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Author Topic: What do you think of Comunism?  (Read 5411 times)
Tyrantt
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February 18, 2017, 10:53:57 AM
 #101

Before you argue that communism is democracy show me at least one example of a successful Communist country. For the beautiful words and slogans lurks the hellish entity. As the Bible says "paved with good intentions the road to hell"

If the Bible says so I guess it must be true xD
Show us one example of a successful Capitalist country jsut so we can laugh a bit ^^

South Korea, Japan, USA, Geramny, Austria, Netherlands, Norway, UAE,etc... so, what about those communist countries? North Korea? Cuba? Vietnam? cmon dude...
None of them are communist, Cuba could some kind of exception but it's still not a real communist state. Or else let's say it's a small communist state that has been at war since its creation...

And you wanna compare the life condition of Cuba to all the countries you've given?
Poverty rate? Access to healthcare?

You call them successful counties? I say you have your own criteria... When you got more than 10% of your population under poverty rate I don't call that "successful"!!!
It's easy to consider a country is successful if you don't care about the 20% poorer...


oh so you're that kind of person:" Real communism hasn't been tried yet" well sorry, but it is...

"And you wanna compare the life condition of Cuba to all the countries you've given?
Poverty rate? Access to healthcare?" and why is that? Maybe because of communism/dictatorship?

haha because it's worse to have 10% who are living in poverty than a whole country living in poverty. lol
And why are they poor? I know why some people in Serbia, that's not that rich of a country, are in povery... and that's because they've dropped out of school, are alcoholics, drug addicts, gamblers,etc... maybe 1-2% are in poverty because of someone elses fault.

Can we stop argue about communism? It is not some hellish system. Communism is good on paper but is unfit for the people.
Communism is worse to implement because of flawed human nature. We can't have ideal system equally good for everyone since humans are flawed.
Humans are greedy, jealousy driven and mostly self-centered individuals. Sooner of later there is always who thing he/she should be the king.

Here's a comment that best describes communism. Good on paper but because not all people are the same and think the same, and that's why communism doesn't/CAN'T work.



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craked5
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February 18, 2017, 11:03:40 AM
 #102

Before you argue that communism is democracy show me at least one example of a successful Communist country. For the beautiful words and slogans lurks the hellish entity. As the Bible says "paved with good intentions the road to hell"

If the Bible says so I guess it must be true xD
Show us one example of a successful Capitalist country jsut so we can laugh a bit ^^

South Korea, Japan, USA, Geramny, Austria, Netherlands, Norway, UAE,etc... so, what about those communist countries? North Korea? Cuba? Vietnam? cmon dude...
None of them are communist, Cuba could some kind of exception but it's still not a real communist state. Or else let's say it's a small communist state that has been at war since its creation...

And you wanna compare the life condition of Cuba to all the countries you've given?
Poverty rate? Access to healthcare?

You call them successful counties? I say you have your own criteria... When you got more than 10% of your population under poverty rate I don't call that "successful"!!!
It's easy to consider a country is successful if you don't care about the 20% poorer...


oh so you're that kind of person:" Real communism hasn't been tried yet" well sorry, but it is...
Yeah the kind of person who actually studied a bit the meaning of words like "communism" or "marxism" and didn't sleep in history classes, and thus I'm fully aware that no, communism hasn't been tried yet. When you have a country in which the dictator owns everything, that's not communism, that's just dictatorship. Even if the guy is a Russian and the new national colour is red Wink
Quote
"And you wanna compare the life condition of Cuba to all the countries you've given?
Poverty rate? Access to healthcare?" and why is that? Maybe because of communism/dictatorship?

haha because it's worse to have 10% who are living in poverty than a whole country living in poverty. lol
And why are they poor? I know why some people in Serbia, that's not that rich of a country, are in povery... and that's because they've dropped out of school, are alcoholics, drug addicts, gamblers,etc... maybe 1-2% are in poverty because of someone elses fault.
It would be far too long to explain you how wrong you are here :/
I can only suggest you to try reading some important books concerning the actual way our society works. like Bourdieu at first, read Marx too as it's damn interesting even if a bit outdated (Internet changed lots of things).

But mainly I'd invite you to reconsider two things:
-First when nearly 20% of your society is poor and doesn't manage to live correctly, it's not because of human defaults, it's a social problem. It's because of how the society is built, it can't be random!
-Second, try to stop thinking that YOUR vision of the world is absolute. You're saying Cuban people are all living in poverty? Well they all had a home, electricity, food and access to one of the best healthcare of the continent (so good that Cuban doctors actually went in south america to help other countries). There is no homeless in Cuba. There is no famine, no one dies in the street because of the cold..


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February 20, 2017, 10:26:02 PM
 #103

In Cuba no one dies of cold because there is warm climate. Look closely what the Communists did in Cuba. The Internet is now just appears, the Cubans only recently allowed to have a microwave and a mobile phone. Private businesses were allowed to engage but still is a very strict control. And much more.
craked5
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February 21, 2017, 11:51:22 AM
 #104

In Cuba no one dies of cold because there is warm climate. Look closely what the Communists did in Cuba. The Internet is now just appears, the Cubans only recently allowed to have a microwave and a mobile phone. Private businesses were allowed to engage but still is a very strict control. And much more.
You explain me how you're expecting Cuba to have internet or microwave while having a strict embargo thanks to USA?
Of course they had trouble with technological development, USA forbid ANY EXCHANGE with the rest of the world including technological ones!

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February 21, 2017, 12:28:49 PM
 #105

When we consider communism is the concept or utopia of a classless society, social equality and freedom of all, then there was never communism in the countries so far. The Soviet Union or China were ruled by Communist Party, yes. But to the original definition it does not really fit, I think.
And when we consider communism as a Rulership system as so far in the countries mentioned then it does not work in the long run, because the people somehow resist it.

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February 21, 2017, 12:47:47 PM
 #106

In Cuba no one dies of cold because there is warm climate. Look closely what the Communists did in Cuba. The Internet is now just appears, the Cubans only recently allowed to have a microwave and a mobile phone. Private businesses were allowed to engage but still is a very strict control. And much more.
You explain me how you're expecting Cuba to have internet or microwave while having a strict embargo thanks to USA?
Of course they had trouble with technological development, USA forbid ANY EXCHANGE with the rest of the world including technological ones!
And what does the President of the United States forbade the Cubans have a microwave? No did Fidel! Same thing with mobile phones. This is an attempt to control their citizens. Communism of course was not there. There was socialism, but that does not help. The doctrine that promotes communism is a utopia. And the methods they use generally a dictatorship.
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February 21, 2017, 12:49:29 PM
 #107

Hi there, it's kinda my first post on this site, and it's strange to start from such a topic, but I would really like to discuss it with people interested in decentralized economies, for reasons that will become apparent if you read what I'll write.
First of all, I'll quote the only analytic comment I've read so far here, since it didn't seem to get the attention it deserved.
I think those who appreciate or advocate communism have given very little thought as to the practical application of this system, and think of only the promised gains; boy wouldn't it be great if everyone was even and wasn't self-interested, if everyone gave what they could and got what they needed--but these are humans we're talking about.

Everyone's looking out for themselves: it's how our ancestors made it, it's how their ancestor's made it, it's how every single chain of evolution down the line managed to make it: every altruistic being to have ever existed has perished as an individual entity, for those beings which were self-interested took more than those being which were not: the altruistic beings gave but did not get back, and the power gained by the self-interested organisms made it very easy to control the altruistic organisms.

Consider the history of communism: the idea, when it was first gaining traction, was that the communist society would be populated by the "new socialist man": this man, as described, would be the altruistic individual who, through cultural training, would be fully accepting of the gateway between capitalism and communism: socialism.  In the societies in which socialism was attempted, in the pursuit of communism, this "new socialist man" never sprouted: it was the same old self-interested genes which every living being needs to thrive.  The system was not designed for this manner of being, it was designed for some other non-existing creature, and as such problems arose: for example, in Soviet Russia--a failed socialist state--you were assigned by the state to perform a given job; people were not paid any more or less based on their performance, nor did they personally own any of the organizations they worked for (ironically), so wound up giving the absolute minimal effort required to get through the day.  Usually this was not a job you particularly enjoyed; the state was not interested in you as an individual, you were simply a cog in the collective.

Performance levels of farms and factories plummeted; necessary parts to make things worked were of terrible quality, as the quotas being met were technically fulfilled, just not very well.  Productivity plummets; all the capital gained from capitalism is drying up, and since people cannot simply go out in a market and fix what needed to be fixed--that was abolished, after all, along with money, and even if it wasn't abolished they were promised 'what they needed' anyway.  Without a price system, nobody knows what's worth what anymore--this makes it impossible to care for finite resources: normally as supply dwindles and demand rises the price rises with it, a natural deterrent to overconsumption, but no such indication existed, so those resources were often spent frivolously, and that's compounded with poor worker performance.

The economy suffered tremendously; people were dropping like flies: if they weren't dying from starvation, they were being killed by their own governments, dying in wars of desperation, and even being genocided just because the men in power could.  Needless to say, they had to go back to some form of partial free market activity to survive, and thus the Soviet Union is no more, and "communist" China is not communist, though its head political party claims to be, and a whole list of other socialist nations stopped being socialist; one would think socialism would've finally died there, but with the magic wand of public education, the lesson was lost on resulting generations who are yet ignorant of the horrors born from the abandonment of capitalism and its principles.

Whatever the methodology is to achieving communism, it's certainly not going to be met politically; politicians necessary demand more power to run a communist society, and the power difference goes entirely against the communist principle of a classless egalitarian society.  The state isn't going to simply melt away, after all; once power is consolidated (i.e. monopolized) under one entity, why would they ever give it up?  Again, the altruist loses, and the self-interested thrive.  Just look at the political classes of North Korea and Venezuela: they thrive while their slaves perish.

But I'll be frank: even if communism were achievable by some other means--say, you create the "new socialist man" in a lab tube who is genetically programmed to act altruistically--they would be demolished by the self-interested people, just like the altruist's ancestors were before their lineage even got started.  Altruists will always be taken advantage of, and from an evolutionary standpoint, it's a quality of weakness.  A strong society is one which is full of self-interested individualists, as there is mutual respect between these "masters": a group of self-interested people create rules to help themselves--and thereby everyone else in the process.  For example, if everyone agrees to the respect of each person's private property, everyone has the incentive to improve their own lives, to keep what they have rightfully earned, which vastly improves their productivity over the notion that their earnings will be seized "for the greater good."  There is no stronger motivator for the base human brain than the notion that it will be overall improved.

Given this, why do people turn to communism in the first place?  It is the exact same motivator: the individual believes they will gain from the promises made by communism; perhaps they envy the rich, and wish to partake in some of their wealth, their "deserved" slice of the pie--such payment will be enough motivation to make the communist system work, they imagine before ever having been through it.  The individual, if short-sighted and ignorant enough, will believe there is everything to gain and nothing to lose, but the individual who is well-informed and who thinks far enough into the future will realize that there is nothing to gain and everything to lose.

As a post-script: there are many ideas on how to democratically implement a public-ownership system.  The only ones I've seen which stood a chance at working out were those limited in scope to a single community (max 300-400 people.)  A small, homogeneous community may very well perform better in a system of local public ownership, but this is very far from the Marxist-Leninist interpretation of a global communist system, which is usually what people refer to when talking about some kind of nationally-implemented socialist system (a stepping stone to the global communism)...one could say such individuals were...national socialists...what was the nickname for national socialists again?  Well it seems they don't like the term Nazi and prefer to call themselves "democratic socialists" instead these days, but the ideas are all the same: tried and tired and beaten but still hanging on.  Perhaps the Internet will help us put the idea to death once and for all.
Now, what we are doing here, is not advocating for past real governments who at some point clamed themselves to be socialist, we're not talking history here, but an ideology, witch, in Marx 's own terms, means an ''ideological struture'' in the people (the ''new man'', witch is at the end the same concept as Nietzsche) and an ''organic infrastructure'', witch is not only the economical distribution of the wealth, but the way we decide to handle production and even resources from a higher strandpoint.
Now, if you really want to talk about ''Communism'', you need to look at the context. Firstly, of a 19th century philosopher, who wrote about the emergent working class that was being grossly exploited, and divide his philosophical views  from his political solution.
Than, you need to look at the situation of the so-called ''communist countries'' at the start of the 20th century.  Young bourgeois in Russia direct the masses with an ideology that talks about them. In China it even really came from the masses themselves. They readapted what they believed communism to be and basically said ''this is what we need, these are the resources we have, let's sync all the efforts to reach the objective'', hence the 5 year plan. And it actually worked pretty well, if you consider that they managed to give something to eat to billions (literally, in China) of people, despite having 2 world wars and a couple of civil ones inbetween in their early stages, at the cost of killing millions of workers in the process. Then the situation in Russia escalated and it just became a dictatorship being at war with the US (not at all communist).
China is different. As a Chinese guy once explained to me, Liu Shaoqi second president of the Republic of China, said at the start of the '60s ''in order to make everyone rich, we need to make some people rich first, so that they can make others rich''. So, capitalism. You may know about the great migration of ''workers'' from the farmland to the cities that happens in China every year, about 300 million people, something that wouldn't have happened without a collective extreme cooperation, and a strong dictatorship to push people trough it. But I do believe they are still planning, someday, somehow, on redistributing that wealth.
After all, both countries took a large amount of dispersed people across a large country and made them ''productive'' in the most capitalistic way you can imagine, passing from a situation where both economy (mostly farmers in a poor land) and politics (aged absolute monarchies) were stagnating, filled the gap of a century of industrialization in 20 years or so, and they're now both competing supereconomies (again, in a purely capitalistic sense).
Cuba is its own little thing instead, it went from 40 years of US guaranteed dictatorship to 70 years of complete embargo. They do with what they have, but they have the highest alphabetization rate in the world.

On the matter of ''culturally imprinting people to be altruistic'', of course all communist regimes had their way of imposing the ''ideology'' that they thought was the most profitable in terms of PRODUCTION (Gulags, Chinese Cultural revolution). What they were dealing with, in the wrong way of course, was the problem of heavily changing either the infrastructure or the common ideology without having an appropriate counterweight in both.
I strongly believe that, if a more equally structured economy (in the broadest sense of the world possible) was enstablished, and people started living in there as a clean slate (in animal psychology, you would say, from the second generation of people who were born and only lived in that condition) they would be really quick to adapt, but, considering it from a politically pragmatic standpoint, you can phrase this point as ''should you change the structure to change the people or should you change the people to change the structure''?
Some of the modern implementations of communist-like ideas rely on smaller communities, just because it's easier to 1. group up people that believe the same as you do and 2. to create a new system with its own rules, witch gives you infinite possibilities (remember America?).
I for one think that a strong changement should come from the people, and now the world is dynamic enough for good ideas to be caught up and developed at massive scales, we should consider opening our views.
Communism is not about making the country a big industry so that we are all the most productive, and it does not need to negate individualism.
There is a pyramid in biology, witch I studied but I've never been able to recall the name of to find it again. It puts every animal species into orders of ''altruism'', and most importantly, of the relational sphere they altruistically behave to. It can go from the individual, to mother-child (even excluding the father), to a small group of competing individuals in a group or different groups cooperating against each other, or there are cases in witch every exemplar of that species will cooperate with everyone else. Some even with other species.
The point is, for me, to abstract this concept to a point in witch you don't need to have a political struggle between classes and ideologies to redistribute wealth arbitrarily, but rather a functioning ecosystem in witch people consider their options (within complete freedom of choice, greater of the one you have with capitalism) working to enrich a more and more large community of people (you < your family < your relatives < your sphere of friends < your district < your city < your region etc...). And, from a political point of view, we should just try to enable this by creating a fair but meritocratic system in witch you do get your bigger part if you're better, but none is deprived of their ''margin'', to put it in trader words.


But this is all history, (and some psychology with it).
What we should talk about is the very IDEA of the communist/socialist way of thinking, and propose implementations instead of judging past ones.
In particular, I'd like to make you think about ''decentralized communism'', a term that I just invented myself.
In my opinion, the only reason politics need to exist is to mediate between economy and society. If you want to think about it purely economically, it's to keep real and economical value close. But, to take it further, it's about making sure everyone, even the poorest people, have what they need to survive.
I won't be talking about the ethics behind this a lot, but just think of this: how free is someone who needs to work at Mc Donalds to pay his rent, and (at least if he doesn't find a way to go around the system), live to work? Think about how many people's lives are controlled by money, the same thing you trade everyday to grow more and then go on to do your own thing.
Now, I don't believe that the solution can come solely from a monetary redistribution. What we need is a system that produces and provides basic products automatically, and sets the ''standard'' for people to grow on.
The basic problem with communist governments is that they were forcefully centralized. In order to coordinate the country, they needed to have it in their hands. Now the situation is different. Think, as an example, at how automation could be implemented stately to reduce wealth gap.
The same jobs I was referring before, the Mc Donalds cashier, the mechanical worker, could now be fully automatized. I always here the complain ''don't you think a manual job is respectable as anyone else?'', but I personally think working a job that a machine could do is even more demeaning.
The reason we can't implement automation right now is because it would take over those same jobs, creating an incredible social crisis in the present situation. These jobs need to exist only for someone to do them and get paid just what they need to survive. China is going around this, funding billions into automation, but they're just cheating by putting all of that production into export, with no real gain for the individual.



And this is where it gets interesting, and where I would like an opinion out of you, to the point in which if this post gets ignored I will be creating a new topic about it.

What I think we should be looking at is a decentralized resource based economy, in which we have a definite supply of primal resources, a ''blockchain'' of ways to turn them into products, and an expected trend of REAL demand of the product themselves. I'm now looking into ways to structure a monetary economy around (and beyond) the original ideological standpoint of ''creating an infrastructure that provides people their basic needs'', which is something you can only do industrially.
Talking it from a cryptocurrency perspective (since I'm also looking for real means to achive this in a restricted setting), I would consider making a whole submarket of coins, each one with their own tie with a real product, their own trendlines and economical structures. This way, you could for example arbitrage the price of food to stay low, while maintaining the robotical field as a competitive investing market. What you would sell, at this point, wouldn't be the product itself, as much as the idea, the blueprint of real product you are trying to ''replicate on the blockchain''. The producing tools are automatized and free for everyone on the blockchain to use (with limits due to facts real resources are finite), like a big net of 3D printers witch get inputs from the blockchain itself.

I will not start talking now about the distribution systems, but I think you can see how ''communism'', as far as people who define themselves as communist right now, can be far more actual than the 18th century revolutionary ideology you're referring to.
Please lead the argument over to the future instead of the past.
As a friend of mine once told me, ''Capitalism is the best way to thrive in scarcity, communism is the best way to handle a wealthy nation''.
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February 24, 2017, 06:32:17 PM
 #108

In Cuba no one dies of cold because there is warm climate. Look closely what the Communists did in Cuba. The Internet is now just appears, the Cubans only recently allowed to have a microwave and a mobile phone. Private businesses were allowed to engage but still is a very strict control. And much more.
You explain me how you're expecting Cuba to have internet or microwave while having a strict embargo thanks to USA?
Of course they had trouble with technological development, USA forbid ANY EXCHANGE with the rest of the world including technological ones!
And what does the President of the United States forbade the Cubans have a microwave? No did Fidel! Same thing with mobile phones. This is an attempt to control their citizens. Communism of course was not there. There was socialism, but that does not help. The doctrine that promotes communism is a utopia. And the methods they use generally a dictatorship.
What?
No... Are you dumb? People don't have a microwave not because Castro forbid it but because the US blocus prevent any microwave to reach the island!!!

That's like so obvious I don't even understand how some people can not understand xD

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Grdas130979
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The truth is out there


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February 24, 2017, 06:57:02 PM
 #109

To me its a great theory, maybe some day people become ready to live truly united and unselfish, but for the time being it cannot be implemented. Whereever left sides prevailed people lived in worse conditions, thats the truth. We live in a world where capitalism rules.

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February 24, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
 #110

Communism goes hand in hand with dictatorship. In a system where the central government controls everything it gives rise to corrupt and influential people in high positions. They trample on human rights of their citizens with no care at all.
craked5
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February 24, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
 #111

Communism goes hand in hand with dictatorship. In a system where the central government controls everything it gives rise to corrupt and influential people in high positions. They trample on human rights of their citizens with no care at all.

Unless the government is controlled directly by the people
In this case you can't have heavy corruption!

Casanova18
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February 25, 2017, 02:53:52 PM
 #112

Communism is a rigid vertical of power. This leads to mutual responsibility and breeds corruption. Moreover cruelly destroyed any dissent. Dictatorship is the inevitable companion of the builders of communism.
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February 25, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
 #113

Communism goes hand in hand with dictatorship. In a system where the central government controls everything it gives rise to corrupt and influential people in high positions. They trample on human rights of their citizens with no care at all.

Unless the government is controlled directly by the people
In this case you can't have heavy corruption!

"Unless" and we all know such a thing doesn't exist and can't exist. Communism and Marxism look good on paper, but don't work in practise because of those same people.



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BADecker
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February 26, 2017, 03:55:42 AM
 #114

What do I think of Communism? You spelled it wrong.     Grin
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February 26, 2017, 05:51:48 PM
 #115

Communism goes hand in hand with dictatorship. In a system where the central government controls everything it gives rise to corrupt and influential people in high positions. They trample on human rights of their citizens with no care at all.

Unless the government is controlled directly by the people
In this case you can't have heavy corruption!

"Unless" and we all know such a thing doesn't exist and can't exist. Communism and Marxism look good on paper, but don't work in practise because of those same people.

Doesn't exist but why couldn't it exist?
How do you know that something like this which is just a rather logical idea IMHO can't exist?

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Maximilian_333
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February 26, 2017, 06:42:48 PM
 #116

Communism is a genocidal ideology which covers his designs with beautiful words. Communism is an example of biblical wisdom, "Good intentions pave the road to hell." I don't know of any country which flourished under the rule of the Communist government.
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February 27, 2017, 06:46:35 AM
 #117

Communism goes hand in hand with dictatorship. In a system where the central government controls everything it gives rise to corrupt and influential people in high positions. They trample on human rights of their citizens with no care at all.

Unless the government is controlled directly by the people
In this case you can't have heavy corruption!

"Unless" and we all know such a thing doesn't exist and can't exist. Communism and Marxism look good on paper, but don't work in practise because of those same people.

Doesn't exist but why couldn't it exist?
How do you know that something like this which is just a rather logical idea IMHO can't exist?

Because people have better things to do than be a 24/7 politician, and will have to delegate their "vigilante powers" into someone, and that someone will become the corrupted...
Don't think politics are or have the solution for everything, pretty often it's more part of the problem than of the solution!

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Crystal11
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February 27, 2017, 10:28:50 AM
 #118

Because people have better things to do than be a 24/7 politician, and will have to delegate their "vigilante powers" into someone, and that someone will become the corrupted...
Don't think politics are or have the solution for everything, pretty often it's more part of the problem than of the solution!

indeed  Cheesy
for 2 weeks romanians had to go out on streets this winter . But i'm glad that i was on streets too to defend our poor democracy  Grin
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/opinion/romanians-against-corruption.html


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craked5
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February 27, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
 #119

Because people have better things to do than be a 24/7 politician, and will have to delegate their "vigilante powers" into someone, and that someone will become the corrupted...
Don't think politics are or have the solution for everything, pretty often it's more part of the problem than of the solution!

indeed  Cheesy
for 2 weeks romanians had to go out on streets this winter . But i'm glad that i was on streets too to defend our poor democracy  Grin
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/opinion/romanians-against-corruption.html



Of course we can do it.

It's just that it helps people in power to tell us "we're more skilled, you don't have the knowledge nor the time"
While believe me, we have both!

BCEmporium
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February 27, 2017, 04:20:03 PM
 #120

Of course we can do it.

It's just that it helps people in power to tell us "we're more skilled, you don't have the knowledge nor the time"
While believe me, we have both!

Are you a teenager?

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