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Author Topic: Confirmation Time is now not a problem at local shops. Buy without any wait  (Read 2276 times)
topesis
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January 17, 2017, 04:56:36 AM
 #21

I doubt it will work, there is a reason for confirmation for transactions, accepting payment of unconfirmation transactions is very risky and if the trade goes south for the shop, he may likely not accept BTC again. At least one confirmation is required for any transaction. What will need is faster transaction and I know we will reach that soon

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Rizky Aditya
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January 17, 2017, 05:39:39 AM
 #22

I am not sure about how it works but what aboutnif a double spend happens ?
I habe only heard of double spending I dont know how its done.

I agree there is still a chance of a double spend attack even if you paid the right tx fee.  Double spend is done by sending another transaction that has higher fee and be confirmed faster than the previous transaction.  I think having Bitcoin notes or physical bitcoin money can solve this but there are more risk involved on that and need a centralized system to make sure that the private key of each physical coin is not compromised.
There definitely is a chance that people can double spend. The amount of gees that is used doesn't really change that. Having higher fees doesn't automatically get your transaction into a block for confirmation.
Just ponder if you have to make up to 10 transactions per day how much you would paid on those transaction? and besides can everyone do that? then mining will be more profitable then
It definitely would make mining a lot more profitable that it currently is and maybe more people would start to invest in Bitcoin mining

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January 17, 2017, 06:11:08 AM
 #23

A minutes ago an idea came to my mind and I hope it will not be wrong.

Most of the people say that buying with bitcoins at local shops will be bothering as they will have to wait for longer at the local shop for the confirmation of their payment in bitcoin to the shop/store. But one thing is in my mind that if a person pay a suitable miner fee for a transaction then that transaction cannot be cancelled. So if a person will pay in front of the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will know that the person have paid a suitable fees then he will provide the good at zero confirmation (without waiting for any confirmation).

What do you think about that idea?

paying normal or even fees in a transaction doesn't make it impossible to double spend, in other words the bold part is wrong. technically when  a bitcoin transaction is not yet confirmed it can be double spent, and even you have to see at least 3 confirmation in normal state of the network to be sure about the receiving of the transaction.

but none of these mean a shop can not trust customers with 0 fees. you just check (automatically of course) that the tx has enough fee and some other criteria to make a risk assessment. it is similar to accepting a check and trusting the person to have money in it.

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January 17, 2017, 08:55:55 AM
 #24

technically when  a bitcoin transaction is not yet confirmed it can be double spent, and even you have to see at least 3 confirmation in normal state of the network to be sure about the receiving of the transaction.
Block re-orgs that long rarely happens. As long as you continually broadcast the transaction, the transaction would be hard to double spend.

Bitpay offers this, if the merchant wants. I believe that most shops do not require any confirmations before accepting the payment. It's a different story for online merchants however.

As long as they pay a reasonable fee, mining pools are willing to accept it, Opt-in RBF not enabled etc, and the transaction is of a small value, merchants wouldn't have any reasons to require a confirmation if they want their customer.














 

 

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January 17, 2017, 09:12:18 AM
 #25

technically when  a bitcoin transaction is not yet confirmed it can be double spent, and even you have to see at least 3 confirmation in normal state of the network to be sure about the receiving of the transaction.
Block re-orgs that long rarely happens. As long as you continually broadcast the transaction, the transaction would be hard to double spend.

Bitpay offers this, if the merchant wants. I believe that most shops do not require any confirmations before accepting the payment. It's a different story for online merchants however.

As long as they pay a reasonable fee, mining pools are willing to accept it, Opt-in RBF not enabled etc, and the transaction is of a small value, merchants wouldn't have any reasons to require a confirmation if they want their customer.

that is correct. and that is why i said in normal state of the bitcoin network. even 1 confirmation is ok if you consider the number of orphaned blocks that happen in a week. the chances are so slim.
but i mostly had this in mind: https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2015-07-04-spv-mining

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January 17, 2017, 09:34:27 AM
 #26

It's true, Bitcoin transactions with a 0.0002 fee are confirmed very quickly. And even credit card payments can be reversed many days later. So even though the transaction is unconfirmed, it's still received "instantly".
This is new to me. I have never heard about this issue before because I rarely pay for a high transaction fee. But how can people differentiate them from double-spending? Because I have seen many double spending with big amount of fee and fraud may use them to trick those sellers


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January 17, 2017, 10:00:00 AM
 #27

technically when  a bitcoin transaction is not yet confirmed it can be double spent, and even you have to see at least 3 confirmation in normal state of the network to be sure about the receiving of the transaction.
Block re-orgs that long rarely happens. As long as you continually broadcast the transaction, the transaction would be hard to double spend.

Bitpay offers this, if the merchant wants. I believe that most shops do not require any confirmations before accepting the payment. It's a different story for online merchants however.

As long as they pay a reasonable fee, mining pools are willing to accept it, Opt-in RBF not enabled etc, and the transaction is of a small value, merchants wouldn't have any reasons to require a confirmation if they want their customer.

that is correct. and that is why i said in normal state of the bitcoin network. even 1 confirmation is ok if you consider the number of orphaned blocks that happen in a week. the chances are so slim.
but i mostly had this in mind: https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2015-07-04-spv-mining
Use a full node and always upgrade your Bitcoin Core to the newest version. If you're using an SPV client, use a upgraded full node to connect to.

Doing this will prevent your client from accepting any invalid blocks.














 

 

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January 17, 2017, 12:40:20 PM
 #28

No vendor is going to let you leave until they actually have the money in their wallet, which means waiting until the transaction has at least a few confirmations.
If bitcoin can come up with some solution for this, it would make it possible to spend in real time in stores.

Unfortunately, for now, this means relying on third-party solutions.
However, even an established company providing escrow by means of prepaid credit cards might be enough to persuade shop owners to accept the payments.

probably that's right. when the vendors do not really understand the idea OP mentioned, or in other words the confirmation system, they maybe not accept this way. just make sure first the vendor understand OP's idea before do such thing.

however, in order to avoid double spending too, I think we still need the other idea.


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January 17, 2017, 12:52:33 PM
 #29

Realistically speaking, how many people would cheat and steal from their local grocery store by exploiting double spending?
Because I don't think it will be that much of a problem at all. There is impossible to collect data about double spending done in brick and mortar shops, unfortunately.
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January 17, 2017, 05:30:40 PM
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Instant, trustable payments require a trusted 3rd party to handle both wallets and they can guarantee the funds are there and give an instant yes/no.
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January 17, 2017, 06:21:37 PM
 #31

I am not sure about how it works but what aboutnif a double spend happens ?
I habe only heard of double spending I dont know how its done.

I agree there is still a chance of a double spend attack even if you paid the right tx fee.  Double spend is done by sending another transaction that has higher fee and be confirmed faster than the previous transaction.  I think having Bitcoin notes or physical bitcoin money can solve this but there are more risk involved on that and need a centralized system to make sure that the private key of each physical coin is not compromised.


physical bitcoin money? then you better just used a Fiat instead. There is no point in having a physical bitcoin money in my  serious opinion lol. If the shop can't receive the bitcoin then simply don't give the product that the customer ordered yet(it would atleast take a customer minutes to double spend that you are saying)


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January 17, 2017, 06:26:08 PM
 #32

the confirmation system is not about speed of confirmation and fees, it is about showing the other side of the TX that you are not spoofing the system and the blockchain.  if i am faking a TX, then who cares how high of a fee i "pay" because there is no fee ever leaving my hands
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January 17, 2017, 11:37:08 PM
 #33

Realistically speaking, how many people would cheat and steal from their local grocery store by exploiting double spending?
You must realize if the system has applied in bitcoin already preventing the double spending.
Because I don't think it will be that much of a problem at all. There is impossible to collect data about double spending done in brick and mortar shops, unfortunately.
At least we are too far from the double spending with applying some confirmation in our transaction.

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.25th November.
.P R E - I C O..
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Yakamoto
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January 18, 2017, 12:06:07 AM
 #34

A minutes ago an idea came to my mind and I hope it will not be wrong.

Most of the people say that buying with bitcoins at local shops will be bothering as they will have to wait for longer at the local shop for the confirmation of their payment in bitcoin to the shop/store. But one thing is in my mind that if a person pay a suitable miner fee for a transaction then that transaction cannot be cancelled. So if a person will pay in front of the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will know that the person have paid a suitable fees then he will provide the good at zero confirmation (without waiting for any confirmation).

What do you think about that idea?
It's not a bad idea, and it will probably have a bit more of a benefit for shops since they lose less money on credit card transactions compared to something like Bitcoin (dollars versus tens of cents).

I don't believe double-spending is a huge issue within the Bitcoin economy yet, but it could find more prevalence in the event we go to something like this. Confirmations still take about 10 minutes.














 

 

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avatar_kiyoshi
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January 18, 2017, 10:12:58 AM
 #35

I think 3rd party is need to manage the risk to avoid double spending, but also I think need more time to confirm the transaction. Use multisig maybe?

Then to proof the transaction have been made, the customer just need to show txid, then list to merchant queue, done.
requester
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February 06, 2017, 02:57:10 PM
 #36

yes its a good idea to pay in front of the shopkeeper but the problem is now a day its normal to see 40000 to 60000 unconfirmed transactions and my friends had encountered reverse payment that is when the transaction is left out of confirmation then many used to get reversed so if that happens then shopkeeper would suffer huge loss as the product would go for free.
xuan87
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February 06, 2017, 03:18:48 PM
 #37

A minutes ago an idea came to my mind and I hope it will not be wrong.

Most of the people say that buying with bitcoins at local shops will be bothering as they will have to wait for longer at the local shop for the confirmation of their payment in bitcoin to the shop/store. But one thing is in my mind that if a person pay a suitable miner fee for a transaction then that transaction cannot be cancelled. So if a person will pay in front of the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will know that the person have paid a suitable fees then he will provide the good at zero confirmation (without waiting for any confirmation).

What do you think about that idea?

Okay, then what is the advantage for the shop owner? it feel a bit risky when you haven't received the money in your hand, if I am the shop owner I will prefer to take cash rather than bitcoin, and then price instability also one of the shop owner problem, for the store that got a slim profit it will be risky to sell the things using bitcoin, because when the price is drop the owner will lost the profit

BillyBobZorton
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February 06, 2017, 03:39:08 PM
 #38

A minutes ago an idea came to my mind and I hope it will not be wrong.

Most of the people say that buying with bitcoins at local shops will be bothering as they will have to wait for longer at the local shop for the confirmation of their payment in bitcoin to the shop/store. But one thing is in my mind that if a person pay a suitable miner fee for a transaction then that transaction cannot be cancelled. So if a person will pay in front of the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will know that the person have paid a suitable fees then he will provide the good at zero confirmation (without waiting for any confirmation).

What do you think about that idea?

Bitcoin will never be viable for instant shopping payments on-chain, it will be resolved by the 2nd layer solutions such as lightning network, so by all means yes, buy and stop worrying about it, it all will get solved eventually. Not that it is a problem nowadays since no one except 4 geeks use it to pay IRL.

..C..
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Kprawn
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February 06, 2017, 03:45:31 PM
 #39

You know as a merchant, you should definitely think about accepting tx's with zero confirmations, if the tx is of very little value...say a

cup of coffee or a donut. The chance that 1000's of people are going to go through all the trouble to double spend for a cup of coffee are

ridiculous. We have a zero confirmation rule in our local pub.... They accept zero confirmation tx's, but they write down our Bitcoin

address against our names and telephone numbers and then they phone you, if the tx's are not going through. {This is only for the

members of our group, because we introduced them to Bitcoin... so this will not work for strangers}  Roll Eyes 

olubams
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February 06, 2017, 03:55:10 PM
 #40

A minutes ago an idea came to my mind and I hope it will not be wrong.

Most of the people say that buying with bitcoins at local shops will be bothering as they will have to wait for longer at the local shop for the confirmation of their payment in bitcoin to the shop/store. But one thing is in my mind that if a person pay a suitable miner fee for a transaction then that transaction cannot be cancelled. So if a person will pay in front of the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper will know that the person have paid a suitable fees then he will provide the good at zero confirmation (without waiting for any confirmation).

What do you think about that idea?

The confirmation is a thing of concern and not only at local shops but even at individual wallets in my own a transaction has entered my wallet for hours now but its still showing zero confirmation out of three. Good for me because I know transactions can be delayed even with the right amount paid as transaction fee but for a local store who sells in cash is now be encourage to use bitcoin I am sure patience is not a quality that will be very much available in this case...



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