Bitcoin 2.0

[biganth]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

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[tomwoods]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

How about an added layer? An index that computes the price in local fiat of anything you can buy and the price of the fiats themselves, with algorithms to weed out statistical anomalies, comodity price manipulations, etc.

Then you can pay whatever you want for a bitcoin, but you should know first that the suggested price in your fiat currency (taking into account this index) is: X.

[glendall]

^^^ I was thinking the exact same thing.  Wouldn't even need to be a new coin. Just if there was more software for stores to instantaneously calculate the rate of USD / BTC.

I would think Litecoin would be better for this because of its speed bonus. Where bitcoin could be used more for only larger purchases, and for holding.

I also think exchanges should have time delays before orders are processed. Like a set delay of 5 / 10 minutes that must pass before your order goes in.

Supporting the volume of trades that currency speculators work at , just by the second, is a MASSIVE amount of infrastructure.

It's impossible to know for sure. But what if last night there was no trading lag at all at mtgox wasn't overloaded. I think it is at least feasible that the price would have moved slower, which would have caused less panic selling, which in turn would have prevented this rapid collapse in USD value.

[biganth]

Something has to be done. I don't see how Bitcoin can survive once it is subject to manipulation at will. If Bitcoin doesn't adopt some kind of controls then the first alt coin to come up with solid protection will win.

[tomwoods]

Something has to be done. I don't see how Bitcoin can survive once it is subject to manipulation at will. If Bitcoin doesn't adopt some kind of controls then the first alt coin to come up with solid protection will win.

I don't think its survival is at stake, just its utility to people like me that want it to be able to save and trade with it, without developing an ulcer in the process.

[wachtwoord]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

No, just no. Repeat after me: Nothing is fucked up.

It isn't that relevant how much fiat currency people are willing to trade for BTC on a short term basis. If it is relevant to you you should sell your Bitcoins and stay away for 5-20 years. This is how it is intended to function, a free market around a commodity with a small capitalization and growing applicability.

Then again if you really think you are right and I am wrong feel free to fork Bitcoin and make a cryptocurrency in your image. I won't be using it.

[pretendo]

Nothing happened that has anything to do with inherent properties of bitcoin. It was just human psychology and hysteria trumping rational thinking, as well as failures of exchanges. You are thinking irrationally right now and acting hysterical.

[WiseOldOwl]

Nothing is wrong,

The whole bitcoin exchange economy is in its infancy, and mtgox is just the biggest kid right now.
Once there are a bunch of exchanges of the same caliber it wont matter if one has a problem.

[Bitmeat]

It seems fine the way it is, the market just needs more liquidity so that people will use it as a currency, and not be tempted to hoard it as a commodity.

Basically what you're suggesting is the opposite of what Bitcoin stands for. Hopefully this market correction leads to a nice stable price at $15-20 for months on end, then we might start to see some more adoption.

[Come-from-Beyond]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Already launched 12 days ago. Google "Bytecoin".

[biganth]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

If there is no stability in the value of a bitcoin how can you expect it to be adopted? If you sell me something today and I pay you with bitcoins on what basis are you calculating how much coins I should pay you? Do you just pick a number out of thin air? No, you peg it to a Fiat currency and if those bitcoins are worth a 1/4 of their value a day later wouldn't you be a bit pissed? How can bitcoin be widely adopted in that kind of environment?

[Mike Christ]

No no no no no.  Do not mess with Bitcoin to accommodate fiat.

That's like saying to the banksters, "You win.  We'll play."

The markets are def being manipulated, but tying Bitcoin with fiat is a baaaad idea.  Then you just manipulate fiat and BTC will follow along.

Someone mentioned tying Bitcoin (colored coin?) to gold; I still don't think that's a good idea.  Bitcoin should be its own thing.

[wachtwoord]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

I don't say it wasn't manipulated. I simply could not care less.

[Bitmeat]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

Of course the market was manipulated. Whether it was by government, wall st or just some early adopters or scammers propping up the price before cashing out we'll probably never know. It's probably got a few more days/weeks before it starts to stabilize, probably back below where we were before all this madness began this year.

Hopefully this will at least make people stop trying to tie the success of bitcoin to the price. Newsflash: Bitcoin is better with a billion transactions per day at 10 $USD than a few thousand @ $250

[FreddyFender]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Already launched 12 days ago. Google "Bytecoin".

BryanMills/Maria was always heavily trolled on Bitcoin because of his early success mining. He is following a vision laid down by Satoshi concerning multiple Clients/Cryptocurrency/Chains/BitX Apps.
Get to work ya slackies!  

FF

[biganth]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

I don't say it wasn't manipulated. I simply could not care less.

Why the hell are you on this forum then?

[wachtwoord]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

I don't say it wasn't manipulated. I simply could not care less.

Why the hell are you on this forum then?

Because of Bitcoin. How about you?

[glendall]

Trying to have a cryptography-based currency without manipulation is impossible. Can't happen.

It's like calling yourself a conservative anarchist.

Not to say it is not a really important topic.  But I think it's silly to say that manipulation is somehow morally wrong.  The morality of it shouldn't be figured into the equations of how it functions. 

[biganth]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

I don't say it wasn't manipulated. I simply could not care less.

Why the hell are you on this forum then?

Because of Bitcoin. How about you?

Yeah, ok, end of pointless back n forth.

[r.willis]

Come on people, what's wrong? Little correction and you run scared? Bought at 266, sold at 55 and crying "we are manipulated"? You are, by your greed and greed of the likes of you.
It's free market. Lag and trading stop are not good, but we will learn from this, new exchanges will pop up and people will diversify their actives. I see era of P2P trading coming.

[biganth]

Come on people, what's wrong? Little correction and you run scared? Bought at 266, sold at 55 and crying "we are manipulated"? You are, by your greed and greed of the likes of you.
It's free market. Lag and trading stop are not good, but we will learn from this, new exchanges will pop up and people will diversify their actives. I see era of P2P trading coming.

I'm a noob, didn't have anything invested so this is not a rant because I lost $ or bitcoins. Just genuinely concerned.

[BitDreams]

It is only Friday night before the big game on Sunday.

[christop]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Already launched 12 days ago. Google "Bytecoin".

Bytecoin is fundamentally the same as Bitcoin. The only differences are the address format (to avoid confusion with Bitcoin addresses) and the block chain. Its conversion rate is not fundamentally fixed to any other currency or commodity, and if it ever sees adoption anywhere near Bitcoin's or another alternative cryptocurrency's level of adoption, exchanges will start to support it.

Troll harder, please.

[r.willis]

biganth, what exactly are your concerns?

[zeroday]

Oh yes, let's create FRS for bitcoin! 

[Elwar]

Maybe we could have a new Bitcoin that allows a Bitcoin committee that determines how many bitcoins are produced, perhaps have them answerable to the government so that they are kept in check. They can stimulate the economy with more bitcoins if the economy slows down and slow it down if things are going too quickly. Maybe they can even have a charter to keep unemployment down, the economy moving and inflation low.

This committee would consist of the presidents of bitcoin holding companies that are able to loan out BTC based on a committee determined interest rate. They can even print out cold storage prinouts of the bitcoins that can be a sort of "note" exchangeable for a bitcoin which can be used anywhere you go.

Instead of Bitcoin we could just call these notes "Federal Reserve Notes" to make it sound official, like it is a government entity.

It just may catch on.

[biganth]

Maybe we could have a new Bitcoin that allows a Bitcoin committee that determines how many bitcoins are produced, perhaps have them answerable to the government so that they are kept in check. They can stimulate the economy with more bitcoins if the economy slows down and slow it down if things are going too quickly. Maybe they can even have a charter to keep unemployment down, the economy moving and inflation low.

This committee would consist of the presidents of bitcoin holding companies that are able to loan out BTC based on a committee determined interest rate. They can even print out cold storage prinouts of the bitcoins that can be a sort of "note" exchangeable for a bitcoin which can be used anywhere you go.

Instead of Bitcoin we could just call these notes "Federal Reserve Notes" to make it sound official, like it is a government entity.

It just may catch on.

Or maybe we can just let it be manipulated at will until it's dead.

[cypherdoc]

nothing needs to change. 

Bitcoin is destined for greatness no matter what.

[Elwar]

Maybe we could have a new Bitcoin that allows a Bitcoin committee that determines how many bitcoins are produced, perhaps have them answerable to the government so that they are kept in check. They can stimulate the economy with more bitcoins if the economy slows down and slow it down if things are going too quickly. Maybe they can even have a charter to keep unemployment down, the economy moving and inflation low.

This committee would consist of the presidents of bitcoin holding companies that are able to loan out BTC based on a committee determined interest rate. They can even print out cold storage prinouts of the bitcoins that can be a sort of "note" exchangeable for a bitcoin which can be used anywhere you go.

Instead of Bitcoin we could just call these notes "Federal Reserve Notes" to make it sound official, like it is a government entity.

It just may catch on.

Or maybe we can just let it be manipulated at will until it's dead.

Google stock would be all over the place if the price was being determined by kids using their dad's credit card to buy and sell stocks.

It will level out when we use it as a currency and leave the investing to the investors.

[biganth]

It will level out when we use it as a currency and leave the investing to the investors.

If you can't determine it's worth how do you start using it as currency?

[ZephramC]

Perhaps we should unlearn assessing worth in fiat currency :-].

[Elwar]

If you can't determine it's worth how do you start using it as currency?

Like I do every day. Just pay with Bitcoins instead of the local currency.

[Rassah]

I like how every time something bad happens, we have newbies come in, thinking they are smarted than Satoshi, or the 4 years of collective experience of a few brilliant developers.

Hint: If you have a seemingly obvious and "brilliant" idea, chances are it has already been thought of, debated, developed into an alt coin, and mine-attacked by Luke-jr into oblivion  

EDIT: no one is smarter than Satoshi   

[biganth]

If you can't determine it's worth how do you start using it as currency?

Like I do every day. Just pay with Bitcoins instead of the local currency.

So do you & the seller pick a number out of thin air and say ok 5 BTC or do you consider the value of the item in Fiat?

[biganth]

I like how every time something bad happens, we have newbies come in, thinking they are smarted than Satoshi, or the 4 years of collective experience of a few brilliant developers.

Hint: If you have a seemingly obvious and "brilliant" idea, chances are it has already been thought of, debated, developed into an alt coin, and mine-attacked by Luke-jr into oblivion 

Hint, have you ever met a developer that developed a solid piece of software that never had a bug or needed to be re-tooled because they "didn't think of that"? Gimme a break.

[Elwar]

If you can't determine it's worth how do you start using it as currency?

Like I do every day. Just pay with Bitcoins instead of the local currency.

So do you & the seller pick a number out of thin air and say ok 5 BTC or do you consider the value of the item in Fiat?

Of the past 3 exchanges, one of them we both agreed on 1 bitcoin no matter the price, one we decided on the dollar equivalent on the day of delivery and the third is my hosting service which charges $66/month which I pay in the equivalent amount of BTC.

[Stylus]

Come on people, what's wrong?... It's free market.

Really? The exchange that controls 80% of Bitcoin trading can declare a "market cooldown" period whenever it wants for as long as it wants, and you call that a free market?

I don't.

[ZephramC]

Come on people, what's wrong?... It's free market.

Really? The exchange that controls 80% of Bitcoin trading can declare a "market cooldown" period whenever it wants for as long as it wants, and you call that a free market?

I don't.

As long as this exchange is in this 80% position by free choice of the people and not by some government direction/regulation then yes, it is called a free market.

[Rassah]

I like how every time something bad happens, we have newbies come in, thinking they are smarted than Satoshi, or the 4 years of collective experience of a few brilliant developers.

Hint: If you have a seemingly obvious and "brilliant" idea, chances are it has already been thought of, debated, developed into an alt coin, and mine-attacked by Luke-jr into oblivion  

Hint, have you ever met a developer that developed a solid piece of software that never had a bug or needed to be re-tooled because they "didn't think of that"? Gimme a break.

As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.

[biganth]

EDIT: no one is smarter than Satoshi   

Does that Koolaid come in multiple flavors?

[Rassah]

EDIT: no one is smarter than Satoshi   

Does that Koolaid come in multiple flavors?

Hahahaha, no really. Go read his papers and some of the reviews by top security experts back from the 2010/2011's. I'm personally too dumb to know better, but I trust their opinions on this matter.

[Wuji]

If Bitcoin is desired by the world for what it was designed to be, digital currency, then the price will become stable.  They don't need to start putting controls on it like they have with other currency.  They need to let the free market play out.  If it is needed it will continue to gain widespread adoption and so be it.

A fixed conversion rate means that it will be subject and under the control of a government rather than the free will of people.  This is not what Bitcoin is about.  We can already buy stuff with currency so, this kind of makes Bitcoin pointless and takes away its usefulness should the worst happen with any economy it might be tied to.

[biganth]

As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.

I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable?

[marcus_of_augustus]

warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!

...  "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,

lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.

[biganth]

warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!

...  "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,

lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.

Asshat discussion is that way ->

[Rassah]

As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.

I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable?

Easy. Size of total market adoption. If more people adopt Bitcoin, the value of each coin goes up, as does the total market cap. Let's say Bitcoin is worth $20,000 in 10 years. What % is a drop of $150 from $20,000 compared to % of $150 from $260?

Just wait basically

[Alonzo Ewing]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Fixed conversion rate means that the new coin would be defined as X amount of dollars.  As the Fed inflates the value of the dollar, so too would it inflate the value of the new coin.

[biganth]

Easy. Size of total market adoption.

Seems like a conundrum, how does this market adoption happen if the value doesn't stabilize?

[mitty]

I find it so amusing that lots of forum users seem to be libertarian, pro-decentralization, pro-free market, anti-government backed currencies, etc, etc while the value of bitcoin in their local (government backed) currency continues to rise, and immediately start crying for control and regulation as soon as the fiat value of bitcoin drops.  Use a govenment backed currency if you want security and regulation; there's no point of bitcoin if bitcoin is going to become another monetary system controlled by a trusted group of people.  There are already plenty of successful currencies that are exactly this, such as the US Dollar, the Euro, Yen, GBP, etc.

You can't honestly watch the exchange rate of BTC go from $20 to $200 in a couple of months without ever wondering if it can do the reverse, can you?

There's a reason the majority of people like government-backed, regulated currencies, and that reason is to protect against what just happened to the value of bitcoin.  

You can have freedom or you can have security, and you have to accept great risk with the chance of great reward.

[marcus_of_augustus]

warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!

...  "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,

lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.

Asshat discussion is that way ->

Ah I disagree, the asshat discussion is right here ... you started it. You haven't got a clue what you are talking about ....

... but something must be done, I tell you!

[biganth]

Ah I disagree, the asshat discussion is right here ... you started it. You haven't got a clue what you are talking about ....

... but something must be done, I tell you!

Yes, no clue and I grovel at your feet oh mighty troll.

[peacefulmind]

Is this a troll thread?  It has to be right?

People here begging for protections and restrictions? Really?

[Rassah]

Easy. Size of total market adoption.

Seems like a conundrum, how does this market adoption happen if the value doesn't stabilize?

Same way it happened when it pushed Bitcoin from $0.01 to $100. I.e. just let the adoption slowly increase and the market work itself out. No need for any controllers to step in.

[Geddi]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

No, just no. Repeat after me: Nothing is fucked up.

Yes, please yes. We need a fixed rate to stop this "postage stamp collecting"

[virtualmaster]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Yes we need. I posted already a proposition.
Cryptodollar and Cryptoeuro. They should be like Liberty Reserve for USD and EUR just decentralized and based on bitcoin technology.

[Rassah]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Yes we need. I posted already a proposition.
Cryptodollar and Cryptoeuro. They should be like Liberty Reserve for USD and EUR just decentralized and based on bitcoin technology.

1) Who will mine it with enough resources to secure it?
2) Who will store and send/receive dollars and euros when people exchange them for this?
3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro?
4) Who will prevent this single point of failure that's holding the cash from simply disappearing?
5) Who will prevent this single point of failure from issuing CryptoX that's not actually backed by any dollars/euros, just so they couldgive themselves more money, and debase the value of CryptoX through inflation in the process?


Besides, I think you just described a bank, "but with Bitcoin technology." The two aren't compatible.

[Geddi]

3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro?

If anyone can solve that, bitcoin will finally be bitcoin.

[tomwoods]

1) Who will mine it with enough resources to secure it?
2) Who will store and send/receive dollars and euros when people exchange them for this?
3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro?
4) Who will prevent this single point of failure that's holding the cash from simply disappearing?
5) Who will prevent this single point of failure from issuing CryptoX that's not actually backed by any dollars/euros, just so they couldgive themselves more money, and debase the value of CryptoX through inflation in the process?

So what of a p2p generated composite Consumer Price Index to help determine the real value of a bitcoin or equivalent?

Maybe its best if some other crypto currency determine their value that way. Sad to say that having bitcoins today feels like I'm playing stock or casino. Doesn't help me build commerce or save assets.

[Rassah]

So what of a p2p generated composite Consumer Price Index to help determine the real value of a bitcoin or equivalent?

Nice idea. How would you implement it, while keeping it P2P, and securing it from attacks from someone using hugely distorted prices?

[jubalix]

No no no no no.  Do not mess with Bitcoin to accommodate fiat.

That's like saying to the banksters, "You win.  We'll play."

The markets are def being manipulated, but tying Bitcoin with fiat is a baaaad idea.  Then you just manipulate fiat and BTC will follow along.

Someone mentioned tying Bitcoin (colored coin?) to gold; I still don't think that's a good idea.  Bitcoin should be its own thing.

this x 10

[Francesco]

As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.

I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable?

Point is, what's the value of 5 btc? ...why should it be expressed in dollars?

We will have succeded when we can say that 5 btc is the value of that computer -and that that computer would be really hard to price in dollars, due to the high volatility of the dollar respective to btc.

[wachtwoord]

I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable?

With patience.

[AlgoSwan]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency is the safest way to remove bitcoin manipulators. As long as you allow trading fiat money to BTC, you simply invite all sharks, wolves into a dinner with all lambs perfectly located. Just remove the fiat from all BTC ecosystem, problem disappears almost instantly.

[Rawted]

Nothing happened that has anything to do with inherent properties of bitcoin. It was just human psychology and hysteria trumping rational thinking, as well as failures of exchanges. You are thinking irrationally right now and acting hysterical.

100% this. BTC is not to blame here. Plus it's still way up for the year, after multiple crashes.

[christop]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency is the safest way to remove bitcoin manipulators. As long as you allow trading fiat money to BTC, you simply invite all sharks, wolves into a dinner with all lambs perfectly located. Just remove the fiat from all BTC ecosystem, problem disappears almost instantly.

So you want regulation? Who will enforce such a ban?

[Rassah]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency is the safest way to remove bitcoin manipulators. As long as you allow trading fiat money to BTC, you simply invite all sharks, wolves into a dinner with all lambs perfectly located. Just remove the fiat from all BTC ecosystem, problem disappears almost instantly.

LOL! Come here and let me tell you about this thing called "Free Market" and "Decentralized"...

[alex_fun]

Fixed rate p2p coins are possible, depends what people want.

More explanation here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172549 

[alex_fun]

What is free market? Say someone with tons of asics going to sell coins he mines daily for 70 usd for whatever crazy reason, is that free market for you? Free seems freedom of each person to act as they like. Say someone buys juice and give it to you to drink or throws it in your face Those are both free actions

[Rassah]

What is free market? Say someone with tons of asics going to sell coins he mines daily for 70 usd for whatever crazy reason, is that free market for you?

Someone selling a max of 1,800 coins daily, on a market that trades 750,000 coins daily?

[AlgoSwan]

Banning all fiat money from BTC trading can't be called as regulation. It is prevention. I'm not against trading. I very much like to trade my BTC's with NMC, LTC, or even PPC, but not with fiat. In other words, I don't want to trade my hard-earned (mined) BTC's with paper. Computers? Sure, I like them a lot and can trade my BTC's with computers or ASICs or a medical device or some tangible stuff I need. Isn't that the main/core philosophy of satoshi?

[Rassah]

Banning all fiat money from BTC trading can't be called as regulation. It is prevention. I'm not against trading. I very much like to trade my BTC's with NMC, LTC, or even PPC, but not with fiat. In other words, I don't want to trade my hard-earned (mined) BTC's with paper. Computers? Sure, I like them a lot and can trade my BTC's with computers or ASICs or a medical device or some tangible stuff I need. Isn't that the main/core philosophy of satoshi?

So... don't trade with fiat? How would others trading affect you if you don't trade? And if it does, how will you prevent others from trading their own coins for fiat? The core philosophy of Satoshi was currency that can not be prevented from doing whatever you want with it. Including panic selling it on the market.

[Luckybit]

It seems fine the way it is, the market just needs more liquidity so that people will use it as a currency, and not be tempted to hoard it as a commodity.

Basically what you're suggesting is the opposite of what Bitcoin stands for. Hopefully this market correction leads to a nice stable price at $15-20 for months on end, then we might start to see some more adoption.

More liquidity wont stop people from saving. But if people can earn Bitcoin then they'll be more likely to spend Bitcoin. So who is offering Bitcoin jobs?

[Walter Rothbard]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency

You know that banning stuff is evil, right?

You are welcome to make a personal decision not to exchange BTC for certain things, and to exhort others to make the same decision.  Personally, I don't spend Coin on gambling, nor on mind altering substances, and I would encourage other people to make the same personal decision.  But it would be an immoral act for me to try to actually restrain them from doing so.  Trying to ban people from gambling, using mind altering substances, or exchanging Coin for fiat would be an act far, far more evil than "market manipulation."

Now, I am not here to force my morality on you, but can you see that you are proposing to force your morality on other people?  Give up the use of force!  Those who live by force will justly suffer when force is used against them.

[Walter Rothbard]

Lots and lots of economics education needed.  Here are two good reads:

http://mises.org/money.asp
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141245.0

[Walter Rothbard]

Banning all fiat money from BTC trading can't be called as regulation. It is prevention.

It's a complete violation of private property and mutually consensual exchange.  From what I understand, that's a complete violation of all Satoshi stood for.

Anyway, regarding my BTC and all other Coin, come and take them.

[Walter Rothbard]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance."

[Walter Rothbard]

Maybe we could have a new Bitcoin that allows a Bitcoin committee that determines how many bitcoins are produced, perhaps have them answerable to the government so that they are kept in check. They can stimulate the economy with more bitcoins if the economy slows down and slow it down if things are going too quickly. Maybe they can even have a charter to keep unemployment down, the economy moving and inflation low.

This committee would consist of the presidents of bitcoin holding companies that are able to loan out BTC based on a committee determined interest rate. They can even print out cold storage prinouts of the bitcoins that can be a sort of "note" exchangeable for a bitcoin which can be used anywhere you go.

Instead of Bitcoin we could just call these notes "Federal Reserve Notes" to make it sound official, like it is a government entity.

It just may catch on.

Or maybe we can just let it be manipulated at will until it's dead.

Bitcoin is in no danger of dying.

[wachtwoord]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate

"It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a 'dismal science.' But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."

[Walter Rothbard]

I have a proposal: go develop a currency which can't be exchanged for fiat or can't be manipulated, or whatever.  You want it, you make it.

I'll offer to exchange it on my exchange.

[Walter Rothbard]

Come on people, what's wrong?... It's free market.

Really? The exchange that controls 80% of Bitcoin trading can declare a "market cooldown" period whenever it wants for as long as it wants, and you call that a free market?

I don't.

As long as this exchange is in this 80% position by free choice of the people and not by some government direction/regulation then yes, it is called a free market.

Yes!

I've only exchanged on MtGox twice, ever.

But while MtGox was closed, I was buying and selling Bitcoin and altcoins, elsewhere.

[alex_fun]

Walter well what are you comments on the following trend

Any coin that starts with diff 1, goes in diff so less coins per hash - miners want price hike to cover costs and make cash, then random people who dont know much about how crypto work can see coins rising and buying into them, then more buy then crash and people say wtf  and many move to coin nr 2,3,4

[alex_fun]

Also later adopters have to see if they are happy to buy coin at say 100 usd thus passing alot of their cash to someone who mined coins at diff 1,4 at far lesser cost or simply buy cheaper alt that also anon, p2p and so on. However if rate is fixed then coin can start at diff that is say cost of equipment plus say 10% profit from mining at low diff. The diff then is unlikely to rise alot since fix rate wont cover the cost. Then miners who wants to make cash are to advertise coin aka spreading its transactional potential and earning money in transactional fees

[alexh]

Fixed rate p2p coins are the solution IMO.

[AlgoSwan]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency

You know that banning stuff is evil, right?

You are welcome to make a personal decision not to exchange BTC for certain things, and to exhort others to make the same decision.  Personally, I don't spend Coin on gambling, nor on mind altering substances, and I would encourage other people to make the same personal decision.  But it would be an immoral act for me to try to actually restrain them from doing so.  Trying to ban people from gambling, using mind altering substances, or exchanging Coin for fiat would be an act far, far more evil than "market manipulation."

Now, I am not here to force my morality on you, but can you see that you are proposing to force your morality on other people?  Give up the use of force!  Those who live by force will justly suffer when force is used against them.

I totally agree with you about freedom. All I'm saying is trading hard-earned (mined) BTCs with any fiat money opens a very-wide door to market manipulators, sharks, wolves, whatever you want to call them it is. And market manipulation is their profession, they're doing this with great expertise. We the BTC community looks like a cooked lambs for them. They just enter the dining room, eating us slowly. In other words, they don't need to raid physically any unregulated BTC exchange offices and grab all the hard-earned (mined) BTCs of miners. Manipulation does this very easily. Your argument gives total freedom to these manipulators. Blaming BTC miners for their greed is non-sense at all. We have a perfect light for darkness: financial history of the last century, especially last 10 years gives us a brief knowledge about manipulation, greed, scam on financial institutions, financial regulations, and whatever the fancy terminology start with financial....

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

[Operatr]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Already launched 12 days ago. Google "Bytecoin".

Bytecoin is a carbon copy of Bitcoin, which like most I have no idea why it exists. I get it if the new crypto is different somehow or is designed with a certain role to fill, but why a clone? Help Bitcoin instead.

[christop]

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

The manipulators are stealing bitcoins from the miners, who have chosen to sell their bitcoins on an exchange at an agreed-upon rate? Should we ban silver market speculators from trading in fiat too? They're crashing the price of silver all the time! (Of course, the price of silver, like bitcoin, has been in an upward trend in the long run, despite these short-term "crashes".)

You still haven't answered the key question about this type of regulation: who will enforce it?

[alex_fun]

Its very easy to create new coin where 10% of coins are held for 1 week to stabilize rate.  Miners who try to mine with some diff algo simply find their blocks rejected same as if someone tries to mine btc with their own funky settings The 51% attack - initially miners can be given some auth to mine, auth linked to forum name here. If someone goes awol and try to do 51% he is out Eventually hashpower can be large enough, especially when low cost scrypt frga are developed Also some large pools could join it who knows

[Walter Rothbard]

=Your argument gives total freedom to these manipulators.

Freedom is moral, taking away freedom is immoral.

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

I hate it when people redefine "stealing."

If you have a nugget of iron, and I take it from you without your consent, that's stealing.

If you have a nugget of iron and are offering it for sale for 10.0 BTC, and I find an equivalent nugget of iron and offer it for sale for 5.0 BTC, and now nobody will pay you 10.0 BTC for your nugget, but will only pay you 5.0 BTC, I haven't "stolen" anything from you, even though you have suffered a loss of value.

Just because somebody's actions result in a loss of value for your assets, that does not mean anybody has "stolen" anything.  Every day, people outcompete other people and the value of specific assets decline.  That is not stealing.  If I buy a bunch of stuff at certain times and sell a bunch of stuff at certain times, and it affects the market value of your stuff, that doesn't mean I'm a thief!

[AlgoSwan]

I hate it when people redefine "stealing."

If you have a nugget of iron, and I take it from you without your consent, that's stealing.

If you have a nugget of iron and are offering it for sale for 10.0 BTC, and I find an equivalent nugget of iron and offer it for sale for 5.0 BTC, and now nobody will pay you 10.0 BTC for your nugget, but will only pay you 5.0 BTC, I haven't "stolen" anything from you, even though you have suffered a loss of value.

Just because somebody's actions result in a loss of value for your assets, that does not mean anybody has "stolen" anything.  Every day, people outcompete other people and the value of specific assets decline.  That is not stealing.  If I buy a bunch of stuff at certain times and sell a bunch of stuff at certain times, and it affects the market value of your stuff, that doesn't mean I'm a thief!

You're playing with the words here. You perfectly describe a healthy market (unregulated and manipulation free market). And with this condition (fair market practice), you're totally right about "stealing" word is non-sense at all. However if you add bad guys (manipulators with fiat) to any healthy market, the word "stealing" becomes available to these operations. Have you ever heard JPM's paper short selling on silver (AG)? It is called manipulation by all means. How can you short more than total world silver? (I mean total world silver as un-mined and mined silver together) With paper selling (short one) via futures market it is possible. In this way you can control everything and its prices. Don't believe me, it is just another conspiracy theory. Yeah,,, just google it!

[Rassah]

Fixed rate p2p coins are the solution IMO.

Fixed rate p2p coins are an idea. A detailed method to actually implement that idea, in a way that will prevent counterfeiting, double-spending, spamming, DoSing, and price manipulating is a hypothetical solution. It actually working better once tested is a solution.

[AlgoSwan]

Fixed rate p2p coins is not the best option to prevent bad trading practices. We all know who is manipulating the market. And we also know how they do it. All we have to do is accept tangible things for our BTCs. It is like old bartering practices. We all know how this fiat came to the town. Now this is the only game in town. It is ruining every good idea no matter how sophisticated your new cryptocurrency, fiat will destroy it. This so called 21 million BTC's will be owned by paper, maybe not now, but it is an easy job for them anytime. But they don't want it now. I think they love this cryptocurrency innovation. Most probably they support it first, maybe still they are supporting it. Why? Simple: it destroys the faith to gold and other precious metals and it is helping to make a simulation to show the gold is not precious at all. Buffet recently joining the team with owning GS and telling gold is not safe at all. It is no coincidence that Dow Jones and SP500 made all time highs with BTC. All things connected each other except gold. Me? I'm not a gold bug, never. Just an average Joe who is reading too much about financial history and bad guys. And I know reading is very different from living, especially your mother tongue is not english at all. By the way, I like this community. Most of people here are very friendly, innovative and of course very smart.

[Walter Rothbard]

Fixed rate to what?  A fiat currency?  That's not exactly "fixed."

If you want mintchip, you know where to find it.

[krncoolwater]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

If there is no stability in the value of a bitcoin how can you expect it to be adopted? If you sell me something today and I pay you with bitcoins on what basis are you calculating how much coins I should pay you? Do you just pick a number out of thin air? No, you peg it to a Fiat currency and if those bitcoins are worth a 1/4 of their value a day later wouldn't you be a bit pissed? How can bitcoin be widely adopted in that kind of environment?

I have to disagree to peg it to a fiat currency. Never has in history the world over involved massively in all fiat currency and now much countries are debasing their currency in a mutually exclusive suicidal attempt to increase their countries respective exports. There are serious consequences to debasing one countries currency.  The Federal Reserve Note since 1913 has lost 96%+ of its value as its debt has increased 5,000 times.  Hows the hope and change thing working out now? Peg it to a basket of hard assets and by God do not let the CFTC regulate it; like they do to the price of Gold/Oil.  Starve the beast...