the lastest new currency, probably the Euro.   Let them pay for all the new fancy paper with pictures of old men and women on them.  The transactions per second will never be enough.  You are delaying the inevitable.  

You go to ebay, amazon, or alibaba they accept the dollar.  They need to accept the dollar for taxes anyways.  Send 1 bitcoin to paypal and you have $900 in store credit.  You prevent the government from benefiting from the inflation.  Over a year your $900 will lose about $50 in purchasing power.  To save $500 more people will use bitcoin, those that don't will see their bank accounts confiscated by debtors and deficit spending.  You have to use bitcoin you have no choice.  Using bitcoin in daily transactions should be discouraged as many city governments need sales taxes to build the roads, build parks, and protect the streets.  Bitcoin should not be used in daily transactions.

Isn't the important thing that bitcoin goes up?
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steelhouse (OP)
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December 27, 2016, 05:35:47 AM
Last edit: December 27, 2016, 06:03:29 AM by steelhouse
 #2

To add bitcoin is a fixed supply.  It can be hoarded like land.  When King of Lydia first used gold.  He ended up owning almost all the gold in society.  If a cryptocurrency becomes law of the land, watch out, all the money will go to the top.  All the cryptocurrency will transfer to government and land owners via rent and small taxes in daily transactions.

"Over time the value of Bitcoin isn't guaranteed to go up, but the value of all government issued fiat currencies is guaranteed to go down." Roger Ver twitter.  Yes, and if the currency goes down bitcoin goes up with no transactions as long as users increase.

"It's great that Bitcoin is on such a bull run, but scalability and privacy issues still must be addressed." Roger Ver twitter.  It went up.  It will continue to go up.  It will hit $2000 then $5000.  Bitcoin for small transactions is dead.

"Miners (as a whole) will not harm the Bitcoin network, as to do so is to destroy their own profits" - @John_Blocke from Roger Ver twitter.  More miner costs (more hard disks and hardware) less miners.  Less miners, less security.

"The best time to buy bitcoin was eight years ago.  The second best time is now." Roger Ver twitter, then why change anything.

"When the cost of using something goes up, people use less of it. This means high bitcoin tx fees are causing fewer people to use bitcoin."  Roger Ver twitter. The value of the transaction can increase.  If the average transaction is 1 btc, then it is like 500 euro note at the grocery store.   Bigger notes small transactions, the 500 note does not hurt Euro economy.   The US economy is not hurt with the $100 bill.

Bitcoin has gotten where it is not really being used in commerce.  The value of bitcoin is unit of account, like tally sticks.
BTW, I have the greatest respect for Andresen and Ver.
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December 27, 2016, 07:57:07 AM
Last edit: December 27, 2016, 08:36:26 AM by franky1
 #3

seems all you care about is the bitcoin price. AKA FIAT

those that care about the bitcoin price are those that only care about running back to fiat.
it makes me laugh when those that only care about fiat price try to pretend that fiat is bad, yet in the back of your mind you are looking forward to returning back to fiat.

i did find one of your quotes and thoughts of the quote funny

Quote
"Miners (as a whole) will not harm the Bitcoin network, as to do so is to destroy their own profits" - @John_Blocke from Roger Ver twitter.  More miner costs (more hard disks and hardware) less miners.  Less miners, less security.

firstly. miners dont care about the blocksize. ASICS do NOT have a hard drive. all they do is receive a hash, add a nonce and rehash it... that is it. no hard drive, no worry of bloat, no worry of propagation times. just hash a hashed line of data. thats it.
its hash speed that impacts miners costs.. not data bloat. the more speed they have to compete against the more speed they need.
blockdata doesnt even come into the cost/speed.

as for suggesting bitcoin should not be used for commerce and just hoarded. then bitcoin loses one of its main utility.
imagine it this way. imagine their was an airbourne chemical that rendered gold useless for circuits/jewellery. and then people said, dont worry just hoard it, dont worry about how useless it has become, just hoard it.
the reality is that people will see it pointless to hoard something useless. they would move onto something else that has utility, and thus real demand.

wake up and smell the coffee.. killing off bitcoins utility as a currency and wanting to just hoard it for fiat purposes later on makes people think all you care about is fiat

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December 27, 2016, 08:46:03 AM
 #4

My problem with the likes of Roger Ver is that He doesn't care about the network but the price. I agreed the network need to scale but the way he is going about it is wrong.
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December 27, 2016, 08:58:49 AM
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My problem with the likes of Roger Ver is that He doesn't care about the network but the price. I agreed the network need to scale but the way he is going about it is wrong.

might be worth you checking how he wants to scale it. but not doing so by talking to core enthusiasts but instead doing some independant research, you will see that data bloat is of no concern to miners. and also nodes dont have an issue.

even core have said 4mb data bloat is acceptable.

all core want is to give an empty gesture to the community to bait them and switch users into using commercial services with added costs/penalties.
do try to do some independent research and realise it is core that want dominant control and for anything not core to f**k off.. not the other way round.

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December 27, 2016, 10:21:18 AM
 #6

It's interesting to see people's perception of the world economy. I can't see the Euro surviving for very long. Rumour has it that the ECB is buying US treasury bonds to keep it's value down. I guess this is to help German exports in the period up to the crash. It can't go on for ever. It's difficult to know what will happen to the US dollar. JP Morgan is accumulation physical silver while it depresses the price of virtual silver. Others are doing the same. I guess this is an indication that the dollar is at risk. The interesting time will come after the new fiscal year in the US. I think a lot of people have been holding off sales to realise their investment profits, as trump is promising to reduce tax rates.

How will this affect Bitcoin? I believe it will help to popularise it as a payment method. After all, that's why it was created.

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Xester
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December 27, 2016, 10:27:02 AM
 #7

Like the author said, bitcoins price going up is important. Yes, that is true. For us who are relying on online Jobs and signature campaigns the significant increase in bitcoins value has a positive effect on us. It means more profit on our hard work online, and more smiles to our families.

There are many issues on bitcoin pertaining to blocksize, hardfork and many more but for us small time users the most important thing is to earn from bitcoin and the price inflation is a blessing from heaven.
franky1
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December 27, 2016, 10:58:22 AM
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Like the author said, bitcoins price going up is important. Yes, that is true. For us who are relying on online Jobs and signature campaigns the significant increase in bitcoins value has a positive effect on us. It means more profit on our hard work online, and more smiles to our families.

There are many issues on bitcoin pertaining to blocksize, hardfork and many more but for us small time users the most important thing is to earn from bitcoin and the price inflation is a blessing from heaven.

whats more important is making bitcoin usable to buy things like bread, baked beans, toilet roll and rent.
then you wont care about fiat because your using bitcoin

if all you care about is a fiat price then you might aswell just go play with fiat and make a fiat wage

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
jacobmayes94
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December 27, 2016, 11:04:22 AM
 #9

This block size increase debate has cost me and my client TX fees while we are waiting for a solution. Some other clients we have switched to Litecoin already for lower TX fees. This is a real issue and I think the core developers do have a good solution in my book. Segwit is a good solution in my book.

I use it for daily transactions across world borders AND declare it in my taxes and you know what? no bank TX fees, no PayPal fees, it has revolutionized the way I run my business over the internet with my clients.
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December 27, 2016, 12:42:11 PM
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This block size increase debate has cost me and my client TX fees while we are waiting for a solution. Some other clients we have switched to Litecoin already for lower TX fees. This is a real issue and I think the core developers do have a good solution in my book. Segwit is a good solution in my book.

I use it for daily transactions across world borders AND declare it in my taxes and you know what? no bank TX fees, no PayPal fees, it has revolutionized the way I run my business over the internet with my clients.

you do know segwits "solution" is just a empty gesture, a one time poke.
all it will result in is 7tx/s realistically if 100% of people used segwit.

basically making 2009's best possibility into a more of an expectability. but even that is not a guarantee..
yea core will try to oversell their own best possibility, and expectability for segwit, but i hope people dont treat it as gospel
only expect about 4500tx if 100% of people use it. which is the same numbers being throwing around in 2009-2010

its just a one time gesture, that has taken over a year just to even have the code. yet will take a while to even have the chance to even be utilised.

imagine it this way.
imagine in 2010 the buffer limit was 0.2mb and data bloat was 0.19mb.. where a year was wasted before some consensus roadmap came to fruition. then a year to release the code, then months/year to activate it. bringing the actual utility upto 2013. where the gesture only allowed a one time bump to upto 0.4mb IF 100% of people used that code.
history can see that 0.4mb would not have been enough for 2013 even if 100% used the 'solution'

knowing that when it actually becomes possible to use, we as a community would already be begging for more again. because the delays have surpassed the utility.

we can already see that core are preparing the next debate that we again should not PROPERLY scale onchain via independent consensus of dynamic blocks because core want to spoonfeed and control the code and decisions. they are only caring about pushing people over to altcoins(sidechains) and commercial services (LN hubs).

they want to delay real growth to self forfil a prophecy they have. if they delay growth. they can then give an empty gesture to then have the community still begging. which they then reply that growth shouldnt happen because their empty gesture didnt shut people up.

i can see they will pile on the fake exponential growth charts of suggesting the community will be begging to double blocksizes every 2 months because their empty gesture only silenced the community for a couple months, thus falsely determining that growth should not occur, because they will produce wacky, outlandish numbers of exponential growth of bloat, based on their a situation they cause themselves

i can see they will pile on the fake narrative of how their corporate/bank side chains are the solution, and we should not consider changing main net because the demand for change cant happen in their spoonfeeding 2 year timescales they set themselves. because they deem the communities couple month silence vs 2 years spoonfeeding wont fit and thus unable to feed the community what they wont. so best to not bother

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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