Rassah
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Merit: 1035
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April 12, 2013, 12:51:36 AM |
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EDIT: no one is smarter than Satoshi  Does that Koolaid come in multiple flavors? Hahahaha, no really. Go read his papers and some of the reviews by top security experts back from the 2010/2011's. I'm personally too dumb to know better, but I trust their opinions on this matter. |
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"Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally
controlled
networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem
to be holding their own." -- Satoshi
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Wuji
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April 12, 2013, 12:52:18 AM |
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If Bitcoin is desired by the world for what it was designed to be, digital currency, then the price will become stable. They don't need to start putting controls on it like they have with other currency. They need to let the free market play out. If it is needed it will continue to gain widespread adoption and so be it.
A fixed conversion rate means that it will be subject and under the control of a government rather than the free will of people. This is not what Bitcoin is about. We can already buy stuff with currency so, this kind of makes Bitcoin pointless and takes away its usefulness should the worst happen with any economy it might be tied to.
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biganth (OP)
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April 12, 2013, 12:55:43 AM |
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As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.
I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable? |
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marcus_of_augustus
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Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
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April 12, 2013, 12:59:03 AM |
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warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!
... "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,
lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.
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biganth (OP)
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April 12, 2013, 01:00:47 AM |
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warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!
... "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,
lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.
Asshat discussion is that way -> |
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Rassah
Legendary
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Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
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April 12, 2013, 01:02:36 AM |
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As a matter of fact! ... No. But only because I've never met Satoshi. But what you are describing is kinda what he did. Read the history of security experts and hackers thinking up of ways to attack his Bitcoin code, going, "AHA!" when they think of something, then go look at the Bitcoin code, only to see that this was thought of and specifically fixed/compensated for. It's actually really creepy, and is the reason there's a running joke on the forums that Satoshi was a computer AI or something. A lot of the bug fixes or retools were mostly some minor oversights or new features on top of the base code, some of which were actually proposed by Satoshi as well, but just never implemented in code. No one has yet been able to improve on the underlying idea itself though (and many have tried) .
Not to say the developers haven't done a massively impressive job of cleaning, streamlining, and expanding the system.
I'm not doubting he built a solid system and thought of every angle and I can understand the view of not controlling the circulation but how do we get to the point where we know 5 btc is a good price for a laptop when the value of btc is totally unpredictable? Easy. Size of total market adoption. If more people adopt Bitcoin, the value of each coin goes up, as does the total market cap. Let's say Bitcoin is worth $20,000 in 10 years. What % is a drop of $150 from $20,000 compared to % of $150 from $260? Just wait basically |
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Alonzo Ewing
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Merit: 1001
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April 12, 2013, 01:05:38 AM |
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It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?
Fixed conversion rate means that the new coin would be defined as X amount of dollars. As the Fed inflates the value of the dollar, so too would it inflate the value of the new coin. |
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biganth (OP)
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April 12, 2013, 01:06:36 AM |
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Easy. Size of total market adoption.
Seems like a conundrum, how does this market adoption happen if the value doesn't stabilize? |
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mitty
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April 12, 2013, 01:14:16 AM
Last edit: April 12, 2013, 01:26:01 AM by mitty |
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I find it so amusing that lots of forum users seem to be libertarian, pro-decentralization, pro-free market, anti-government backed currencies, etc, etc while the value of bitcoin in their local (government backed) currency continues to rise, and immediately start crying for control and regulation as soon as the fiat value of bitcoin drops. Use a govenment backed currency if you want security and regulation; there's no point of bitcoin if bitcoin is going to become another monetary system controlled by a trusted group of people. There are already plenty of successful currencies that are exactly this, such as the US Dollar, the Euro, Yen, GBP, etc.
You can't honestly watch the exchange rate of BTC go from $20 to $200 in a couple of months without ever wondering if it can do the reverse, can you?
There's a reason the majority of people like government-backed, regulated currencies, and that reason is to protect against what just happened to the value of bitcoin.
You can have freedom or you can have security, and you have to accept great risk with the chance of great reward.
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marcus_of_augustus
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Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
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April 12, 2013, 01:15:39 AM |
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warning!!!warning!!!warning!!!
... "something has to be done" brigade have shown up,
lights flashing, emergency sirens blaring, something must be done, I tell you.
Asshat discussion is that way -> Ah I disagree, the asshat discussion is right here ... you started it. You haven't got a clue what you are talking about .... ... but something must be done, I tell you! |
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biganth (OP)
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April 12, 2013, 01:18:02 AM |
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Ah I disagree, the asshat discussion is right here ... you started it. You haven't got a clue what you are talking about ....
... but something must be done, I tell you!
Yes, no clue and I grovel at your feet oh mighty troll. |
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peacefulmind
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April 12, 2013, 01:43:20 AM |
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Is this a troll thread? It has to be right?
People here begging for protections and restrictions? Really?
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"I think you are to hung up on this notion about 'pre-mining' being a No-No." - from journeys into the dark depths of the alt coin forum.... |
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Rassah
Legendary
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Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
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April 12, 2013, 02:00:58 AM |
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Easy. Size of total market adoption.
Seems like a conundrum, how does this market adoption happen if the value doesn't stabilize? Same way it happened when it pushed Bitcoin from $0.01 to $100. I.e. just let the adoption slowly increase and the market work itself out. No need for any controllers to step in. |
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Geddi
Member
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Activity: 98
Merit: 10
It's the muffins that must be stopped.
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April 12, 2013, 08:13:25 AM |
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It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?
No, just no. Repeat after me: Nothing is fucked up. Yes, please yes. We need a fixed rate to stop this "postage stamp collecting" |
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virtualmaster
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April 12, 2013, 08:38:53 AM |
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It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?
Yes we need. I posted already a proposition. Cryptodollar and Cryptoeuro. They should be like Liberty Reserve for USD and EUR just decentralized and based on bitcoin technology. |
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Rassah
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April 12, 2013, 12:29:07 PM |
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It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?
Yes we need. I posted already a proposition. Cryptodollar and Cryptoeuro. They should be like Liberty Reserve for USD and EUR just decentralized and based on bitcoin technology. 1) Who will mine it with enough resources to secure it? 2) Who will store and send/receive dollars and euros when people exchange them for this? 3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro? 4) Who will prevent this single point of failure that's holding the cash from simply disappearing? 5) Who will prevent this single point of failure from issuing CryptoX that's not actually backed by any dollars/euros, just so they couldgive themselves more money, and debase the value of CryptoX through inflation in the process? Besides, I think you just described a bank, "but with Bitcoin technology." The two aren't compatible. |
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Geddi
Member
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Activity: 98
Merit: 10
It's the muffins that must be stopped.
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April 12, 2013, 12:33:58 PM
Last edit: April 12, 2013, 04:32:27 PM by Geddi |
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3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro?
If anyone can solve that, bitcoin will finally be bitcoin. |
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tomwoods
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April 12, 2013, 02:01:04 PM |
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1) Who will mine it with enough resources to secure it?
2) Who will store and send/receive dollars and euros when people exchange them for this?
3) Who will control the issuance of this currency to make sure there's always exactly one CryptoX for each dollar/euro?
4) Who will prevent this single point of failure that's holding the cash from simply disappearing?
5) Who will prevent this single point of failure from issuing CryptoX that's not actually backed by any dollars/euros, just so they couldgive themselves more money, and debase the value of CryptoX through inflation in the process?
So what of a p2p generated composite Consumer Price Index to help determine the real value of a bitcoin or equivalent? Maybe its best if some other crypto currency determine their value that way. Sad to say that having bitcoins today feels like I'm playing stock or casino. Doesn't help me build commerce or save assets. |
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Rassah
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April 12, 2013, 04:38:05 PM |
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So what of a p2p generated composite Consumer Price Index to help determine the real value of a bitcoin or equivalent?
Nice idea. How would you implement it, while keeping it P2P, and securing it from attacks from someone using hugely distorted prices? |
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jubalix
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April 12, 2013, 04:42:24 PM |
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No no no no no. Do not mess with Bitcoin to accommodate fiat.
That's like saying to the banksters, "You win. We'll play."
The markets are def being manipulated, but tying Bitcoin with fiat is a baaaad idea. Then you just manipulate fiat and BTC will follow along.
Someone mentioned tying Bitcoin (colored coin?) to gold; I still don't think that's a good idea. Bitcoin should be its own thing.
this x 10 |
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