Mtgox claim officially turned bitcoin into Ponzi

[cbeast]

Can you imagine a brokerage in the US being able to say that the underlying is 'designed to increase in value' or that it's value 'decreases occasionally'? They couldn't because it would be illegal.

Bitcoin does not represent the assets of any enterprise. Currencies have their value pegged (at some point) by a soverign which Bitcoin doesn't have. Bitcoin is designed to float (which means rise to the top) amongst other currencies. That is axiomatic of the design of cryptocurrency, not merely a prediction.

[aantonop]

I really don't understand how MtGox is still the default exchange. What with all you highly skilled technical enthusiasts devoting so much time an energy to the bitcoin experiment. Oh, wait, that would be actual work and not just a circlejerk. My bad.

The actual work is happening in a number of projects, including "buttercoin" that is a project that launched four days ago and has already built a working trading engine that is ridiculously fast (millions of transactions per second).

https://github.com/buttercoin/buttercoin

It's a fair question to ask: What have you done for bitcoin lately.

It is not fair however to assume that people haven't done anything, or that only those who have have a right to complain or an opinion.

[deepceleron]

It is the little things that tell us the most about people.  Any idiot can sew an extra button or two on each sleeve of a suit jacket to make it look like he paid more for the suit than he did, rent a Mercedes, and buy a Rolex from a pawn shop, but snap at tip a waiter or speak condescendingly respectfully to a janitor and your cover is blown.

Most service workers would have a different opinion of the consideration paid them by the wealthy.

I didn't know that people are counting suit sleeve buttons, I'm calling my Savile Row tailor and telling him to update my pattern to buttons all the way up!


While Tradehill charged a USD fee to both sides of a trade, mtgox earns both BTC and USD in fees. This put about 9000 BTC of fees last month into their wallet. You can make your own argument that this is like a stock broker being paid in the stock he is pumping, but as Bitcoin is a currency, it shows that they are putting confidence in Bitcoin's success and future value by accepting it for their trading service (unlike most traders here, who just want to extract the most USD from BTC). Would you rather have an exchange that doesn't trust BTC enough that they want all their fees paid in USD?

BTW, it did go back up after a crash (to other exchange's prices), which everyone besides mtgox could also predict.

[Manticore]

Can you imagine a brokerage in the US being able to say that the underlying is 'designed to increase in value' or that it's value 'decreases occasionally'? They couldn't because it would be illegal.

Bitcoin does not represent the assets of any enterprise. Currencies have their value pegged (at some point) by a soverign which Bitcoin doesn't have. Bitcoin is designed to float (which means rise to the top) amongst other currencies. That is axiomatic of the design of cryptocurrency, not merely a prediction.

What you are saying is completely irrelevant. If bitcoin was traded on a futures/forex firm's platform, it would be illegal for them to make this statement. Forex firms cannot make these types of statements. An exchange or brokerage house cannot make statements regarding future performance other than there are no guarantees and that past performance is not indicative of future results. A systematic managed forex fund is 'designed to go up in value', but if I stated this, I would be summarily shut down. If this isn't obvious to you, it tells me that you have little professional financial experience because this is a basic, cardinal rule.

Gox is unregulated. These statements, in addition to the bizarre pricing action on their exchange, make me question everything about Mt Gox. Were there ever DDoS issues?

[DeathAndTaxes]

That statement does look like investment advice. It would be better to keep these things separate from statements by the exchange.

This.  Not sure if the statement was intentional or just really bad writing but it should be changed.  Even if MtGox is speculating on the exchange rate internally it has nothing to do with the press release and they shouldn't be providing advice to (potential) clients.

[casascius]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

[aantonop]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

Mike, why would anyone buy them? They have nothing to offer an investor: No technical skills, no management skills, no operational excellence.

Just a brand and domain. If that's what you meant, well yes. Just redirect the domain to a real exchange built by pros, not amateurs

[elux]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

Mike, why would anyone buy them? They have nothing to offer an investor: No technical skills, no management skills, no operational excellence.

Market Power. Dominance. They are worth a lot.

[casascius]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

Mike, why would anyone buy them? They have nothing to offer an investor: No technical skills, no management skills, no operational excellence.

Market Power. Dominance. They are worth a lot.

Long-standing name recognition.  Public perception that MtGox price = bitcoin price (eroding fast, monetize it while it's still good).  Banking relationships.  Real-world security experience.  Willing customers with significant investment in Gox (e.g. bot operators).  Infrastructure that, although is broken, can probably be fixed.

[molecular]

I don't get this thread. I think everyone was confident that after a huge crash, Bitcoin would rise again.  how is that a promise of profit?  you still have to decide when to buy and when to sell.  People will still loose money from bad buy/sell decisions even if Mtgox says something like feeling confident Bitcoin will rise again after a crash.  Btw, that's like stating the sun will rise again tomorrow.. no big revelation.

Why does the exchange operator even concern himself with price... he shouldn't. Neither should he (in my mind) decide to halt trading in order to "cool down the market". He should concern himself with running the exchange smoothly and that's it, not try to influence market participants in any way.

[aantonop]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

Mike, why would anyone buy them? They have nothing to offer an investor: No technical skills, no management skills, no operational excellence.

Market Power. Dominance. They are worth a lot.

Name recognition.  Banking relationships.  Real-world security experience.  Infrastructure that, although is broken, can probably be fixed.

Y'all just said "domain name and brand" a few different ways, as I said in my original message.

As for the "infrastructure", no it cannot be fixed it is much less than worthless. Their code is shit.

No, a smart investor would build on a completely new platform (a real trading engine, EMS/OMS) and just slap on the acquired brand.

[molecular]

Can you imagine a brokerage in the US being able to say that the underlying is 'designed to increase in value' or that it's value 'decreases occasionally'? They couldn't because it would be illegal.

Bitcoin does not represent the assets of any enterprise. Currencies have their value pegged (at some point) by a soverign which Bitcoin doesn't have. Bitcoin is designed to float (which means rise to the top) amongst other currencies. That is axiomatic of the design of cryptocurrency, not merely a prediction.

"float" doesn't necessarily mean "float to the top" and limited supply is not a feature of cryptocurrency. It's a feature of most cryptocurrencies currently in existance.

Also, it was not a "design goal" of bitcoin to keep increasing in value. I'm sure satoshi had that hope, but it's not built into the system because "value" isn't built into the system. Scarcity is built-in, "value" is given by the users, not by technology.

It doesn't suit mtGox well to try to calm the panic by speculating on the price going up. It's just not their job and to do so is equally unprofessional as not getting help with fixing the engine or fixing it in time which might even have prevented the panic in the first place.

[Raoul Duke]

...claimed to generate high returns with little or no risk

Topic starter has the logic of courtney love.

hey fucker, don't insult Courtney, k?

[darkmule]

Calling Bitcoin itself a Ponzi because one exchange has made wildly irresponsible statements is idiotic.

This is definitely evidence, though, that supports staying the hell away from Gox.  This entity is clearly speculating with Bitcoin while purporting to be an exchange, an entity that should be neutral.  I suspect their service will continue to go down whenever it is convenient for them to do so, or when they can profit by exacerbating a panic.

People should seek alternatives to this bullshit site.

[cbeast]

Can you imagine a brokerage in the US being able to say that the underlying is 'designed to increase in value' or that it's value 'decreases occasionally'? They couldn't because it would be illegal.

Bitcoin does not represent the assets of any enterprise. Currencies have their value pegged (at some point) by a soverign which Bitcoin doesn't have. Bitcoin is designed to float (which means rise to the top) amongst other currencies. That is axiomatic of the design of cryptocurrency, not merely a prediction.

"float" doesn't necessarily mean "float to the top" and limited supply is not a feature of cryptocurrency. It's a feature of most cryptocurrencies currently in existance.

Also, it was not a "design goal" of bitcoin to keep increasing in value. I'm sure satoshi had that hope, but it's not built into the system because "value" isn't built into the system. Scarcity is built-in, "value" is given by the users, not by technology.

It doesn't suit mtGox well to try to calm the panic by speculating on the price going up. It's just not their job and to do so is equally unprofessional as not getting help with fixing the engine or fixing it in time which might even have prevented the panic in the first place.

I absolutely understand your positions. I simply don't agree with them. That's my opinion. I am not a currency professional and neither are the folks at Mt Gox.

[moni3z]

Calling Bitcoin itself a Ponzi because one exchange has made wildly irresponsible statements is idiotic.

This is definitely evidence, though, that supports staying the hell away from Gox.  This entity is clearly speculating with Bitcoin while purporting to be an exchange, an entity that should be neutral.  I suspect their service will continue to go down whenever it is convenient for them to do so, or when they can profit by exacerbating a panic.

People should seek alternatives to this bullshit site.

He's just pointing out where the media is getting it's slash pieces about bitcoin from:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/04/bitcoin_is_a_ponzi_scheme_the_internet_currency_will_collapse.html

Gox speculating price will go up, while running an exchange kind of infers they will manipulate the price using their own exchange to make sure it does.

[MPOE-PR]

MtGox needs to be acquired by some big boys...yesterday.

Mike, why would anyone buy them? They have nothing to offer an investor: No technical skills, no management skills, no operational excellence.

Market Power. Dominance. They are worth a lot.

Name recognition.  Banking relationships.  Real-world security experience.  Infrastructure that, although is broken, can probably be fixed.

Y'all just said "domain name and brand" a few different ways, as I said in my original message.

As for the "infrastructure", no it cannot be fixed it is much less than worthless. Their code is shit.

No, a smart investor would build on a completely new platform (a real trading engine, EMS/OMS) and just slap on the acquired brand.

MtGox has a brand in the sense Enron has a brand. It is well known but it is not worth money.

[Armando]

Are exchanges even allowed to say things like that?

Those guys are jokes. It's not their job to speculate on the value, just offer the best service possible.

LOL. Did you ever heard about freedom of speech? Why the hell exchanges can not say their opinion?

[StephenJH]

I really don't understand how MtGox is still the default exchange.

Because when one googles 'buy bitcoins' mtgox is the only exchange on page 1 without scrolling. It is that simple.